Liberalize conversion, for Israel’s sake

The Chief Rabbis complain that this legislation will create second class Jews. So what? I see no problem with that. In the future should a few of such second class Jews have their Judaism questioned, they can always consider conversion at that time. In the meantime, most Jews will accept their status as Jews just as they do in the US. Ted Belman

By Uri Heitner, ISRAEL HAYOM

This past generation has seen no clearer proof of the vitality of the Jewish people than the immigration to Israel of Jews from the former Soviet Union. For 70 years, Soviet Jews lived under a brutal totalitarian regime that ideologically negated Jewish existence and fought it through every possible overt and covert measure. Any demonstration of Jewish identity, of Jewish culture, was illegal, and KGB agents — whose eyes were always peeled and who missed nothing — took aggressive action against any such expression.

In the situation in which Soviet Jews were living, it is natural there were mixed marriages and assimilation. It is therefore also natural that, like in the Exodus from Egypt, many of those who left the former Soviet Union were not born Jewish. If the Jewish people and the State of Israel had any religious leadership worthy of the name, a leadership capable of understanding how important a time this is and making the necessary historic decision, a sweeping decision would be made to welcome all new immigrants from the former Soviet Union under the Law of Return.

Almost all these immigrants, even the ones who aren’t Jewish according to Halachah (Jewish law), see themselves as members of the Jewish people. They moved to the Jewish state, they are good citizens, they are conscripted into full, important service in the Israel Defense Forces. They contribute to society and see themselves as part of the Jewish majority in every sense.

The state grants ultra-Orthodox Judaism a monopoly on the conversion process. Other streams, which comprise most of the Jewish people and are more moderate and welcoming, are discounted by the Jewish people’s own state and not permitted to serve as a gateway to Judaism. An ultra-Orthodox, non-Zionist — sometimes anti-Zionist — extremist and pointlessly severe rabbinical institution creates difficulties for potential converts, slamming the door in their faces. This institution reached the pinnacle of audacity when it (contrary to Jewish law) invalidated conversions performed by Zionist Orthodox Rabbi Haim Meir Druckman, who works to promote conversion under modern Orthodoxy, with good will and love for the converts.

MK Elazar Stern’s conversion bill is not a collective recognition of the Jewishness of the new immigrants or conversions performed by all streams of Judaism, but it does offer a solution. It makes it easier for potential converts by allowing them to approach Zionist Orthodox rabbis who want to allow conversion rather than block it. The bill would open up conversion by establishing another 30 rabbinical panels throughout the country, and every city’s or local authority’s chief rabbi would be able to convene a religious court for conversion affairs.

Every would-be convert will be able to choose where to undergo the process, so if one of the judges in his or her case refuses to grant the conversion, there will be other possibilities. This bill is far from giving a fitting answer to the problem, but it looks like the most we can achieve given Israel’s political structure. It is a foremost matter of national interest to pass the Conversion Bill into law. Coalition or party discipline should be overthrown to do so, since this is about the very soul of Zionism.

October 29, 2014 | 30 Comments »

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30 Comments / 30 Comments

  1. dweller Said:

    What has EITHER question got to do with the post to which your comment was referenced? (or to the post to which THAT one was referenced?) Does thread continuity (staying on point, etc) have any value at all for you?

    Did you just decide to ask the question here for the sheer. . . halibut?

    It’s on point because it relates to A- The point I made to you in rebuttal and B- shows you incapable of understanding and discernment when trying to base your faulty understanding of scripture.

    Your whole theological house of cards is built on fallacy, block on block beginning with this verse.

    Of course you didn’t read it and of course if you did you will probably not understand it, Read the whole article including the links the author supplied and you will enter world of light and discernment never before experienced by brain impaired mutants like you.

    Veritas vos liberabit

  2. @ yamit82:

    “They may be ethnic Jews by birth except those who they converted but they do not practice Judaism, believe in G-d…”

    “Believe in God”? — you make it sound as if it were strictly a binary proposition, that “either you do or you don’t.” But it’s not like that.

    The reality is that regardless of what people say about themselves (and regardless, even, of what they may THINK about themselves), some persons’ trust in God is more (or less) reliant on Him than that of others.

    One could point to plenty of self-styled ‘atheists’ whose outlook & thought processes clearly reflect a higher & more consistent level of faith in an intelligence and power greater than themselves than that of most soi-disant believers

    — a power & intelligence which could easily be identified as God were it not for the history & background of the adherent, which history has led him/her to reject altogether what s/he perceives as the “can of beans” represented by organized religion and pushed by its hypocritical votaries.”

