INTO THE FRAY: Martin Sherman vs Caroline Glick – on Sovereignty


Any initiative to apply Jewish sovereignty to Judea-Samaria  without a  clear plan for dramatic reduction of its Arab population will imperil Jewish sovereignty over all  territory west of the Jordan

“One might expect that any support for a single state among Israeli Jews would come from the far Left… Recently, proposals to grant Israeli citizenship to Palestinians in the West Bank, including the right to vote for the Knesset, have emerged from a surprising direction: right-wing stalwarts… We should watch how this debate develop…and encourage it carefully”. – Ali Abunimah, “Israeli Right embracing one-state?” Al Jazeera. 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.– An aphorism of uncertain origins, sometimes attributed to Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

As reluctant recognition of the futility of further pursuit of the “two-states-for-two-people” principle begins to dawn on growing circles of its erstwhile proponents, numerous alternative policy proposals are emerging in the public discourse.

No less perilous or pernicious

Sadly, many of these proffered alternatives are poorly thought through and, in the final analysis, no less perilous or pernicious than the very two-state formula they are intended to replace.

These putative alternatives range from calls to withdraw unilaterally from virtually all territory beyond the current security barrier from the so-called “Left”; to calls for annexing all the territory together with the Arab population from the so-called “Right”.

Clearly, little reflection is required to grasp that unilateral withdrawal will inevitably  transform the “West Bank” into either a mega-South Lebanon (if the IDF remains deployed, as some suggest) or a giant Gaza (if the IDF is removed as others suggest).

Likewise, scant reflection is called for to realize that annexing the territory of Judea-Samaria, together with the bulk of its Arab residents, is an unequivocal recipe for the Lebanonization of Israel (if they are seen as being enfranchised—or potentially enfranchised—citizens in a single societal unit); or for its Balkanization  (if they are seen as being politically affiliated to several disconnected autonomous mini-enclaves  scattered across the territory).

Accordingly, although the disastrous defects of the two-state paradigm should be painfully apparent to anyone with sufficient intellectual integrity to differentiate between the politically correct and the factually correct, it is also true that not everything that is not a “two-state” proposition is necessarily better than that fatally flawed and failed formula.

“Right” regrettably remiss

The impending demise of the “two-state” concept as a viable policy option—together with the recent demise of the pro-“two-state” Obama incumbency—have understandably buoyed the spirits of those who have opposed the establishment of a Palestinian-Arab  state west of the Jordan River.

But any euphoria on this score may well prove premature. For to capitalize on the undeniable opportunity that both Mid-Eastern realities and a potentially  fortuitous  US election outcome have opened up, anti-two-staters must formulate a cogent, coherent and comprehensive alternative that will enhance, not degrade, Israel’s strategic position; that will underpin the Zionist endeavor, not undermine it

Regrettably, the “Right-wing” opponents have been remarkably remiss in this regard.

Indeed, almost four months before the November 2016 US elections, immediately following the removal of any mention of the two-state principle from the Republican Party platform, I called on opponents of that idea to prepare a viable alternative in the event of (what then seemed an improbable) GOP victory see-What if the GOP wins? (July 22, 2016)

In the column, I urged against adopting/propagating seductive conventional wisdom alternatives, such as:

– ‘Managing the conflict’ which is little more than an exercise in futility—and self-delusion—that will only carry the country on a perilous downward spiral, with prevailing problems increasing in both scale and intensity;

– Proposals prescribing inclusion of  the Palestinian-Arabs in the permanent population of a post-two-state Israel, which would almost inevitably turn the country into a Muslim-majority tyranny within a few generations—even if the optimistic demographers are right and, initially, the Muslim population will comprise a 35-40% minority;

– Proposals advocating partial annexation and limited autonomy for the Palestinian Arabs, concentrated in disconnected mini-enclaves which will result in wildly tortuous and contorted borders, virtually impossible to demarcate  and secure, thus emptying  “sovereignty” in the annexed areas of any meaningful content.

What’s wrong with the “Right”

Plainly, none of these proposals offer a sustainable alternative paradigm to the two-state formula that can ensure Israel’s long-term survival as a viable nation-state of the Jewish people.

For almost half-decade, when frustration and exasperation got the better of me, I have written with various degrees of acerbity, even abrasiveness, on the severe shortcoming of the more commonly aired proposals for alternatives for the two-state principle—see  What’s Wrong with The Right : Part 1 (August, 2012) &Part 2 (August, 2012); Annexing Area C: An Open Letter to Naftali Bennett (December, 2012); Brain Dead on The Right? (June, 2013 ); Sovereignty? Yes, But Look Before You Leap (January, 2014); Sovereignty? Yes, But Beware of Annexing Area C: (January, 2014); Islamizing Israel – When The Radical Left and Hard Right Concur (April, 2015). 

However, to avoid false impressions, let me be unequivocally clear.  Ever since the early 1990s, I have been an unswerving advocate for extending Jewish sovereignty over the entire area from the “River to the Sea”, which I believe is indispensable for ensuring Israel’s long-term ability to survive as the Jewish  nation-state.

That said, I am equally convinced that injudicious initiatives to apply Jewish sovereignty to the territories across the pre-1967 lines, without a clear program for dramatically reducing the Arab presence, will not only impair the country’s ability to sustain its sovereignty over these areas, but will imperil Jewish sovereignty over any territory west of the Jordan—including within the pre-1967 lines!!!

Twin Imperatives for Survival 

In the past, I have been at pains to underscore something that should be entirely self-evident: In order to endure as the Jewish nation-state, Israel must effectively address TWO equally important imperatives: The Geographic Imperative and the Demographic Imperative.

