By BEN SMITH & JOSH GERSTEIN, POLITICO | 2/3/11
As Israeli leaders worriedly eye the protests and street battles in neighboring Egypt, they’ve been dismayed to find that the neoconservatives and hawkish Democrats who are usually their most reliable American advocates are cheering for Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s fall.
The Egyptian autocrat has kept his side of a chilly peace agreement with Israel for thirty years, permitting an era of relative stability in the Jewish state. And as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made clear in a cautious speech to the Knesset Wednesday, Israel is deeply worried what will happen to that relationship when Mubarak departs.
“We expect any government of Egypt to honor the peace. Moreover, we expect the international community to expect any government of Egypt to honor the peace. This must be clear, along with the discussions about reform and democracy,” he said.
Other prominent Israeli voices are wondering why President Barack Obama didn’t back Mubarak against massive protests that – while not focused on Israel – featured some signs depicting Mubarak with a Star of David on his forehead.
“You should have also thought about Israel before hurrying to call upon Mubarak to go,” Dov Weissglass, a former advisor to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, wrote, addressing the Obama administration. “It is difficult to think of more serious harm to Israel’s security than the collapse of the peace accord with Egypt.”
But while a few American conservatives like former U.N Ambassador John Bolton share the same qualms as Weissglass, many of Israel’s most prominent supporters – some of whom are regularly accused of putting Israel’s interests before those of the U.S. – dismiss those worries.
In particular, neoconservatives such as Weekly Standard Editor Bill Kristol, Bush National Security Council official Elliott Abrams, and scholar Robert Kagan are essentially saying good riddance to Mubarak and chiding Obama mainly for not making the same sporadic push for democracy as President George W. Bush.
“If [the Israelis] were to say, ‘This is very worrying because we don’t know what the future will bring and none of us trust the [Muslim] Brotherhood’ – we would all agree with that. But then they then go further and start mourning the departure of Mubarak and telling you that he is the greatest thing that ever happened,” said Abrams, who battled inside the Bush administration for more public pressure on Arab allies to reform.
“They don’t seem to realize that the crisis that now exists is the creation of Mubarak,” he said. “We were calling on him to stop crushing the moderate and centrist parties – and the Israelis had no sympathy for that whatsoever.”
Abrams, in the Bush years, was among the leaders of a neoconservative side of the Republican foreign policy battles, a side associated with a robust willingness to use U.S. military force – as in the invasion of Iraq – a pro-Israel bent, and a universal democratic vision that insisted that bringing democracy to the Arab world, one way or another, would result in a region friendlier to the U.S. and Israel in the long run.
More traditional conservatives have typically been warier of American military enganglements, and more intersted in preserving the status quo among U.S. allies – even when those regimes didn’t observe democratic norms.
The amount of daylight between Israel and advocates such as Abrams illustrates something important about neoconservatives, according to Noah Pollak, executive director of the Emergency Committee for Israel, a Republican-allied group Kristol chairs .
“This has always been a tension between the Israelis and the neocons — the neocons believe in the universality of liberal democracy and the Israelis don’t,” said Pollak, who argues that Israel, with Egypt looming on its border, has a right to be nervous.
“Israel is acting very much like a normal country in that it is acting much in its own interest, and its interest is not having the [Israeli military] take a posture where they have to consider the possibility of war with Egypt,” he said.
But while some of the most staunchly pro-Israel members of Congress say they understand Israel’s concerns, they are hopeful the Egypt crisis will end well for Israel and the U.S.
“Unfortunately, Israel has been seared by the experience recently by seeing democracy elect their enemies – you’ve had voters in Gaza vote for Hamas, you’ve had voters in Lebanon vote for Hezbollah. So, when people say ‘democratic movements,’ it makes some in Israel nervous,” said Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.).
“But, overall, it’s got to be seen as a good thing where you have a big Arab state having a tumultuous uprising where it’s not ‘death to Israel’ and President Obama being burned in effigy.”
“The US and Israel both have a comfort level with a pretty bad guy – the question is do you try to buy three or four more years with this guy or do you try go get to the front of this parade for democracy and reform as uncomfortable as it is?” Weiner asked.
“To the extent that some people in Israel may think that Mubarak’s going to stick around – that’s obviously not correct. The only question is how fast he goes, what succeeds him,” said Rep. Jerry Nadler, another New York Democrat. “Some people in Israel knowing that what succeeds him may not be nice may be trying to deny the reality.”