    “The correct term is atheism rendering the rest of your bullshit as just that bullshit.”

    It’s not bullshit, and it’s not so simple.

    A self-styled ‘atheist’ will give you a flat “No” to the question of whether he believes there are such things as ABSOLUTES.

    But if you follow up by asking if he’s “absolutely sure,” it often turns out he’s not so sure. . . . (assuming he’s capable, at that juncture, of answering at all).

    “G-d is how one defines the term if we define the term substantially with difference it means we do not identify with the same. Rendering and understanding and perception of same. Your psychobabble is just that, empty meaningless words lumped together with no meaning or definition and where you do supply them that are intrinsically erroneous, based on the original fallacy in you misreading and consequent lack of understanding……”

    “Psychobabble” — “empty, meaningless words” — Hunh? — who is it that’s babbling here, me or you???

    I haven’t a clue as to what you meant to say — and I’m not at all sure that you do either. You really should do your blogging when you’re sober — because it’s clear that by 4:40 in the morning, you’re thoroughly shicker. (It’s amazing to me that you can even type when you’re tanked up like this!)

    “…does Genesis 1.1 actually say what the translater translated that verse and if not what theological conclusion might be arrived at?”

    What has EITHER question got to do with the post to which your comment was referenced? (or to the post to which THAT one was referenced?) Does thread continuity (staying on point, etc) have any value at all for you?

    Did you just decide to ask the question here for the sheer. . . halibut?

  3. dweller Said:

    “Believe in God”? — you make it sound as if it were strictly a binary proposition, that “either you do or you don’t.” But it’s not like that.

    The correct term is atheism rendering the rest of your bullshit as just that bullshit.

    G-d is how one defines the term if we define the term substantially with difference it means we do not identify with the same. Rendering and understanding and perception of same. Your psychobabble is just that, empty meaningless words lumped together with no meaning or definition and where you do supply them that are intrinsically erroneous, based on the original fallacy in you misreading and consequent lack of understanding……

    You may agree with Jewish scriptural meaning and postulates or not nobody cares and I don’t but then nobody agrees with your crap either not just because it’s incoherent but has no basis in fact or logic than can be derived from your opinions.

    Hypothesis: If you rely on biblical translations of the Hebrew original and much of the Hebrew text is mistranslated into English from the Greek or other translations and you reach conclusions based on mistranslations, what would do you suppose it does to the conclusions and theological presumptions you derived from erroneous scriptural texts?

    Case in point does Genesis 1.1 actually say what the translater translated that verse and if not what theological conclusion might be arrived at?

    https://ancienthebrewgrammar.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/genesis-1-hebrew-grammar-translation/

  4. @ Bear Klein:

    “When so called devoutly religious people start judging it is always been a bit strange, ironic, or hypocritical because it was always taught that G-D is the only one who shall judge us on judgement day.”

    Ah, these pesky minor details, always getting in the way.

  5. @ yamit82:

    “They may be ethnic Jews by birth except those who they converted but they do not practice Judaism, believe in G-d…”

    “Believe in God”? — you make it sound as if it were strictly a binary proposition, that “either you do or you don’t.” But it’s not like that.

    The reality is that regardless of what people say about themselves (and regardless, even, of what they may THINK about themselves), some persons’ trust in God is more (or less) reliant on Him than that of others.

    One could point to plenty of self-styled ‘atheists’ whose outlook & thought processes clearly reflect a higher & more consistent level of faith in an intelligence and power greater than themselves than that of most soi-disant believers — a power & intelligence which could easily be identified as God were it not for the history & background of the adherent, which history has led him/her to reject altogether what s/he perceives as the “can of beans” represented by organized religion and pushed by its hypocritical votaries.

    “Judaism is not and never has been a Chinese menu where you are free to choose from column A and others from say B and C.”

    Quite so. But then, Judaism has never been a ‘menu’ of any kind.

    “Young people especially intelligent young Jews I believe an tell the difference between what is real and authentic and what is false.”

    Right. That’s why Jews voted 78 percent for Obama in 2008, and 69 percent four yrs later. And the kids were leading the pack.

    “Any Jew can believe whatever the choose but they have no right to call themselves Jews or claim authenticity for what is a lie.”

    And whom do we have to identify and define our. . . rights?