The first of these imperatives calls for Israeli control (i.e. sovereignty) over all the territory east of the coastal plain up to the Jordan River—to prevent intolerable risks to its physical survival; the second imperative calls for significant reduction of the Arab presence in the territory under Jewish sovereignty to forestall an intolerable demographic threat to its dominant Jewish character.

Clearly the need to contend with these twin imperatives is virtually axiomatic—for if it fails to do so, Israel will either become untenable as the nation-state of the Jews geographically or demographically—or both.

Accordingly, for a proposed alternative to even begin to address the Demographic Imperative, any demand for Israeli sovereignty over Judea-Samaria must simultaneously provide a blueprint for the future of the Arab population resident there after application of Israeli sovereignty.

It is precisely here that many leading pro-sovereignty proponents, heartened by optimistic demographic estimates, begin to “lose the plot”.

For, even if these estimates are accurate, and in a post-annexation Israel, the Jews will (initially) still retain a 60-65% majority, they are largely beside the point when it comes to the crux of the Demographic Imperative. 

For the crucial issue is not the (initial) electoral arithmetic.  Rather it is  the impact an   enfranchised (or potentially enfranchised ) Muslim minority, comprising 35-40%  of the permanent population within sovereign Israeli territory, would have on the socio-cultural fabric of the country, the subsequent budgetary and demographic dynamics this would set in motion—and the virtually inevitable political outcomes these eventually would precipitate.

Caveat to Caroline

One of the best-known advocates for extending Israeli sovereignty over all the territory and the people of Judea-Samaria is the widely acclaimed columnist, Caroline Glick. To her credit, Glick laid out the specifics of her policy proposal in a book published in 2014, entitled The Israeli Solution: A One- State Plan for Peace in the Middle East”. 

In it she stipulates: “The mechanics of the policy are fairly straightforward. Israel will apply its laws to Judea and Samaria and govern the areas as normal parts of Israel…Contingent on security concerns…Palestinians will have the right to travel and live anywhere they wish within Israeli territory…Palestinians will have the same legal and civil rights as the rest of the residents and citizens of Israel…Those that receive Israeli citizenship in accordance with Israel’s Citizenship Law will also be allowed to vote in national elections for the Knesset.”

This is a perilous proposition which, if adopted, will spell the almost certain demise of the Jewish nation state—no less than the pernicious two-state principle, from which it purports to redeem it. 

I have set out my reservations regarding Glick’s proposal in a column titled  To My Colleague Caroline, A Caveat  (April, 2014). In it I writeI concur with Glick on virtually everything she rejects, but reject much of which she urges us to accept”.

Indeed, this encapsulates much of my subsequent analysis—for while I strongly endorse her incisive diagnosis of the fatal failings of the two-state formula, I disagree, just as strongly, with the prescription she offers to remedy them.

 Unbounded, unfounded optimism

Indeed, one cannot but wonder at Glick’s unbounded—and sadly, unfounded—optimism, reflected in her belief that, somehow, Israel, with a 35-40% Muslim minority could forge a coherent and cohesive society that would preserve its dominant Jewish character.  

This optimism is particularly remarkable given the disruption that far smaller Muslim minorities have wrought in recent years on other non-Muslim societies in the West, where inherent inter-ethnic rivalries  (unencumbered by the 100 year history of war  over the Holy Land), are arguably far less intense than those prevailing  between Jew and Arab. 

For even if the optimistic demographics are correct –and under the far from certain assumption that the radical Left would not side with it—the Muslim minority could command anything up to 40 mandates in any election .  This would be a dramatic political development, drastically enhancing the anti-Zionist representation in the national parliament.

But the socio-economic impact is likely to be even more significant.

Clearly huge budget resources will have to be diverted from the Jewish sector to the Muslim sector in an endeavor to reduce the yawning gaps between the two sectors, siphoning off funds currently utilized for enhancing infrastructure, welfare, education and so on. Indeed, it would hardly be an exaggeration to say that Israel is likely to be catapulted back from being a first-world post-industrial county to a third-world developing one. 

Chilling effect on ‘Aliyah’ 

This is likely to have a chilling effect on Jewish immigration as well. For with a recalcitrant minority of up to 40%,  many of whom have been taught for decades to hate Jews (as Glick herself acknowledges), and who vehemently reject the Jewish character of the state, its symbols, calendar and conduct of public life,  Israel is unlikely to be a more appealing destination for Diaspora Jews. This is especially true if the standard of living is severely downgraded and incipient Lebanon-like inter-ethnic tensions constantly simmer—and occasionally boil over into violent clashes. 

Conversely, these realities are likely to make Israel a less hospitable location for Israeli Jews currently resident in the country, and provide a powerful inducement for them to seek an alternative abode abroad, thus stimulating the motivation for emigration. 

Clearly this will have a corrosive effect on the initial demographic calculations gradually, but inexorably, eroding any Jewish majority which may have initially existed… 

I have barely scratched the surface in elaborating the appalling dangers entailed in Glick’s (and others’) prescription for annexing Judea-Samaria together with the resident Arab population.  I have, however, presented them in greater detail in the hyperlinked columns mentioned above, and I urge readers to familiarize themselves with them. For they broach what is perhaps the most critical issue for Israel and the Zionist enterprise today.

Rift on the “Right”? 

In many ways, Israel is on the cusp of dramatic historical developments. The stakes are high and the cost of error may be irretrievable. Much—arguably, all—depends on how judicious it is in its decision-making.

With the almost inevitable demise of the two-state paradigm, its opponents are divided into two distinct factions. Both advocate applying Israeli sovereignty to Judea-Samaria.   They are, however, divided on one crucial issue – the fate of the Arab population resident in these areas. 