Still, even those cheering Mubarak’s departure are clear-eyed about the possibility that what comes after him may be worse for Israel. They seem willing to take that chance.
“Depending on how things evolve, there’s a very real possibility that the government that emerges will be less willing to cooperate with Israel on a number of practical measures [but] it’s not foreordained that they would undo the Israel-Egypt peace treaty,” said Robert Satloff of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, who signed a declaration calling for free elections and an end to the decades-long state of emergency in Egypt.
Despite the vocal – and to Israelis, shocking – opposition to Mubarak in some quarters, some of those generally considered neoconservatives themselves are actually split on the question of whether it’s wise to encourage the demise of pro-Western Arab autocrats, several analysts said.
A former official at the pro-Israel group AIPAC, Steve Rosen, said the turmoil in Egypt has exposed a “debate going on beneath the surface” of the pro-Israel movement.
“The blunt reality is our alliances in the Arab world are with a thin strata of the ruling elite,” Rosen said. “We face mass movements in virtually every Muslim country that are profoundly hostile to the West and very uninterested in peace with Israel and many other things we’re interested in. When you start talking about democratization, you’re really unleashing these forces.”
Rosen says the optics of being against a shift toward democracy are poor, so those who view keeping the status quo as the wiser or more realistic course often keep quiet. “They are there, but they’re muted. It becomes hard to defend repression and say, ‘Go crack some heads.’ It’s hard to say ‘We want an undemocratic autocrat’ or ‘We don’t stand for freedom.’ The ‘freedom agenda’ is a compelling idea,” Rosen said. “It’s hard to defend Mubarak’s police.”
And indeed, while voices cheering Mubarak’s fall can be found across the political spectrum, the Israeli-style fears of the future can be found largely on the margins, and are more likely to be found in the old-line conservative – not neoconservative—foreign policy circles that sometimes clashed with the neocons inside the Bush Administration.
Bolton, one of those conservatives, urged greater caution on the White House’s part.
“I just heard [White House Press Secretary Robert] Gibbs doing everything but saying that the president in his conversation with Mubarak called on him to resign immediately. Now, we’ve got violence in the streets of Cairo. I think you’ve got to be humble and prudent in what you do here,” he said.
Bolton declined to speculate on why so few conservative voices are speaking out in favor of the status quo, or even slowing the process of change in the region, but suggested some naivete is at work.
“There sure is a lot of Wilsonianism going around,” he said. “The Wilsonians are out there trying to make the world safe for democracy. I adhere to Theodore Roosevelt’s response to that: first, we must make the world safe for ourselves. I think we have to look out for American strategic interests and the absolute foundation of that is our interest in the stability of the Egypt-Israel peace agreement of 1979.”
“If that thing collapses, the rock of stability in the region could easily come unstuck. Once that happens, it’s hard to predict the consequences,” Bolton warned.
Asked whether he thought the Bush administration’s “democracy agenda” was on the verge of being realized, or at least tested, Bolton replied: “It wasn’t my vision…..I think, mostly, we don’t know much of anything about what direction these societies will take.”
Bolton also suggested that some of the rhetoric about democracy in recent days had a pie-in-the-sky, academic tone. “I’m not interested in classroom discussions of democracy versus autocracy. Put me down in favor of democracy, but I’m worried about America and the region.”
And at least one pro-Israel Democrat in Congress shares some of this skepticism.
“The reality is this: Democracy as we think of it and democracy as it is often played out in the Middle East are two different things,” said Nevada Rep. Shelley Berkley.
A longtime nemesis of the neocons, Zbigniew Brzezinski, said he didn’t care much about the stand they are taking on the unrest in Egypt and the broader region, but he couldn’t resist a quick dig.
“I don’t take neocon views very seriously, except when they result in U.S. policy which, in turn, means it turns into a disaster,” he said, a view he’s elsewhere attached to his criticism of the Iraq war.
Brzezinski, a national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter and now a scholar at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said he doubted the U.S. had as much control over developments as the neocon democracy advocates were suggesting. “It seems to me our power is quite limited,” he said.
But Brzezinski also said Mubarak deserves some degree of deference from the U.S., and suggested a scenario where Mubarak “ends up in some dignified fashion, which he deserves because of his cooperation with the United States and deserves probably for two-thirds of the 30 years of his rule.”
“It probably requires some sort of coalition government in the meantime to reassure the masses that wants democracy and freedom that [his pledge not to run again] is not a trick,” Brzezinski said.
Bolton said his views on the wisdom of overturning pro-Western governments like Egypt are driven in large part by a 1979 Commentary article by Jeane Kirkpatrick, “Dictatorships and Double Standards.” The essay, criticizing the Carter administration’s approach to unrest in Iran and Nicaragua, helped Kirkpatrick win the job of U.N. ambassador under President Ronald Reagan.
“We went from two authoritarian governments that were pro-American to two governments that were even more authoritarian and anti-American,” Bolton observed. “Good intentions only get you so far. In a complicated, highly uncertain situation where, in this case Egypt, the U.S. has huge strategic interests, we’re rolling the dice on the Jimmy Carter theory of democracy.”
And in Jerusalem Wednesday, the criticism of American optimism that Egypt – Muslim Brotherhood and all – could find its way to secular, open democracy was even more heated.
The Israeli scholar Barry Rubin summed up the local view of Washington’s high-mindedness: “I have an idea for the prophets of Muslim Brotherhood moderation: Please experiment with the lives of people closer to your own homes.”
No MSM source has involved Carter in Afghanistan. Your Kosovo allegations are pure fiction. Kosovo was formed based on the same principles as Israel – to provide a safe sanctuary for European Muslims being slaughtered by Christian Serbs and Croats in the old Yugoslavia.
Only for those, like you apparently, who are ignorant of what went on there since the invasion of Iran and Kuwait.
This is pure self-serving fiction. The US cannot make Israel do anything it disagrees with.
What you have written above is clearly ignorant and silly. The US media is not a monolith.
You don’t seem to know much about the facts of anything.
Actually, US leaders and at this point even MSM sources confirm that Carter hired jihadists to attack secularists in Afghanistan. And the US has been printing and shipping jihadist textbooks over there for years.
Your Kosovo story is fiction.
Iraq is hard to decipher. MSM sources confirm that Saddam rigidly enforced religious secularism. US media did state that he paid palestinian Arabs to kill Jews. This was plausible–or it’s possible that this was BS designed to get American Jews on board with US policy over there. In any case, there’s no evidence that his regime was as brutal as what is in place now, for all stories document that Christians are being killed and cleansed routinely.
The ethnic cleansing of gaza was pressured by the US. To think that any country would just voluntarily choose to cleanse its own citizens without outside coercion is silly. Condi was particularly active in her role. Evidently the higher-ups figured that having her shill for Islam would go over better than having Bush do so.
US media has been lying for the government since at least WWII. This is well documented. To deny such is just silly.
Regarding the teaparty and conservatives, it is likely true that most support Israel. Most people support human rights, not everyone can be won over to support the eradication of human rights even if the MSM keeps presenting story after story about the rudeness being experienced by the eradicators of human rights.
Not true. Many of the American founding fathers were not Christians but deists. The US Constitution was based on Judeo-Christian PRINCIPLES, not on the Bible per se. This is why it is not a Christian Constitution, but a secular constitition.
You seem as confused as Jrob. Most Americans support Israel, most because it is the right thing to do, not because of anything the Bible says.
You have just made this up out of whole cloth. The Indians rejected the British. Only 2 1/2% of Indians are Christian. The Indian Constitution was not based on anything in the Bible.
What the hell are you talking about? Democracy is a concept based on the teachings of Christ, who taught that all men are created equal. Jews don’t believe that all men are created equal. They don’t even accept the New Testament, which is the part of the Bible which has the humanitarian philosophies of love, forgiveness and redemption based on the teachings of Christ.
Jrob, you are deeply steeped in lies and falsehoods. The US did no such thing. Afghanistan was run by the Taliban, not some secular government. Kosovo was formed as a Muslim enclave for the safety of non-radical Muslims who were being eliminated by the Christian Serbs and Croats in an attempted genocide. Iraq was a brutal dictatorship that was menacing Israel, paying bounties to the families of suicide bombers. The decision to withdraw from Gaza was made by Israel, which was not occupying Gaza, not the US.
The last time I checked the US media was dominated by liberals and was not controlled by the US government.
Not true. You may be referring to the liberals and Democrats. The Tea Party movement and American conservatives are squarely behind Israel.
AmericanEagle writes:
The two largest democracies in the world by population are the US and India. The US at it founding was overwhelmingly a christian nation, whose moral beliefs were based on biblical teachings, many of whose founding fathers believed biblical principles were necessary to a stable, functional, just and free government and society. The US democratic-republic became great but is currently in decline as it is rejecting biblical morality and ignoring God’s warning regarding the Jewish People, their land and Nation.
The religion(s) of India are not based on the bible but their nation and their governmental philosophies were greatly influenced by the British Empire which was a christian nation, whose governmental philosophies were influenced by the bible. The British Empire declined when it rejected biblical morality and ignored God’s warning regarding the Jewish People, their land, and Nation – see Genesis 12:3. When India gained independence many Muslims rebelled forming Pakistan and from which later rebelled Bangladesh, both of these new Islamic nations failed to establish stable democracies since they applied Koranic principles.
The only democracies in the middle east are Israel and Turkey. Israel is obviously more influenced by the Tanach than any other nation. Its democracy is stable, its economy is strong, its scientific and technological achievements simply awesome, its military is strong, its people are happy and free. Israel is a regional power now and I believe will become a world power despite its small size.
Turkey’s democracy was established by Ataturk who studied and was influenced by the institutions of a christian Europe. The political institutions of Europe were obviously to varying degrees influenced by christian understandings (and/or misunderstandings) of biblical morality and its application to civil institutions and government philosophies. Turkey’s democracy operated only as protected by the secular/western influenced military and is now dying because the people are rejecting the influence of the west in favor of the political/religious teachings of Islamism.
AmericanEagle the evidence is overwhelming. The influence of the Bible is a blessing to nations. Direct influence is best, a God-fearing populace that diligently reads, studies, and applies the Bible or Tanach to all aspects of their lives and government. Indirect influence is a very poor second best, a people influenced by biblical morality and governmental principles to varying degrees but not truly God-fearing believers and not well-versed in the Bible or Tanach.The blessings of liberty come from obeying God’s word. I stand by my position:
The error of secular conservatives is that they put their faith in democracy – not understanding that the morality, laws, and religion of the bible is the only stable foundation for a just, prosperous, and peaceful society and nation.
Eagle, you are deeply steeped in mass media lies. The US deliberately desecularized Afghanistan, deliberately desecularized Kosovo (run by Muslim thugs, albeit not the robe-wearing type of Muslims), ‘accidentally’ desecularized Iraq, and ‘accidentally’ desecularized Gaza by pressuring Israel to cleanse gaza of Jews.
The US worked closely with SCIRI on Iraq war strategies, and International Community NGOs (including the IDLO) are all about spreading Islamic supremacist ideology.
In short, the facts on the ground and the documents in Suitland, MD (regarding cold war era BS propaganda) confirm all I’ve stated. You do have empty rhetoric on your side: that the country that is obsessed with cleansing Jews and creating Muslim terrorist states on land that belongs to Jews is actually acting in opposition to Islamic terrorism. IMO, this is absurd.
Palestine is the perfect litmus to see who is lying. US media puts more effort into putting out sob stories on Islamist killers than on getting people to support their victims (who are Jews, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.). US media and leaders provide approximately zero lip service towards getting their followers to support the victims of Islamist terrorism.
The US has not installed any Islamists anywhere. In fact, the war on terror is against mostly Islamists. Hamas was elected unfortunately by the people of Gaza which cannot be honestly be called a democracy. Based on your twisted logic someone could blame Israel for this because they withdrew from Gaza. I guess you will blame the US for that too as if Israel is a state of the US and not a sovereign nation.
I have never heard such nonsense. Clearly you do not support democracy. What countries do with their democracies is up to them. There is no instance of any real multi-part democracy attacking another democracy.
No “reasonable” man would write:
The two largest secular democracies in the world are not based on the Bible.
We still don’t know what will evolve in Egypt – notwithstanding your preductions.
Politicians should not be pushing for any particular technology. The ethanol fiasco should have taught us this.
dan friedman says:
Partially true you are reflecting the past but not the present or the future:
We move again our bases in the Negev some of which were moved from the Sinai, back to the Sinai, so that many boots on the ground will naturally be there and not in the confined small spaces now in the Negev. It will provide air space over friendly land mass for our air force to train rather than sending them to Turkey ,Greece Romania etc. Moving forward based to Sinai moves our Air force hundreds of miles closer to our two most existential enemies Egypt and Iran closer by hundreds of miles which in actual operations could be a critical factor.
Costs of additional manpower easily covered by revenues extracted from Sinai: Oil, Gas, Magnesium, cobalt, Copper, low grade uranium to name a few. Then there is tourism which under Israeli control would boom.
Strategic min depth lacking today is translated into saving many lives in time of war. What price do you place on that? ( since it could be my life I place a high value on SD).
Modern technology reduces the number of boots on the ground needed for control. GPS, Sat imaging and tracking. Static Balloons with cameras etc.
FYI: Sinai is more than double Israel’s size. Controlling the Sinai means we control all of Gaza, no more tunnels no more terror.
If Israel were to revamp her military doctrine to one which relies on nukes and not defensive hi Tech mostly useless toys, we could do with a min of manpower requirements as they would become mostly irrelevant. Concentrate on delivery systems and more nuke armed subs. As I have said against Pali Terrorists all we need is napalm. Efficient and very cheap.
PS Hymie give sources for your Stats on Israels mil. personnel inductees.
All the pontification on Israpundit is interesting, and Robert in Karnei offers an excellent overview of Israel’s situation. Arab oil is not the only threat Israel faces, but Arab oil funds much of the military and political threat against Israel. There was a very important announcement in the news a few days ago. Friends of Israel should be influencing their governments to make the most of this technology advance.
General Motors has just funded a small battery company in California that is exploiting technology from the DOE Argonne National Lab to create an electric car battery at least twice as good (twice the range for the same or lesser price) as the current crop. This is enough of an advance to give electric cars serious market place viability.
There may still be a need for subsidies, but the prospect of signficant deployment of electric cars has taken a major step forward.
Americans should be contacting their representatives in Congress to actively push the rapid adoption of electric cars (as well as free up American drilling because the IC engine isn’t going away soon for larger vehicles).
Jerry:
For Israel to be totally self sufficient is easier said than done. To start with Israel has a very small (though mighty) standing , permanent military. no more than 175-180k. In times of national emergency it has at its disposal a fairly large reserve force of close to a half a million. Deploying such a number is difficult and requires time and a huge expense. But to occupy an area as large as the Sinai Peninsula, which is as large as Israel proper, would involve a very big contingent of feet on the ground.
Israel is paying a serious price for its peculiar population mix.
– The Arab population, comprising 1.4 million don’t serve.
– The heredis (approx 1 mil) don’t serve.
– The ex Soviet Jews, in large numbers dodge the draft.
– The largest number of people making an unofficial aliyah in recent years are illegal Africans, also don’t serve.
Included in the Israeli military are women who provide important back up duties, in non combat roles. They do very good work but would not involve themselves in direct occupation tasks.
Israel in military matters, like almost every nation on earth, require some outside assistance. The very large nations, and America is a good example, stills finds that coalition are in most instances necessary.
Israel is helping Mubarak because for better or for worse, he’s a lot better than the Islamists that the US has been installing and helping. I trust that Bibi is acting on what is best for Israel. I trust nothing that is spoon fed to me in big-lie US media.
Ted stated:
The whole ‘fighting the commies and spreading democracy’ line is largely BS propaganda that has been propagated in the US since the 1950s, whereby US intelligence liberated captive nation nazis that were being tormented by ‘commies’. Chris Simpson’s Blowback is among the better books documenting this government issued BS. Spreading democracy often equaled liberation of fascists. For example, Bush’s push for democracy included the creation of a hamas gestapo state in Gaza, a continuation of Clinton’s KLA nazi state in Kosovo, and the desecularization (Islamification) of Iraq, to name a few.
I’ve not read any lengthy tomes on Irving Kristol and the ‘neocons’, but if they were ever a force in US politics, that time ended LONG ago. Now, they’re a bunch of ghosts used as Jewish conspiracy fodder and a means of inciting hatred of Israel. The more the US MSM trumps up the great powers of the neocons (minus the Muslim one Khalilzad, natch), the more certain types of people get sick of Israel.
American Eagle writes…
AmericanEagle confuses “predicting the future” which no man can do with “predicting the obvious” which any reasonable man can do. There is extremely little chance of Egypt transitioning to a secular, multiparty system similar to Turkey (do I have to remind AmericanEagle that the secular, multiparty system of Turkey is dying as we speak). The rising political faction in Egyptian politics is the Muslim Brotherhood. The rising movement in the Islamic world is Islamism. No amount of wishful thinking will change these facts.
I believe we have wasted far too much time going around with analysis as to what are the objectives of the present administration with regards to Israel. That is as transparent as it comes. The school registration of Soetoro/Obama in Indonesia is a truthful representation of that individual’s adherences and the rest is just the corollary.
He and his either willing or hapless followers crafted the gradual conversion of various regional countries into Islamic virulent grade styled entities. Egypt is another link on that plan. Soetoro desires to destroy Israel using that set of proxies.
We, in turn, must do whataver is required to prevent that.
Since the “situation” continues to be in a state of flux, and since the outcome is still uncertain, the position of some neoconsevatives (whom I happen to support) aught not to give us conniptions (or an opportunity to settle old scores.) We don’t know as yet how this connundrum is going to play out, but I am certain of one thing: that when it counts, the neoconseravtives will find themselves in the ranks of defenders and true friends of Israel.
Egypt now. Until last week, I thought all I had to worry about was Iran, Hamas, Hizbollah, Turkey, Iraq, Al Queda, Lebanon, Syria, BDS, Obama, Israel Apartheid Week, The EU, South American Banana Repulics supporting a Palestinian State, Suicide bombing, George Galloway, 1-1/2 Billiom Muslims…now Egypt…I thought we covered that issue when we gave them back the Sinai and flattered them by telling them they did good in 1973 even though they lost tens of thousands in another useless attempt to wipe us off the map !!
It is truly unfortunate that Yoav Galant, an expert on the southern command got caught with his finger in the cookie jar. His selfishness may turn out to cost us dearly in terms of lost expertise if we have to go back and defend against Egypt. But that is just another corrupt poilitician that we must not think about at this point. True, as Jerry points out we may have to take back the Sinai, but that will be up to the Egyptians if and when they move troops back over the canal. The US may nor be ready for us to have to defend our position but as was pointed out, we have to look after ourselves. Unfortunately an attack like 67 on the Egyptian airforce will neither be a surprise or as free of costs as it was in June 67. We are talking about a much better Egyptian army even though the leadership, if it is the Muslim Brotherhood, will be far from the likes of Sadat or Ghanem.
The US should be criticized in its zeal to turn countries into democracies before they are ready to be responsible demacracies. All the countries in the Middle-East have been innundated with hatred and Muslim propoganda for the last decades. How can they be expected to vote intelligently when all they have heard are lies, fabrications and falsifications of history. Once Mubarak is gone, it will be a race between worse, worser and worst. If you were disappointed with the democratic swing in Gaza, wait until Cairo elects a slate of Barberians with their trigger fingers on sophisticated US weaponry. And only a few minutes away as the crow flies to boot ! True it will be a democracy but then again wasn’t Hitler elected democratically in Germany before he took over and caused the death of say 50 million including appeasers, isolationists, weapoms suppliers – well you know that tune that the world danced to so well in the 30’s when the threat was also disregarded.
So what is Israel to do about the situation?
Does it really matter if we do, don’t do, or just wait as they continue to do us?
Israel has been handed the opportunity to show real leadership over the past decade dozens of times and has failed in almost evey opportunity. Perhaps the destruction of the nuclear operations in Syria could be considered a good thing, but it is a setback at best. You all know the list of the accomplishments and the negative efforts. Suffice it to say that the only reason we have not been wiped off the map in the last 10 years is because of the total ineptitude of the billion or so Muslims who are just waiting to have the means to do it.We all know that if they had the chance, they would “do us” if not completely, then at least enough to claim some sort of moral victory…they would be happy to take out a few hundred thousand of us in the center of the country even at the cost of us wiping out a few of their cities. After all isn’t that what they have said they want to do?
And in reality who really knows how far Iran is away from that fateful moment. Its not a matter of if, its only a matter of time. And if not Iran, certainly someone else in the next 5 or ten years anyways. Could it be that wacky Quadaffi isn’t working on something to imortalize him before he shuffles off this earth? ike he really cares what happens to his people once he’s done with his 75 or so years.
The good news is that we are still here some 3500 years later despite all the threats and catastrophes we’ve had. Eighty percent got wiped out in the Exodus and we survived. Some 50% (?) in the Chmielnitzky pogroms. Six million by Hitler….I know its not good to depend on God to pull our proverbial bacon out of the fire time and time again, but its not looking good for Netanyahu, Livni, and the others who want to lead us into the Iranian Nuclear age.
I guess we just have to stay tuned and see if we can count on our enemies strupidity or maybe we will grow a pair and finally stand up to the terrorist hate mongers and show them that we have had enough of their crap. This bull about occupations, obstacles to peace, 67 borders, green lines, eastern Jerusalem are all garbage used to cover one simple indisputable fact- they hate us, want to annihilate us, and will say anything and do anything no matter how outragous to accomplish that. They even have half the Israeli journalists and academics believing that pile of manure.
I think we are going to be in for some very interesting times in the next few months. What with the Muslim world ready to explode because they themselves dare to accuse themselves of blowing up Hariri, its going to be great to see how Wikileaks plays it out. And really, back to Egypt…isn’t the suspense of ElBaradi, the man who singlehandedly allowed Ahmadinijad to leapfrog over others to be next in line to get the bomb is going to be the President of Egypt….frankly I wouldn’t discount Hosni surving him a “Sadat Special” just to spice up the odds on the Vegas Mortality betting boards.
So as I say, stand by….its going to be a bumpy and interesting ride. If we survive Obama its only going to make us stronger. Lets just hope we individually and collectively survive to see some sort of peace and happiness !!
Remember the famous expression from the 60’s “make love not war”. I’m suggesting we start a new Hasbara program and start puching it to the nascent Arab Democracies. And I have the perfect poster boy, President Katzav are you listening !
Be happy…its Adar !!
This is not true. They believe that democracies don’t go to war against other democracies.
Precisely.
This is nonsense. No one has any idea what is going to happen in Egypt next. There is a chance that the Army will take over and then transition to a secular, multi-party system similar to Turkey. There is no guarantee that the Muslim Brotherhood will prevail in Egypt.
Bill Kristol supports a popular pluralistic democracy in Egypt. There is a good chance that this will evolve with help from the Egyptian Army. By what reasoning does support for a pluralistic democracy in Egypt translate into “NOT supporting Israel”?
I am sick and tired over all the arguments as to which American group is pro Israel or anti Israel and which group is most helpful to Israel. The fact is that Israel has no one other than herself to look to for survival. She has found out that agreements with Arabs are mere scraps of paper which can be torn up at will. This includes that most vaunted Egyptian treaty which the radical Islamists will shred when they take over Egypt. As far as Israel’s agreements with this country they’re as valid as our government’s promise at Jonathan Pollard’s trial to spare him a life sentence. Wake up Israel and take to your own defense. As soon as the new Egyptian government voids its peace agreement Israel should retake the Sinai.
The neoconservatives and secular conservatives are adopting a policy that puts Israel, a true democracy, in danger in order to try to build a democracy on a foundation of quicksand – a society that trusts in the false morality, false laws and false religion of Islam. “It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government.” Democracy means rule by the people. If the people are evil then of what value is democracy? If the people are filled with Islam inspired and encouraged hatred and malice toward Israel what kind of leaders will they choose, peaceful or war-like? It is sometimes said that all men desire liberty. This is likely true but desiring liberty is not sufficient one must accept and obey true moral principles to establish liberty. Also since men tend to wander away from morality (due to a sinful nature or an evil inclination); true religion, fearing, obeying and loving the God of Israel, past from generation to generation is necessary to maintain morality and by extension to maintain societies blessed with: liberty, justice, prosperity, security, peace, and the ability to successfully maintain a government of the people, by the people, for the people. If anyone wishes to see the nations continually blessed with liberty, prosperity, justice, and peace, we must be truthful – these things are ultimately the blessings of obeying the only true God, the God of Israel.
The neocons first and foremost were for a robust foreign policy which included fighting communism and spreading democracy. They defended Israel as the only democracy in the ME. They are not prepared to abandon helping Egypt to become democratic even at the risk to the other democracy.
They believe that democracies don’t go to war. Maybe so in the West. But in the Islamic world there is no such democracy. Islam has a different value system. It requires conquest and submission of the infidel.
If the West perceived an enemy as threatening or odious as Germany was, it went to war. Well Muslims have been brainwashed to believe that Israelis are such an enemy that is not only killing Palestinians with abandonment but a threat to them. Why wouldn’t they go to war to defend themselves and liberate their Palestinian brothers.
What’s this? the great Kristol, when push come to shove, is NOT supporting Israel?
No big surprise. He’s a Jew that meets State Department approval–he puts on a nice theatrical act of supporting Israel without actually doing anything brave or bold in support of Israel. This is why I stated months ago: I have no problem with Jews inciting antisemitism by actually helping Jews. I have a problem with US governmental servants that incite antisemitism by putting on a stage act.
Likewise, where is the even more powerful Wolfie? Supposedly he’s the most powerful, and most pro-Israel person ever. Haven’t heard bupkes from that guy.
The ‘neocons’ are fiction. There’s no evidence of any ‘neocons’ looking out for the Jews. There’s only evidence of the same old same old Arabist bigots running the show.
The error of secular conservatives is that they put their faith in democracy – not understanding that the morality, laws, and religion of the bible is the only stable foundation for just, prosperous, and peaceful society and nation. Egypt and the other Islamic countries have been and will continue to be unsuccessful at establishing just, prosperous, and peaceful societies and nations because they keep trying to apply the false “morality,” laws and religion of the Koran. The West is rapidly declining because we are increasingly rejecting God and his laws, and instead of acknowledging the fact that obedience to God is the source of all national blessings: liberty, justice, prosperity, peace, victory over enemies, just government, etc we tell ourselves that these blessing can be obtained through democracy alone will ignoring or rejecting the necessity to obey God’s commandments.
Righteousness exalts a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people. Pro. 14:34
I think the interview is relevant and informative. It’s worthy of being posted
I don’t understand what you are asking me to do.
I didn’t actually say that but I think this is an accurate description.
Take the chance with the lives of Israelis. This should completely end the notion about neo-cons being Zionist agents. Not that this will change the minds of the rabid anti-Israel crowd and anti-Semites who will still conflate the neo-cons with Israel. In fact the neo-cons have shown themselves to be reckless and callous towards the interests of Israel.
Laura:
Mark Levin Interviews Caroline Glick Of The Jerusalem Post See Here! Laura You should Post this with comments
Say what? He supported Israel? You are not only delusional, you’ve lost it completely.
Yamit,
Bolton and Brzezinski are both CFR members, and therefore in agreement with each other on essential matters. Bolton is more nationalist, Brzezinski more universalist. Both appear to be pragmatists, willing to use religioon as a means to their ends. In the end, the CFR will almost certainly support whatever leader continues to employ its members as leaders, diplomats and consultants.
Ted:
Concerning the “neocons”:
Another definition says neoconservatives favor exporting American liberal values, such as democracy.
I will add that “neocons”, which I take to mean, essentially, conservatives who do not fit the old “Dixiecrat” mold, are idealists; and the IDEA of “Democracy” is a Secular, Philosophical ideal. The best interests of the State of Israel, by contrast, do not lie in ideals; they lie in secure friendships to ward off real enemies. Because Israel is a secular, democratic state, there has generally been a nexus between support for real democracy and support for Israel. Now there is a conflict between true friendship, based on a shared Biblical worldview, and Greek ideals (which the Greeks do not have a good record of ever putting into practice themselves). People have to choose, including the Neocons and including many who consider themselves Bible-believers (but who are really Greeks), both Jews and Christians.
I support Mubarak, because he has supported Israel as a friend in important matters; and I oppose Obama, who has proven himself to be an opportunistic betrayer of friends. That’s because my worldview is Biblical, and the Bible emphasizes faith and faithfulness above all virtues. Most others do not have my faith in the Faithful One; and follow philosophies which they concoct according to their whims. They are, at best, unrealiable.
Could it be that undermining further Israels security explains at least partially Obama behavior?
I attribute this that they are so partisan against Obama that they will take any position in opposition. Comparatively Israel is not even a blip on their radar. This is why I have never placed any trust on conservatives no more and no less than with liberals. Both liberals and conservatives have and will screw Israel.
This shows just how stupid Israels leaders civilian and especially military are. I suggest that they do so now. Faulty conceptions led to the Yom Kippur war debacle.
Not totally accurate many signs showing Mubarak with a Magan David on his forehead and others calling him a Zionist stooge. Mubarak used State TV and radio to call Israel her enemy and much more resembling the days of Nasser.
not surprised by these conservatives, as Laura said they are at core Liberals. Bolton seems to be one of the few who gets it and is not it seems fettered by myopic ideology.