    Who will stand as our beacon of authenticity?

    Whom may we call upon, day or night, to be our standard-bearer?

    — why, who else but the Grand Inquisiitor and Defender of the Faith himself— Yamit! If HE stamps your butt cheeks with his imprimatur, then you KNOW you’re Grade A, 100 percent, authentically Jewish. . . .

    “Over a hundred years ago Orthodoxy was more liberal and conversion were an easy and simple matter. That changed with the threat by christians and the attractiveness of western culture and ide[a]s…”

    Not to mention the INTERNAL threat leading to Orthodox’s competition with the then-new & burgeoning Masorti movement [in USA, Conservative Judaism] — which was itself developing as a potent corrective to the assimilationist ethic of Reform Judaism, and presenting, at the time, a rival alternative to orthodoxy’s presumptions of exclusive ‘authenticity.’

  6. In the future should a few of such second class Jews have their Judaism questioned, they can always consider conversion at that time. In the meantime, most Jews will accept their status as Jews just as they do in the US. Ted Belman

    How’s that worked out????

    Pew survey on Jews in America summary 2013

    Fully 93% of Jews in the aging Greatest Generation identify as Jewish on the basis of religion (called “Jews by religion” in this report); just 7% describe themselves as having no religion (“Jews of no religion”). By contrast, among Jews in the youngest generation of U.S. adults – the Millennials – 68% identify as Jews by religion, while 32% describe themselves as having no religion and identify as Jewish on the basis of ancestry, ethnicity or culture.

    Secularism has a long tradition in Jewish life in America, and most U.S. Jews seem to recognize this: 62% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while just 15% say it is mainly a matter of religion. Even among Jews by religion, more than half (55%) say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, and two-thirds say it is not necessary to believe in God to be Jewish.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

  7. yamit82 Said:

    mistook took it personally it wasn’t and I will explain what I really think in private.

    It was a joke!!!!!!!!!!!! >>> I thought you would laugh !!!!!

  8. @ honeybee: How many claimed by themselves to be pious turn out a little bit less than that at best?

    When so called devoutly religious people start judging it is always been a bit strange, ironic, or hypocritical because it was always taught that G-D is the only one who shall judge us on judgement day.

  9. honeybee Said:

    AAAHHHHHH my Baby shot me down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Not at all!!!!! You are as Jewish as any other Jew. I am referring to the religion not ethnic claims of Jews. I didn’t write the book only citing from it….

    I never said I agreed with it which I don’t in many many things…. I was answering klien points from an academic view not personal. Sorry you mistook took it personally it wasn’t and I will explain what I really think in private.

  10. @ yamit82: Conversion to Judaism in my mind is joining the Jewish people including its religion whose practices and traditions are not identically recognized nor practiced by all Jews. So my American friend (born Christain) who married a Jewish Israeli Kibbutznick, studied Judiasm in the USA for over a year and converted in the USA ( I have no idea what demonination nor care), moved back to Israel as an Oleh Chadash, under the law of the return. He served in the IDF and has lived with his fellow Jews for 35 years in my mind is every bit the Jew as a born Jew or someone who converted under the strictest Rabbi in Israel. He is not orthodox in practice but he certainly lives as a Jew. He knows tons about Judaism and celebrates the Jewish holidays just like many other Jews do.

  11. yamit82 Said:

    Any Jew can believe whatever the choose but they have no right to call themselves Jews or claim authenticity for what is a lie.

    AAAHHHHHH my Baby shot me down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  12. @ Bear Klein:

    There is nothing to recognize. They may be ethnic Jews by birth except those who they converted but they do not practice Judaism, believe in G-d, observe the mitzvot of the Torah and have become essentially a form of christian cult worship sans. the deity of christians.

    Judaism is not and never has been a Chinese menu where you are free to choose from column A and others from say B and C.

    You cannot elevate a lie and the artificial and still call it authentic. Reform and conservative movements have been a primary cause of mass assimilation and Jewish definition from Judaism…Young people especially intelligent young Jews I believe an tell the difference between what is real and authentic and what is false.

    Any Jew can believe whatever the choose but they have no right to call themselves Jews or claim authenticity for what is a lie.

    Over a hundred years ago Orthodoxy was more liberal and conversion were an easy and simple matter. That changed with the threat by christians and the attractiveness of western culture and ides forcing the rabbanit to become defensive and creating more and more difficult barriers around the Torah and Torah Judaism and with some good reason.