The one faction, represented by Glick, holds that the Arabs should remain under Israeli rule; the other, represented by people like Moshe Feiglin and myself, believe that this would create an untenable situation for Israel as the nation state of the Jews, and the Arab populations must be diminished—preferably by non-coercive means, such as economic inducements. 

This is the vital debate that the “Right” must conduct within itself—and without delay. For it is almost too late!

Martin Sherman ( is the founder and executive director of the Israel Institute for Strategic Studies. (


February 9, 2017 | 36 Comments » | 54 views

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  1. “Transfer is not a dirty word”, Ben Shapiro.I agree. It’s the only thing that cuts Gordian’s Knot. The benefits to all parties–far exceed the cost. In time it will be seen as obvious.

  2. xxx
    I’ve been reading Martin Sherman over the years, and progressively he has become more “wordy”, verbose, ponderous, bloviating, and several other words I can’t think of for the moment to describe his tortuous , repetitive, word contorting/convulsing, descriptions, …well larded by frequent references to his previous articles in past years… (nothing like keeping records, is there…??) and he still hasn’t come up with a satisfactory solution to the situation-like all the literally thousands of “Distinguished”(for what, I wonder) professors and assorted degree’d bean-heads, who, in their turns have made similar “contributions”.

    By now the Israel/”Palestine” -really Jew/Arab- situation has elicited so many volumes that it has surely displaced the Bible as the most written-about book in History.

    Here Dr. Sherman produces another of his 2,300-2,500 word collections of …….words.

    Whereas everything he says has already been said perhaps a couple of thousand times on this site alone over the past few years, by those who seem to me far more brilliant and TO THE POINT. Recently there came to light a plan by a leading Jordanian Opposition politician, (exiled of course) Mudar Zahran. It was originally aired in
    “The Middle East Quarterly of Winter 2012”, and which I have just read,AFTER starting this post. It is masterly in it’s approach. Not a word is WASTED, and the whole problem and solution are each laid out clearly, with LOADS of authentic documentation in the footnotes. I strongly suggest it should be read by those who haven’t already.

    Correct me if I’m wrong…because I can’t lay my hand on the recent publicity.. But it seems to me that he advocated the removal of a corrupt, violently Jew-hating, barely “royal” Jordanian King, who spends most of his time abroad away from his rag-tag, teetering throne, held together basically only by his Bedouin Army, which itself he can barely control…. and MOST OF ALL.. by Israel’s support.

    Mudar suggests that he should stay away, and The people, mostly Palestinian Arab, then should set up a Democratic Republic and repatriate all the Arab “refugees” in Israel and elsewhere, leaving Jordan as is was intended by the 1919 Weitzman-Feisal Agreement to be, the Arab Palestine, and Israel as The Jewish State. And foster very good relations with Israel.

    Moving and settling in expenses would be forthcoming probably from everywhere, and the economy would be structured towards the new reality.

    There are masses of “nuts, bolts, screws, springs, and other components” which make up a working state, but this is not my metier and it would be turning over a filthy, obscene page and revealing a clean sheet….at least to start with… Again, read the Zahran plan.

    This is my hope. and all the other drivel written about the irresistible force meeting the unstoppable object, can be garbaged by history.

    Oh yes, I forgot to add, although I’ve said it many times before,as soon as I ever saw it in print, that Glick is crazy, not like a fox, but the genuine article, at least on THIS matter, ‘though brilliant on others.

  3. @ Edgar G.:
    Mudar’s article in JPost was published in Israpundit three days ago and you commented.

    Mudar, himself has commented on Israpundit, thanking everyone for their comments and commenting further, himself, in the past week. Did you forget?

    I read not only this article (the Sherman article above) but all the ones he had links to in the article that he wrote earlier and this is a response to all of them.

    I agree with all of his criticisms of all the other proposals (including Mudar’s) but his is just as bad. He proposes letting the PA collapse after declaring sovereignty over all of Yesha and aiding individuals Arabs to escape the country.

    That sounds like a mess waiting to happen. You would have a vacuum and chaos which every Jihadist force from Iran to Hamas to Hezbollah to Isis would rush to fill, not to mention the others that make up the PLO, from Fatah — which has murdered more Jews than Hamas — to PFLP, is the DFLP still around?, and the Islamic Jihad, and no doubt others. How long would it take to help individuals go? By what procedures? Without any stability, in the midst of chaos. While people are starving, without electricity or water, in the midst of mass panic? With terrorists, no doubt, embedding themselves among the applicants to leave? Without protecting Arabs who sell land to Jews from their neighbors and from the terrorist gangs who won’t magically vanish with the PA?

    No, I agree with incentivizing them to leave after declaring sovereignty over all of Yesha, but in the short run, the Plaut plan which no one has addressed is the best in my opinion. Ted said he just died. Couldn’t find an obit. Very sorry to see him go. He will be sorely missed. One of the great minds.

    The proper response to the Palestinians’ unending war of annihilation.
    January 16, 2013 Steven Plaut

    I wish somebody would comment on it. It’s a different approach. And all the other plans have serious problems.

  4. @ Sebastien Zorn:

    Yes, what I referred to was that JP article that was reproduced here. But I read at least 14 hours a day so couldn’t pin down exactly when I’d seen it. I thought that I’d made that clear in my comments above. And of course I posted about it immediately I read it, I believe that I was the first one to do, as the advance articles are sent directly to my email address. I mentioned it again a couple of times. So no, I didn’t forget.

    My post above takes into account the possible and certain needs and deeds required of Mudar’s plan, but I glossed over them in a few words; as I am not qualified to construct major political and social structures, and repair international relationships, especially for a detestable people. I SPECIFICALLY pointed out that it was not my “metier”, and there would surely be help coming from around the world.

    I am in favour of ANYTHING which would clear YESHA, and indeed Israel itself of Arabs, they are all interlopers, and have no rights here except that the Israeli Arabs were given citizenship by the struggling, early brand new VERY Socialist and HUGELY irreligious govt.

    I recall Ben Gurion saying that he wanted Israel to be a “normal” country, with thieves and prostitutes etc. I was appalled at that because I always dreamt that Eretz Yisrael would be very special, and drek like that didn’t come into my thoughts. Of course, I was very young and idealistic.

    I saw a few weeks ago a mention that Steven Plaut was dead. I didn’t read much by him. But I remember whatever was printed in the news. Like sending his regrets to Erdogan that the IDF had not killed more terrorists in that Flotilla.. That’s the sort of Chutzpah that I really like. Like being sued for libel about 10-15 years ago and almost getting away with it.

  5. xxx

    Yes Sebastien, that was the article I was referring to above. I read about 14 hours a day, every day and couldn’t exactly pin down when. In fact, I believe that I was the first to comment on it as I get the articles directly to my inbox. And I’ve mentioned it a few times since, in different posts. So no, I didn’t forget.

    As you may see in my post above, I dealt with the problems inherent in Mudar’s plan in a few words. I glossed over them, because as you saw…I said that it was not my “metier”. I’m not qualified to construct solutions to monstrous problems, which need political, military, and social engineering. I’m content to leave them to those who know all about that work, But the problems in Mudar’s plan are very much the same as those of others, except that he openly welcomes friendly relations with the Jewish State, for which he says he has a high present regard, and also wants to gather in all the so-called refugees. If we’re lucky, he’s get some of the Israeli Arabs too…I hope he’d get them all.

    Anything that would get all the interloping Arabs out of YESHA, and indeed present day Israel, appeals to me no end. I’m all for it.

    I saw some days ago that Steven Plaut had died. I don’t specifically recall reading his “Time to Annex Judea and Samaria” although I’ve read many of such, but don’t ask me who they were. I DO know that I admired his chutzpah especially when he sent his regrets to Erdogan about the flotilla…..that the IDF had not killed more of the terrorists. That really appealed to me.

    P.P. I’ve just opened your Plaut link and read the article. I DO recall reading it somewhere but don’t know where. The reference to the American Civil War jogged my memory, as well as the reserves and casinos etc. I recall thinking, or probably writing, that these many dozens of enclosed individual Arab entities would be almost impossible to police and guard, the smaller ones would be forced to move together, and suitability would need to be considered.. We have an example with Gaza……and I LIKE his solution for Gaza….

    Bernard Ross (I think) on this site discussed Hamulas several times, which would, more or less, if large enough, be likened to the enclosed Arab entities suggested by Plaut.

  6. What about the white and black lists with no Israeli citizenship? Isn’t that brilliant? It’s autonomy minus. And in that stable environment they can still be offered incentives to sell and leave, If sovereignty isn’t asserted over all of Yesha, the Left will give away the store. Not necessary to give them citizenship or unconditional free access.This plan solves that problem. Also makes official hasbara countering Arab narrative possible. If that makes Israel Apartheid then it makes Japan and every Muslim country Apartheid. I’m not counting countries with Muslim majorities that are not officially Moslem who are friendly to Israel like some of the the Stans (Khazakhstan, etc.), Albania and Kosovo (maybe that’s it).

  7. If we pay attention to our map makers and advocates of making little Israel even smaller I submit that Israel can be as well located in Uganda. The beaches of Tel Aviv are a part of the Promised Land, but so are Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon. The seashore was settled by Philistines, then heavily gentilized, controlled by the Romans. Jews have very little historical connection with the seashore. On the contrary, the very area Israel abandons to the Palestinian state – Judea and Samaria – is the core Jewish land. Hebron was King David’s seat of power, Schem conquered by Jacob; the ancient Jewish state was located specifically in the area that Jews are giving away now. Ignore the uninhabitable Negev Desert, Galilee and the Little Triangle near Lod settled by Arabs, and Israel is reduced to a tiny beach strip 14 by 80 miles; even there, Arabs constitute 34% among the young. Jewish population shrinks to the Tel Aviv – Netanya strip of the beach and the Haifa enclave.

    I recommend all who make maps and draw lines on paper demarcating our future PEACE border take a tour of Hebron first.

    Listen to the story of Arab animals murdering a Jewish doctor during the 1929 Hebron massacre of the Jews. They couldn’t break into his well-fortified house, but the doctor of pure heart opened the door to a screaming pregnant Arab bitch, at which point the Arab mob stormed his house. See the photo of his surviving daughter, whose brain is leaking from her broken head. There is no photo of the doctor’s wife, whose hands and legs were cut off, or of their daughter who fought Arab rapists until they slit her throat. See the photos of Jews, rabbis and doctors, shining with otherworldly purity – murdered by Arabs. Look at Hadassah hospital, which treated Arabs for free until they raped and massacred the nurses. The Arabs who slaughter each other today in Iraq Syria and other Arab countries, will they hesitate to slaughter Jews again?

    Learn how Moshe Dayan sent Jewish troops to stop fleeing Arabs and asked them to come back to live in Judea and Samaria, how Dayan gave the keys to the Tomb of the Patriarchs to a local imam who couldn’t believe his eyes. The Arabs expected the Jews to avenge the blood of the Hebron victims, and fled. The Jews didn’t care.

    Hear the story of the new Jewish presence in Hebron: how outgoing Defense Minister Moshe Arens gave the Jews 30 hours to build a settlement, and how Rabin, in his first act as Defense Minister, stopped the construction. Listen to the story of the Jewish women who broke the Israeli army’s blockade of Hebron – a blockade against Jews – and held a building for 13 months together with their children, isolated from husbands.

    Meet the true Israel, the people happy to live for decades in caravans at the foot of the preserved stairs by which Abraham entered Hebron. Meet these Jews, who live in extreme poverty, but are the happiest human beings on earth.

    See Jews driving with open windows and Jewish children playing fearlessly in the streets of Hebron – while Arabs close their windows with bars. Understand how 600 Jews stand tall against 120,000 Arabs. It isn’t easy or safe, and you will see AK-74 bullet holes in their houses’ walls and meager furniture.

    If lucky, you will see a demonstration by Peace Now scum demanding that the Jews be evicted from Hebron, King David’s seat of power. You will notice how the peaceniks push the Arabs into the front ranks of demonstrators and incite them to threaten the Jews.

    Visit nearby outposts – Jewish houses on the most ancient Jewish land, which the government proclaimed illegal – and pay attention to the tons of books. Warriors, farmers, scholars.

    It doesn’t matter whether you believe that Adam and Eve are buried in Hebron. This is our land.

  8. The Arabs holding Israeli citizenship and those with Israeli identity cards believe we took their land. No amount of propaganda would change the fact that their dunes have become our gardens. “Their” is more important than “dunes.” On the contrary, Israeli education, available to Arabs, emphasize the nobility of nationalism, perseverance, and national liberation struggle on Jewish example; Arabs readily apply the example to themselves. There is not a single example in history where conquerors (and to Arabs, Jews took over their land) lived peacefully with the conquered. The victims were always eliminated to insignificance. Otherwise, acting in the very human (“inhumane”) manner, the victims revolt. They don’t believe in conqueror’s benevolence but read it as moral or physical weakness, and see it as an opportunity to prevail.

    Peace negotiations lead to peace only when the argument is not essential for the warring parties; both France and Germany would love to annex Alsace-Lorraine, but can also live without it. When the argument is over the essential territory, the soul of the nation, it is not amenable to negotiations. The only way to live in peace is eliminating the threat. This truth is simple, but not nice, and so many imagine that somehow history has stopped in our time, and all which was true before is false now, and wolves lie with lambs, and nations negotiate the core issues. That mindset is apocalyptic; our days are hardly the last days, and the human mentality does not change. If anything, wars are and will become bloodier.

    We cannot come to an agreement with sworn enemies, or live peacefully with those who consider themselves rightful inhabitants (and therefore sovereigns) of the land. There is no peace process, but there is a process that brings peace: namely, cleansing the land of our enemies.

  9. Israeli (Jewish) sovereignty is a fiction. East Jerusalem is to all practical purposes Arab territory now. Israel’s sovereignty only gives Jews the honorary right of subsidizing the Arabs there. Jewish right-wing activists make a great fuss about taking another acre for “illegal outposts,” but their efforts are irrelevant: even if the Israeli government annexes all the Jewish-squatted land, Arabs would still control Judea and Samaria demographically. Arabs fully control East Jerusalem and the Temple Mount, Lod, Akko, most places in Galilee. Jews are increasingly left with the Negev desert (also filling up by squatting Bedouin) and a beach strip. The peace process solves nothing, but only institutionalizes Israeli defeat.

  10. So long as Israel acts strongly and avoids pleading for peace, Arabs would respect her and eventually enter into de facto peace.

    What should be done about peace talks with Arabs is simple: nothing. Israel gains nothing from peace treaties with Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and the like. We will not risk substantially reducing the IDF, and Arabs will not start loving us as cousins. Palestinian peace advances should be ignored: if they want a state, let them proclaim it in whatever areas they actually possess. If they continue fighting us, we will fight back as one fights states. If they carp at Jerusalem or settlement blocs, we will repel that aggressor state. No Palestinian migrant workers in Israel, no trade with Palestine, no services provided to it, just abandon the areas densely settled by Arabs. Many countries have unruly border areas, and Israel can live with unruly West Bank. Don’t object to Palestinian statehood and don’t agree to it, but ignore it. In any negotiations, Israel only gives, but takes nothing. Abandoning all negotiations with Arabs is objectively the most beneficent approach Israel can take.

  11. In my opinion there is no solution to the conflict other than for Israel to win the next war in such a way to completely change the name of the game and impose our own conditions. That is what we should have done in 1948 already and again in 1967. We seem to have missed all the available opportunities to dictate the rules, just as the Vincor’s managed to do in most other major wars in history. One thing we must keep in mind at all times is that our, the Jewish People’s survival has always been in the balance and that for thousands of years already. This will remain like that for eternity! The Arabs, Muslims, Islam and the bloody whole world (besides a few exception) will ever come to terms with our very survival let alone foe us to have a powerful, successful Jewish Homeland.

  12. @ Michael Dar:

    The real choice for Israel is between crushing the opponent’s hopes and abandoning our own.

    Avoiding a confrontation now only exacerbates the problem later.

  13. @ Ted Belman:
    I like him too. I didn’t feel there was anything unnecessary there. He effectively demolishes all of the proposals out there but, as I just commented to Edgar and Bear, I think Plaut’s plan which I would call, “Autonomy Minus” (after BB’s “Statehood Minus”) fixes the problems with the Bennett plan which I believe is also Glick’s.

    I agree with everything Yamit said in principal (he’s a poet, isn’t he — I was moved — as well as Bear’s comment about clearing Yesha of Arabs however it can be done), but it all still has to get past the courts and the Lapids, Begins and Kahlons (interesting how it’s again in three like Peres, Beilin and Rabin with Oslo ) in the Knesset short of a major internal reform first, doesn’t it? Or it’s just spitting in the wind.

    On another note, I really wanted that UNRWA reference. You slammed that author’s reference to its first 650,000 Arabs and said it was 150,000, as though everybody should know that.

    I am familiar with the 750,000 number as opposed to the 850,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries, not even 650, which I have read in a number of places as a rebuttal to the Pals claims of millions. When I said I couldn’t find anything, I meant online, though I did find that one line about 650,000 but nothing about process in a Wikipedia article about UNRWA history.

    Now, when debating Leftists or the undecided, I can’t very well just say, when asked where I get my information, “I have it on a very reliable source.” That’s they way we talked when I was a loonie Leftist. (also before I went back and finished college and learned how to think for myself critically — history rather then music.) If they can’t check it they can dismiss me out of hand. Also, even people I agree with and respect can be wrong. Even I can be wrong. Ha Ha.

    But, seriously, I remember, as an undergraduate, taking a graduate History methodology course in which we had to read books approaching the same topic from different angles and check their sources. You would be surprised how many well-reviewed books had footnotes that didn’t pan out.

    I remember, in fifth grade, I had a music appreciation teacher who insisted that the Hungarian composer Kodaly’s name was pronounced, “Kodayee” (like Pagee for Page or Kim Chee in Korean) but with the emphasis on the middle syllable like most three syllable American English words). When I raised my hand and told her it was pronounced, “Kodeye” with the emphasis on the first syllable (as in all Hungarian words with exception of a handful of words of foreign derivation.) like, “Kodak,” she indignantly told me she met him.

    I’ve often fantasized going back in time (and space) and replying, “Look, lady, I don’t care if you slept with the dude, it’s still pronounced, “Kodeye!”

    There are times when you can’t go by language. The convention is to pronounce the composer’s name the way he pronounced it so whereas it would be incorrect to pronounce the “s” at the end of Camille Saent-Saens name if you go by the French, it is correct, in practice, because that’s how he pronounced it. Not so with Kodaly.

    At the end of the day, it all comes down to scholarship and one must be able to direct the reader to one’s sources for each actual assertion to change anybody’s mind about anything. Open minds that is. or as the Buddha put it, “Those with only a little dust in their eyes.”

  14. @ Michael Dar:

    Israel keeps making blunders. You’re right. The first was 48. The second was 67. The third was Oslo, the forth was Gaza. I fear for the fifth. It would help Israel if every citizen would read “Samson Blinded”, by Obadiah Shoher. Full text available on line. Try Google.

  15. @ Sebastien Zorn:
    Plaut’s plan has a lot of merit. Use of the word “Reservation” is explosive and not helpful at all. There are no perfect plans as a 100 year conflict is not solvable with two winners in this tiny piece of Land. Since it zero sum conflict between Jewish Israelis and Arab – “Palestinians” I choose us the Jews to win.

    That said there are some individual Arabs who would choose co-existence and peace if they had the opportunity. How many I do not know. Giving this opportunity is important so as not to fight every last single Arab and for showing that we are not ethnically cleansing another population. In my imperfect outline for a plan this is offered.
    if they

  16. New Paradigm for long term peace and stability for Israel

    If you want peace it is time to forget being politically correct and proportional in fighting Palestinian terrorism. It is time to be determined to win the conflict and not just say the conflict will continue forever. It is not acceptable that every few months or years that Palestinians shoot rockets at Israelis, blow up bombs, kidnap children or resort to other forms of violence against Jews in Israel.

    Two states in the Land of Israel west of the River Jordan is a formula for war not peace. The Palestinian (Arabs) have for 100 years not accepted the permanent presence of the Jews.

    Israel has a legal, historical and moral right to the land of Israel west of the Jordan River.

    1. However, except for a small amount of people on the right Israelis do not want to incorporate large amounts of Arabs into Israel. The public does not want a bi-national state.

    2. To be able to buy Arabs properties and facilitate their peaceful emigration (buying them out) the terrorists must be jailed, deported or killed otherwise they will exact revenge on the families of those leaving or those leaving before they actually leave. They have a death sentence for selling properties to Jews.

    Once you accomplish number 2 above an NGO working with the government should start enacting an humane assisted program of Arab emigration starting with East Jerusalem and Arab villages in Area C near Jewish Towns. Learn as you go and what problems come up. This will be fraught with problems imagined and not imagined. Just like a franchiser learns by first working on a few locations before expanding widely.
    Annex Area C. Help the Arabs there emigrate.

    Register the people there. Ask do you want to stay and demonstrate loyalty to the Jewish Democratic State of Israel.
    This will require learning Hebrew; your children will be required to provide civil national service at age 18 to 20.
    You will be required to inform on anyone planning terrorist acts including family members. This will be a condition of residency!

    If after 10 years of residency they wish to apply for citizenship they may. There then will be at least a two year period to investigate if they have successfully fulfilled the requirements of residency prior to bestowing citizenship. If they and their immediate family have met the conditions citizenship can be bestowed upon them.

    Once Israel has successfully integrated Area C it can then work on Areas A and B. Unless you can be sure you know how to successfully help Arabs emigrate overseas and integrate others why would anyone in their right mind make the approximately 1,500,000 Arabs (of Area A/B in Judah & Samaria) Israeli residents yet alone citizens. This is a terrorist’s dream, to be able to freely travel all over Israel with an Israeli ID card.

    Walk before you run and go step by step in this super risky proposition of incorporating a massive amount of Arabs into the State of Israel. If you can be highly confident that you can help large amounts of Arabs emigrate then you could start annexing parts of Area A (a City at at a time). Israel should NOT bring an Arab Trojan Horse into Zion. If you can NOT make sure a large amount of Arabs will emigrate, not do annex these areas and make these people residents

  17. Sherman says:

    Rift on the “Right”?

    In many ways, Israel is on the cusp of dramatic historical developments. The stakes are high and the cost of error may be irretrievable. Much—arguably, all—depends on how judicious it is in its decision-making.

    With the almost inevitable demise of the two-state paradigm, its opponents are divided into two distinct factions. Both advocate applying Israeli sovereignty to Judea-Samaria. They are, however, divided on one crucial issue – the fate of the Arab population resident in these areas

    Your problem:

    You ignore the Arabs with citizenship and permanent residency (Jerusalem). Any solution to sovereignty of Y&S with regards to disposition of the Arab population should be combined with Israeli Arabs into a single comprehensive policy of action by the government of Israel.

    Palis cannot survive on sustenance agriculture and are not suited to any kind of modern economic activity. They are sustained primarily by money from these sources: Israel (employment, tax transfers) America and Western Europe, (UN refugee payments and direct assistance to the Palis government). Had it not been for Israel and America, the Palis problem would long have gone, along with the Palestinians. They would die out, breed less, or emigrate. Israel would have to deal with paltry network of Arab villages rather than the bulging state burning with hatred.
    Palis refugee camps are the unique formations. In no other country are the refugees almost forcibly kept for three generations in the camps, unemployed, on the UN welfare, allowed great leisure to develop hatred and tactical capabilities.

    The way to end the conflict with Palis is simple: stop financing it..
    Stop employing Arabs from Territories including Jewish concerns in Y&S. Stop providing Israeli services to Arabs in Y&S. Bar Arabs from Territories from Israel including VIP passes to Palis leaders. All illegal building in Area C should be destroyed just as was done in Amona and other settlements. Cease all imports from Gaza and Y&S.

    Israeli Arabs must all be put on an equal footing with all normative Israelis meaning tax collection building codes and permits and national service either the IDF or national service. They can avoid the consequences of normalization bu renouncing citizenship. I would also rescind NII child payments to all Israelis and have the Jewish agency pay Jewish eligible recipients. Many ways to make life legally uncomfortable for Israeli Arabs. Additional laws can be passed as required.

    The antisemites are refuted. There is no world Jewish conspiracy. Jews are too stupid for that.

  18. @ yamit82:

    Read all your post and agree. The great Jewish illusion, ” If we are good, nice, well manner and dressed, we won’t be slaughtered”. An illusion neither of us share.

  19. @ Sebastien Zorn:
    You said Bennetts plan and Glicks plan are the same. Not close. Bennett annexes Area C only!. He keeps Israeli security in all of Judea/Samaria and calls for the end of the 2 state plan. Area A/B he says is Autonomy on Steroids of the Arabs with roads connecting the Autonomous Areas. He allows only for Arabs in Area C to become residents/ or citizens.

    Glick is annexing for all of Judea/Samaria and allowing Arabs to become residents / Citizens of Israel.

    My plan above is a spinoff of Sherman and Bennetts staged carefully to reduce Arab population before applying sovereignty to an area A/B. While also working on getting the Arab populations of Jerusalem and Area C lower with positive incentives. Equally important is getting rid of terrorists and their supporters.

  20. Israel is under no obligation to grant citizenship to Arabs. Israel is the nation-state of the Jews. It is completely legitimate to grant the Arabs of J&S legal residence without citizenship and voting rights. Why does every one-state solution assume that either the Arabs will be transferred or given full citizenship? There are other options.

    For a fully fleshed-out one-state plan that addresses most of Mr. Sherman’s concerns, please visit the Zehut International web site. While Mr. Sherman and Ms. Glick offer valuable policy prescriptions for Israeli politicians, Zehut’s leader, Moshe Feiglin, creates his own policy prescriptions. They differentiate between human rights, which Israel ought to guaranty to all of its legal, law-abiding residents, and civil rights, which are reserved for citizens. And the state is free to confer citizenship upon those whom it wishes to do so. Zehut’s plan for a one-state solution and annexation of J&S is sound. Perhaps Mr. Sherman could spill a little more ink on that plan instead of the more imperfect ones.

  21. important to remember that declaration of sovereignty at first only replaces military law by civil law. local autonomy and residency standards will evolve over time as the middle east returns to some measure of normality. maybe not in our or our children’s lifetimes.

    The key to Sherman’s concern is demography. and his solution is transfer.

    Our work on west bank arab population is finally acknowledged to be correct. 2:1 Jewish majority is now in place and by all measures it is growing.

    With respect to the demographic fears, as reviewed in

    Israel’s Arab population is now 20%. After Unification it will increase to 33%. There are currently over 6.6 million Jews in Israel, fewer than 1.7 million minorities, and a maximum of 1.6 million Arabs on the West Bank. Future fertility, morbidity, and emigration/immigration factors all point to an increasing Jewish majority. Arab fertility rates have declined over the past 15 years to below Israel Jewish fertility rates of 3.1 children per woman. Increasing aliyah trends including returning Israelis, emigration of Arabs, and a relative aging of the Arab population point to an ever increasing Jewish majority. After Unification, of course, the Knesset and government can decide to adopt agendas and incentives to encourage fertility and migration policies as deemed necessary and appropriate.

    Until recently most of Israel’s demographers and “think” tanks relied on PA census claims[xi] and warned that there was already or in the near future there will be an Arab majority in Israel and the West Bank. Based on these unfounded claims, policy makers and planners, concerned that there was a vanishing Jewish majority, proposed separation and two-state plans. These policy makers, in addition to being wrong in their calculations, also failed to realize that creation of a Palestinian State would encourage massive Arab immigration from surrounding countries and create new incalculable threats to the State of Israel.[xii]

    Today, the leading Israeli demographers admit that they erred by not verifying the fallacious data released by the Palestinian Authority.[xiii] Nonetheless, there are still journalists and commentators, political advisors, the CIA, US State Department (who acknowledge that they only report data from local authorities and do not do any of their own independent census taking) and others who are unaware that any presumed demographic threat to the Jewish State is significantly diminished. Israel must no longer rely on outdated, erroneous population and fertility surveys or upon uninformed population and fertility forecasts to miss the opportunity for Unification.

    In the last 15 years there has been a dramatic collapse in global fertility and local Arab fertility. Government efforts to reverse these declines have met with little or no success. Some of the most startling declines in fertility have occurred in Egypt and other Arab states, Iran and non-Kurdish Turkey. As modernization and westernization is introduced in post Unification Israel, Arab fertility will continue to decline.

    Jews have prospered over the centuries as tiny minorities in hostile environments. Today, Israel will continue to prosper as a Jewish democratic state in which the overwhelming democratically elected majority controls all the levers of power required in a modern 21st century country: security, finance and economy, education, high technology, etc.

  22. mikewise Said:

    Israel’s Arab population is now 20%. After Unification it will increase to 33%. There are currently over 6.6 million Jews in Israel, fewer than 1.7 million minorities, and a maximum of 1.6 million Arabs on the West Bank.

    No country can maintain it cultural cohesian and core identity with more than 10% of a minority among it’s population and that is even more consequential when that 10% is antithetical to the majority population and at best only suffers their hatred for economic benefits. with 20% or more it renders the majority population especially in democratic societies at major risk of internal disintegration and or becoming less identified with traditional and historical identity and culture.

    Look at France and England and Europe with over 50 million Muslims and growing today. The Galilee in majority Arab Little Triangle and Acre Majority Arab and the Negev on the cusp of being overrun with Bedouin.

  23. mikewise Said:

    Jews have prospered over the centuries as tiny minorities in hostile environments. Today, Israel will continue to prosper as a Jewish democratic state in which the overwhelming democratically elected majority controls all the levers of power required in a modern 21st century country: security, finance and economy, education, high technology, etc.

    Patently false historical truth….Majority of Jews worldwide lived in abject poverty for centuries before the mid 20th century especially in the 19th century and hundreds of year before….

  24. @ Ted Belman:

    Ted..I’m not saying that he’s not a smart fella, but “elegant”…He’s vastly over-elegant, saying the same thing in 3 different ways. Tiresome to me anyway. I lived in an era (actually before your’s -if you can believe it) because my country was at least 50 years behind England, maybe 100, in everything including manner of reading and educated speech. I grew up reading Maria Edgeworth, Sterne, Lever, Lover, De Balzac, Thackeray, Dickens, Harrison Ainsworth, Wilkie Collins, Hugo, Crofts, Austin Freeman, Zola, Nat Gould, Conan Doyle, Zangwill, Hornung, Oppenheim,….even Poe and far too many more to even set out a beginning.

    Showing how many different words you know is not “elegant”. And to me anyway, his “solutions” are too ridiculous in this REAL world. Of course, I am open to criticism as is anyone on this site, including ……. and I easily could be wrong…often am..

    I can visualise ………….that there might be broegas……. THAT’S the Jewish way…

    On another point, the post of Yamit2 above, expresses my feelings absolutely and unequivocably. I’ve also read several descriptions of the obscenities perpetrated on harmless, benevolent Jews in Hebron and elsewhere. On this site I’ve spoken a few times about the days of the early chalutzim, working side by side with Arabs, living in each others’ houses, growing up like brothers and sisters, and then…one day there would be found the horribly mutilated body of the Jews-males and females, sexual organs stuffed in mouths, the Arab(s) gone…..

    So for me, as always, NO Arabs at all is the perfect solution.

  25. mikewise Said:

    In the last 15 years there has been a dramatic collapse in global fertility and local Arab fertility. Government efforts to reverse these declines have met with little or no success

    When the Govt. spends 9 months pregnant and 12 hours in labor, then the Govt. can lecture about fertility, until then, shut-up.

  26. xxx

    By the way, since Arab voting rights are constantly cming up, and Jewish “humanitatians” are openly crying about it…(even in the US Senate)… I migt point out that I myself -ME-, have been living in Canada for 60 years as a Landed Immigrant..a legal resident, but NOT ALLOWED to vote in Federal Elections. Personally I don’t care, never have, still have an Irish Passport.

    I might say, that when I’d land and go through Immigration, I’d be dealt harshly sometimes by aggressive power-infused officers who would demand my reason for not applying for Canadian citizenship, often as punishment leaving me to being passed over for hours….. Not often, but often enough to remember it. If I were to be an Islamic lunatic, crying Allah Akbar at the top of my voice it’s not inconceivable in Trudeau’s Canada today, that I would be ushered in with delicacy and demonstrable care, given spending money and even a selection of rapeable women, so as to not make the transition to the West too traumatic…. I’m kidding…….a little.

  27. This all boils down to arguments about how to throw out Moslem Arabs. Well if you are prepared for the political flak it is not so difficult an amoral operation. They claim that 600k have in their time been jailed by Israel so start with deporting at sentence end those in jail and their families/households to the Gaza Strip or wherever they wish to go. The others can be on second offences or those of their hothead teenagers. Strictly that is not deporting because they are still in the same territory of Palestine by their own definition. The alternative is to keep a grip of the Israeli villages and towns East of the Green Line and treat the Arabs there in the same way they treated Israel in 49 – 67: no transit of goods nor persons for any reason. They will then exfiltrate East of the R. Jordan to wherever.

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