    I think I have the solution but it will take time to work itself out.

  13. @ yamit82: So you do not recognize Conservative or Reform Jews that is your right but it matters not to me what you think on the subject (sorry if you are offended) because I do not think the Orthodox should be allowed a monopoly on Judaism.

    It is all religious politics and religious business anyway and does not have anything do with Jewish spirituality or actual religion.

    I was raised in an orthdox shul but I do not find the Jews their any better than those that attended a reformed or Conservative temple.

    My viewpoint and certainly some would disagree but if it were not for politics that would be the law in Israel also. Perhaps someday. Things like this evolve over time and do not happen at once. Once this happens Israel will be better off.

  14. @ honeybee:
    Caves are drafty and bat shit is hard to wipe off. Also I hate outhouses. Organized religion however is many times lacking in true spiritual values and more concerned about controlling people. I certainly received that message loud and clear from the Rabbi who married me. I certainly get that message from the discussion of who should be worthy of conversion.

  15. @ honeybee:

    Thankyou querida I will in a little while I have to take Dag out. I waited this eve.longer than usual so I wouldn’t have to take her out tomorrow am.. Usted también debe tomar con calma.
    Buenas noches mi amor mi sudor miel de abeja.

  16. Bear Klein Said:

    So I say open it up to Reform and Conservative rabbis.

    Why not open it up to Paster Jon Hagge he is more Jewish than reform and conservative heretics. what I call JINOS

    What do think the purpose of conversion is in the first instance???

    Gentiles don’t need to become Jews and reform and conservative identifying Jews simply are not by any Jewish standard of definition… Jews are not free to self define themselves as Jews it must be based only on authentic Jewish sources anything else may be called whatever they wish but not Jews nor is it Judaism.

  17. honeybee Said:

    I eat gumbo with bacon. But I can switch to smoked crickets and grasshoppers if needs be.

    I know a rabbi who will make you as Kosher as I am and as far as I am concerned you already are 100% kosher for me. >>>

  18. @ yamit82: I went to the rabbi before consulting with my friends on the kibbutz who would have testified for me. So I had to get a letter from an orthodox rabbi in the states. The letter was after the rabbi received testimony from people saw my parents Jewish wedding in the Caribbean. The process was a pain and humiliating and cost my father money to cover costs. This the short version. Yes the whole thing could get corrupt, I will agree to agree. So I say open it up to Reform and Conservative rabbis.

    The rabbi who married me here still needed persuasion and translation because the US Rabbi sent the letter in English to the chagrin of the Rabbi in Zichron

  19. yamit82 Said:

    The whole system is corrupt and giving it to local rabbis will make the system even more of a mockery

    For me, one would have to give a whole olive grove. >>> I eat gumbo with bacon. But I can switch to smoked crickets and grasshoppers if needs be.

  20. @ Bear Klein:
    Most are unqualified, most don’t have the time and most or many might be open for bribes. A bad precedent.

    I got married to a secular Kibbutznik and was afraid I would problems with the Rabbanit so I get letters attesting to my being Jewish from my rabbi in the States but it was unnecessary as the kibbutz produced two witnesses I had never met in my life attesting to me being Jewish and bribed the rabbi in Afula with several large cans of olives from the Kibbutz olive factory.

    The whole system is corrupt and giving it to local rabbis will make the system even more of a mockery.

  21. Make conversion humane in lieu of up-surd as it can sometimes be now. What is proposed is just orthodox local rabbis doing the conversion, never mind reform or conservative rabbis as permitted in USA and elsewhere and accepted under the law of the return..

    Liberalize conversion, for Israel’s sake

  22. I agree with Uri Heitner’s case for reformed rules for recognition of conversion to Judaism in the State of Israel. I am sure there a many modern orthodox Jewish ravim in all parts of the Jewish state who are sufficiently grounded in authentic Judaism and who can be instrumental of smoothing a pathway of acceptance for the no longer small numbers of people who wish to live Jewish lives in the Jewish state, and to be officially accepted for precisely that social and religious connection. Certainly, anyone or a child of anyone who emigrated to Israel and who has served in Zahal just like any other Jew in Israel, deserves full acceptance among our Jewish nation.

    For that matter, I understand that most of the of the ultra-Orthodox black hat crowd refuse to spend part of their youth in the military service of the State of Israel. Any Jew in Israel who opts out of national military service earns my utter contempt. And by what right do they get to decide who is or is not a Jew?

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI