By Ted Belman Dec 26/14
The Holocaust didn’t occur because of Hitler but because of the Church. Hitler merely built upon the policies of the Church and drove them to their logical conclusion.
Of course I am familiar with the idea that but for Christianity, the Holocaust wouldn’t have happened, but wasn’t fully aware of the debt owed by Hitler to precedents set by the Church for the details of his policies, including the final solution.
R. Hilberg’s classic The Destruction of European Jews provides the link. Hilberg begins his introduction with these words:
The German destruction of the European Jews was a tour de force; the Jewish collapse under the German assault was a manifestation of failure. Both of these phenomena were the final product of an earlier age.
Anti-Jewish policies and anti-Jewish actions did not have their beginning in 1933. For many centuries, and in many countries, the Jews have been victims of destructive action. What was the object of these activities? What were the aims of those who persisted in anti-Jewish deeds? Throughout Western history, three consecutive policies have been applied against Jewry in its dispersion.
The policies referred to included 1) conversion, 2) expulsion and 3) extermination. The first and second were often accompanied by the threat of execution; all of which were sanctioned by the Church.
Hilberg explains:
The first anti-Jewish policy started in the fourth century after Christ in Rome. In the early 300’s, during the reign of Constantine, the Christian Church gained power in Rome, and Christianity became the state religion. From this period, the state carried out Church policy. For the next twelve centuries, the Catholic Church prescribed the measures that were to be taken with respect to the Jews. Unlike the pre-Christian Romans, who claimed no monopoly on religion and faith, the Christian Church insisted upon acceptance of Christian doctrine.
For an understanding of Christian policy toward Jewry, it is essential to realize that the Church pursued conversion not so much for the sake of aggrandizing its power (the Jews have always been few in number), but because of the conviction that it was the duty of true believers to save unbelievers from the doom of eternal hellfire. Zealousness in the pursuit of conversion was an indication of the depth of faith. The Christian religion was not one of many religions, like other religions. It was the true religion, the only religion. Those who were not in its fold were either ignorant or in error.
The Jews could not accept Christianity.
The same might be said of Islam, though it allowed Jews and Christians, “peoples of the book”, to be dhimmis and pay a tax, Jizya”, for the privilege. The Church also imposed a similar tax on Jews.
In the very early stages of the Christian faith, many Jews regarded Christians as members of a Jewish sect. The first Christians, after all, still observed the Jewish law. They had merely added a few non-essential practices, such as baptism, to their religious life. But this view was changed abruptly when Christ was elevated to godhood. The Jews have only one G-d. That G-d is indivisible. He is a jealous G-d and admits of no other G-ds. He is not Christ, and Christ is not He. Christianity and Judaism have since been irreconcilable. An acceptance of Christianity has since signified an abandonment of Judaism.
With patience and persistence, the Church attempted to convert obstinate Jewry, and for twelve hundred years, the theological argument was fought without interruption. The Jews were not convinced. Gradually the Church began to back its words with force. The Papacy did not permit pressure to be put on individual Jews; Rome never permitted forceful conversions.
However, the clergy did use pressure on the whole. Step by step, but with ever widening effect, the Church adopted “defensive” measures against its passive victims. Christians were “protected” from the “harmful” consequences of intercourse with Jews by rigid laws against intermarriage, by prohibitions of discussions about religious issues, by laws against domicile in common abodes. The Church “protected” its Christians from the “harmful” Jewish teachings by burning the Talmud and by barring Jews from public office.
And yet it is the Jews who are always attacked for their separateness.
The clergy was not sure of its success – hence the widespread practice, in the Middle Ages, of identifying proselytes as former Jews, hence the inquisition of new Christians suspected of heresy, hence the issuance in Spain of certificates of “purity” (limpieza) signifying purely Christian ancestry, and the specification of half new Christians, quarter new Christians, one-eighth new Christians, etc.
Hitler’s racial purity laws found their antecedent and precedent in these laws. And so did his order that Jews identify themselves by wearing a yellow Star of David.
Efforts to convert the Jews were spectacularly unsucessful, even aided by all the restrictions placed on the Jews.
Too much had been invested in twelve hundred years of conversion policy. Too little had been gained. From the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries, the Jews of England, France, Germany, Spain, Bohemia and Italy were presented with ultimatums which gave them no choice but one: conversion or expulsion.
In 1542 Martin Luther rejected the authority of Rome and started the Lutheran Church. He, too, hated the Jews. He and others who broke away from Rome became known as Protestants. There followed hundreds of years of war between Catholics and Protestants.
At the end of the Eighteenth Century, the French Revolution took place, a by-product of which was the liberation of the French Jews, who thereafter enjoyed equal rights. The armies of the revolution, headed by Napoleon, spread the values of “liberte, fraternite and egalite” to the east, including in Germany and Italy. With the defeat of Napoleon in 1815, the Bourbons in France kept the liberating legislation, but the monarchs in Germany and Italy cancelled it. Nevertheless, Jews embraced the belief, after a taste of liberation, that full equality was the inevitable corollary of the emerging secular-political order throughout Europe. In Germany, Reform Judaism was founded and in Russia and Poland, Jews flocked to the Communist banner.
But many segments of society remained deeply anti-Semitic, leaving many Jews to conclude that the promise of “liberte, fraternite and egalite” was a pipe dream even though the society was now secular. And so was born the the movement for the Auto-Emancipation of the Jews, which became known as Zionism. Jews had to reconstitute themselves as a nation in their own land.
In Christian Europe, the Jews had only to convert to be accepted. The Christians were against the practise of Judaism. In secular Europe, the Jews themselves were rejected as a race. Thus, conversion was not open to them. But expulsion or emigration was still available. Thus millions of Jews in the Pale of Settlement beginning in 1880 emigrated well into the nineteen thirties. Hitler searched in vain for a country to which to expel Germany’s Jews, but no one wanted them. In 1942 he instituted the final solution, extermination.
R. Hilberg in his masterful study, argues:
if we analyze that singular massive upheaval, we discover that most of what happened in those 12 years, 1933 to 1945, had already happened before. The Nazi destruction process did not come out of a void, it was the culmination of a cyclical trend beginning in the Fourth Century in Rome.
During the conversion era, the Church said, “you have no right to live among us as Jews”. Then in the segregation/expulsion process, “you have no right to live among us” and finally in the extermination process, “you have no right to live”.
These progressively more drastic goals brought in their wake a slow and steady growth of anti Jewish action and anti-Jewish thinking…. The German Nazis then, did not discard the past, they built upon it. They did not begin a development, they completed it. In the deep recesses of anti-Jewish history we shall find many of the administrative and psychological tools with which the Nazis implemented their destruction process. In the hollows of the past we shall also discover the roots of the characteristic Jewish response to an outside attack.
To better understand this statement, Hilberg presents a table of Canonical Law restricting the Jews beginning in the Fourth Century opposite which he places similar Nazi measures.
Then writes:
No summation of Canonical Law can be as revealing as a description of the Rome ghetto, maintained by the Papal State until the occupation of the city by the Royal Italian Army in 1870. A German journalist who visited the city in its closing days, published such an account:
“To rent any house or business establishment outside the ghetto boundaries, the Jews needed the permission of Cardinal Vicar. Acquisition of real estate outside the ghetto was prohibited. Trade or industrial products or goods were prohibited. Higher schooling was prohibited.. The professions of lawyer, druggist, notary, painter and architect were prohibited. A Jew could be a doctor provided he confined his practice to Jewish patients. No Jew could hold office. Jews were required to pay taxes like everyone else and, in addition, the following: 1) A yearly stipend for the upkeep of the Catholic officials who supervised the Ghetto Finance Administration and the Jewish Community Organization, 2) A yearly sum of 5250 lira for Casa Pia for missionary work among Jews, 3) A yearly sum of 5250 lira to the Cloister of the Converted for the same purpose. In return the Papal State expended a yearly sum of 1500 lira for welfare work. But no state money was paid for education or the care of the sick.”
Hiberg also provided a table of Pre-Nazi and Nazi Anti-Jewish Measures. As can be seen, the destructive process was at work in Germany long before the Nazis came to power.
But all this in no way is meant to excuse Hitler.
After the Holocaust, the manifestations of antisemitism became very subdued. It was not “cool” to express such feelings in any way. Unfortunately, the haters began expressing the antisemitism as anti-Zionism. These expression are now commonplace and the hatred of Israel is growing exponentially. As a result, the movement to exterminate Israel has become very strong.
But we Jews will survive that too.
***
ADDENDUM 2022
”Ever since Rome adopted Christianity in informally 325 AD and formerly in 381 AD,” the Church vilified the Jews. Christians, for centuries, hated or feared the Jews culminating in the holocaust. There was a little respite during the Enlightenment.. Hitler came along and stoked the fire of hatred using the big lie as a major tool. It was easy to do because any civility that existed was skin deep only, thanks to the Church.
“Mohammed first tried to win the Jews to his side in the 7th Century and modeled his religion on the Hebrew bible.. When the Jews rejected him, he turned on the Jews and rejected them. Then followed 1500 years of Islamic Dhimmitude for the Jews to the present day…Remember this was a time in which the Muslims conquered and converted a huge part of the East. Even so the Jews were better off living among the Muslims then they were living among the Christians.. Under the Muslims, the Jews were considered people of the book and were relegated to dhimmi status but not killed or forced to convert in the main..
“This changed in the 20th Century after the Balfour Declaration.. The Jews reasserted themselves as Jews and not as Dhimmis and this outraged the Muslims.. They wanted us to remain as Dhimmis.
“In 1919 Britain created the position of The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem as the Sunni Muslim cleric in charge of Jerusalem’s Islamic holy places, including the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
“In 1921, , Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was appointed as the Grand Mufti. Unfortunately, he aligned himself with Hitler, and wanted to be in charge of the final solution in the Arab world. And so began the Arab embrace of Jew hatred.
“The PA stoked the fires of antisemitism with the big lie just as Hitler did.. Thus the PA induced propaganda war against the Jews/Israel has led to an exponential rise in antisemitism and Jew-hatred.
“So the cause of much antisemitism over the millennium was .various actors who fanned the flames in order to achieve victory over the Jews. But it all started with the Jew-Hatred of the Church.
“Under the Muslims, the Jews were considered people of the book and were relegated to dhimmi status but not killed or forced to convert in the main.”
Yeah, tell it to all the Jews who were massacred by Muslims starting with Mohammed, aside from the fact that the Pact of Omar with the dhimmi clause dates from after him and outside of Arabia. Mohammed, himself, ethnically cleansed the Jews of Arabia. He became the Haman/Luther/Chielmieniki/Hadrian/Haman/Antiochus/ take your pick, of his day. Before he came along, Arabia and the Middle East was mostly Christian with some Animist, I don’t know how large, and a large Jewish minority. Medina was built by Jewish tribes who had fled Judea when the Romans ethnically cleansed it of the Jews.
“People also ask
Who built Medina?
Medina, Arabic Al-Mad?nah ancient Yathrib, City (pop., 2004: 918,889), western Saudi Arabia, north of Mecca. It developed from an oasis settled by Jews c. 135 ce. In 622 the Prophet Muhammad fled from Mecca to Medina (see Hijrah).”
They took him in when he was running for his life and he turned on them just like the many West Indian and Southern black migrants to New York in the 20th century who moved to welcoming Jewish neighborhoods and then turned on them and drove them out or worse.
https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
I recall reading somewhere that the myth that Islam was originally tolerant of Jews was invented by Jews in the 19th century as a criticism of the Christian regime under which they lived. Was it Bernard Lewis?
Sure, you can find examples of tolerance. The Ottoman empire actually sent a fleet of ships to rescue and invite Jews fleeing Spain which under Islam had been tolerant for about five minutes before massacring the Jews in Granada in 1066.
The founder of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, wrote a letter inviting German Jews to come and develop his new country and offering them tolerance and autonomy.
So what?
Both Islam and Christendom have alternated between genocide and varying levels of tolerance throughout their bloody histories. It is a distinction without a difference.
But, hey, if promoting this myth will facilitate hudnas like the Abraham Accords, fine. I guess.
Naah.
“In every generation, they rise up to destroy us.”
And it always comes from a different direction. We have to be aware. Sure the Abraham Accords are great. But, don’t go back to these places. And don’t trust them too much. No place stays safe. Time to make Israel safe for the Jews. Safe and independent.
“Under the Muslims, the Jews were considered people of the book and were relegated to dhimmi status but not killed or forced to convert in the main..”
“Under the Muslims, the Jews were considered people of the book and were relegated to dhimmi status but not killed or forced to convert in the main..”
@LINDA
Well Said.
Thank you, Ted. For me, the extraordinary value of your article is its historical perspective and validation that history continues to repeat itself as a variation on the tactical 3-step strategy: Conversion, Expulsion, Extermination. It is the same 3-step attack plan, not always in that order, used by dictators and totalitarian governments everywhere in the world to achieve the same strategic objective: absolute COMPLIANCE from the people it seeks to control. Whether it is religious or secular, its supremacist foundation is the same familiar binary infrastructure of rulers and ruled.The names change, the nations change, the centuries change, but the strategic objective is always the same: Absolute and total control.
What began in the 4th century continues today. But the variation in our time, is that the globalist elite megalomaniacs seeking world domination today are attempting to shatter the entire Judeo-Christian tradition, and are attacking Jews AND Christians. The globalists who fund and foment this destruction maintain temporary alliances of convenience with the communists and the Islamists who also seek the destruction of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Why? Because the Judeo-Christian tradition is the infrastructure of the entire western world, including Israel. The Judeo-Christian tradition is the competing ideology that must be destroyed to achieve world domination. The divide-and-conquer strategy is being deliberately exploited to facilitate the: Conversion, Expulsion, Extermination that precedes imposition of gloablism’s planetary, managerial, Unistate. It is the time for Jews and Christians to stop blaming each other and unite in common cause to protect our Judeo-Christian tradition and preserve the individual and national sovereignty it upholds.
TANNA-
They were not Jews.
They used the Septuagint,
They didn’t know the topography of Palestine.
They didn’t know Hebrew or Aramaic well-if at all. ,
They didn’t know the traditions of the Jews.
They knew nothing about Sanhedrin rules and regular practices.
They contradicted one another,
John .. completely different. later and more Anti-Semitic.
They made Pilate, a low level official, one of the most cruel and vicious of the Romans , into a “saint”.
And much much more, But not by me.
It’s “interesting to see that you regard “Q’ as a hypothesis. Many brilliant EXPERTS say differently.
Both Earl Doherty and Robert Price are far more learned than I will ever be. They are recognised scholars. I like Price and both have a lot of good common-sense to back up their writings.
I’ve also read M.M. Mangasarian \he has a sort of tongue-in-cheek style Very well educated and qualified.
As for our discussions, we’ve reached an impasse.
However I look forward to your thesis, which I hope you’ll display on this site.
Edgar, I read all that about the Mark, Luke, Matthew and Q documentary hypothesis. I’m not inclined to follow that argument. It seems to be a scholarly construct to explain what they can’t understand due to using the wrong Hermeneutic. I do agree, Mat. and Luk seem to draw off mark. Q is a weak argument form silence. If they ever find it, I will consider it. I remember reading somewhere that when they copied scrolls back then, they set with one-on-one knee and one on the other. to make there copies or to copy text from one to the new letter they were writing. When you finish that book your writing, I think I try that. Set your book on my left knee and a book on my right knee and write all the passages I borrow from your book. You know, things I agree with and insights you make that I can use in my thesis. — just messing with you!……
As to the idea of the Gospel not being written by Jews- not likely. Some people believe they all were written in Hebrew or Armaic, Im open to either side. But, if they were to find the original autographs, it would show all the errors and monkeying with the text. I don’t read after the Likes of Earl Doherty and Robert Price. Although, I have a few conversations with price. I was not impressed. IF you want to do some interesting study or reading try Mr. Michael Heiser,( Drmsh.com) He is a quite interesting to follow, reads all the ancient languages. He is Christian but, he pulls very few punches, he seems to be well respected, and he deals mostly with the Hebrew scriptures.
TANNA-
Sorry; my “edit” ran out because I lost my internet connection. Are you aware that not only were the Gospels written outside Palestine, but the writers not known but suggested later.. Someone supposedly found a slip of parchment with the name “Mark” on it.
You surely do know that not “Matthew”, but “Mark” is the earliest, and that “Luke” and “Matthew” followed the Mark story word for word, each with a few additions, causing them to have been laid down, side by side to show the one copying the other, each adding a little extra, often contradictory. In scholarship, there is copious mention of the unknown source “”Q” which links Matthew and Mark.
Many assume the names to be authentic because each begins with “The Gospel according to M,M,L,J.””.
Also that there is a “short” Mark and a “longer” Mark, meaning that the last
part of “Mark” was added later by a different hand. It is suspected that this was done by Justin Martyr. because he was the first to quote it. That was over 100 years after the supposed original date.
THIS you can easily find in Wiki. But I’d read it long before the internet.
TANNA-
I intend to answer you later but just a thing or two. We may be looking at SOME at the same things, but with different eyes.. Also it has been conclusively shown by many biblical and linguistic scholars that NONE of the Gospel writers was a Jew, and that the Gospels were NOT written in Israel. You just make assumptions with no documentary proof.
I don’t mean a Wiki article, but deep scholarship, showing unerring relationships to non Palestine locations, Semitic experts.
Edgar, We have difference of opinion while looking at the same fact. It’s not uncommon. If you wish to understand where I’m coming from, I believe in the Jewish writings, which as you know is more than the 5 books of Moses. hundreds/hundreds of volumes and I included the New Testament, because it was written by Jews. I place authority in those texts. My conclusion, is that God gave us those texts and we are to try to understand them as hard as that might be, not to discount or rationalize them away. This lack of understanding is at the root of Jewish and Christian problems which leads to fighting between these two groups.
My second conclusion is this, IF God did not speak to Abraham and Moses and the Torah is not form God, then there is no God and according to Rabbi Shaul(paul) the Nation of Israel is the only nation that YHVH has ever revealed himself to. If there is no God, then there is no need for me to waste time discussing Israel. Because I’m not an academic out fanning the flames trying to sale my new book. The only reason Israel exist today is because of God. The only reason they will exist in 500 years is because of God.
The word religion does not exist in the Bible. The word Covenant does. It has been suggested based on the history of ‘berit’ and similar words based on iconographic and textual evidence that it means more than “binding or obligation”, which points to the law aspect. While an “alliance” points to something between two parties. If we shift our thinking from the “binding / obligation” aspect(Law) to the “alliance” aspect it shifts our focus to that space between two parties which is then “relationship”. This is where we should all be in and “alliance with our creator” – in “relationship” with our creator.
That relationship is mediated by and through Abraham and his off spring(seed), today we know them as Israel. If the above is not true, then Israel can go the way of all the other nations into the dust ben of history. The reason they do not, is because they, unlike all the other nations are in covenant with YHVH. Christians (gentiles) tap into this Abrahamic covenant through the Jew – Yeshua.
This covenant God refers to as his marriage to Israel. This is why God refers to disobedient / wayward Israel as an Adulteress wife. Repentance, is the process to restore the relationship. Scholars who have no relationship with their creator, in my humble onion do not have a clue. It’s all good brother! Shalom
I may have got the aluf and elef reversed.. Once I knew, nut now not sure.
TANNA-
I despair of ever getting you to understand my comments. You assign meanings that have not been written, and were NEVER intended, and indeed I don’t know how you cam to see something in my words that are NOT, THERE, nor meant.
The Torah, apart from prophetic revelations, and direct instructions from G-D. which are mainly at the beginning with Moses, Is VERY MUCH the History of the Hebrew/Jewish People, and no prevarications about it. Beneficial events, few and far between, are attributed by the pious to
G-D, But the obvious causes are most often the naturally occurring internal problems of the aggressor nation of the time. .
I will respond as well as I can, but when you accuse me of being exactly as you are in your wild assumptions, I must draw the line. Most if not all of my comments, are either factual or deduced by a variety of biblical scholars, of whose works I have read very many. Indeed I possess quite a few, both pro and con..
I had assembled many details, writings and other matter because at one time I intended to write a serious book on the origins of Christianity. Other matters intervened, but I still have the material and have read assiduously since.
And I am not a fool, and can make deductions from the more obvious points.
In a former life, I was a “trouble-shooter” with a “talent” for seeing a problem (or bottleneck) and instantly producing a remedy. How I did it, I don’t know. Now I am old, and perhaps I err more frequently. But…for me, a “fact” is still a “fact”.
I am disappointed at your responses which show a raggedness, not only at the edges, but eating into their very centres.
.
READER-
You make good points here, but I think maybe you overstate it a little. You also make assertions, like, “still cannibalism”, etc but give no details.
Also I don’t think the Pagans would hate us just as much. I don’t know if they hateus now??? 2000 years ago already the synagogues were filled to overflowing , with many standing to listen outside, by pagans, These pagans began to conform to Jewish practices ,they loved to do it. They were Jews in every way but circumcision and knowledge of enough Torah. In that respect, they were very much like the Jewish peasants and farmers, who also had no real learning.
The Sages, and later the Rabbis debated about it very deeply and from their deliberations came the SEVEN Laws of Noach. Just to cater for for those pagans, who were adjudged not to be pagans any more but not quite Jews..,
Egypt , in the context you mean did not hate Jews, xxording to the Torah, the feared that thos epeople to whom they gave shelter had multiplied to the extent that they might eventually overwhelm the Egyptian people. The Egyptians, form what I have read, had low birthrates, but, for some reason, the Hebrews were very fecund and had many.
I actually have strong doubts about this story, because I don’t believe that 600,000 men, besides wives, children and livestock, survived in Sinai for 40 years.
the figure 40, often used , is known by Biblical experts to be a symbolic, religiously used figure. .
I believe that the Sages and Rabbis, to extol the miracles of G-D, discarded the true meaning and “read” ..”elef” meaning thousands,, instead of the TRUE word “aluf”, meaning a head of a family. There is only a difference of an “Ayin” instead of an “Aleph”., both sounding the same in words.
600 families sound much more possible for survival in Sinai, which is not exactly a desert but has several lush oases, and likely fruit bearing palms. or whatever they grew 3300 years ago.
As for preferring the pagans to become Christians, weell….It was Christianity which persecuted and massacred Jews almost since its inception, so I strongly disagree with this. New Christians would be taught the same things.
And you leave out Hinduism, Jainism Buddha, and several other very influential non Jew-Hatingnbeliefs.
About India and human sacrifice, perhaps you are referring to “suttee”. My understanding is that with India becoming Independent and a NEW breeze blowing through that great land. suttee was not only outlawed, but had already declined very speedily.
@Edgar G.
The thing is, if Christianity didn’t exist, the pagans would hate us just as much (remember Egypt?), and who knows what they might have done.
BTW, human sacrifice still exists, in Africa and even in India, and there is such a thing as Neo-Paganism, and I think even cannibalism may still exist somewhere.
Maybe it is better that they convert to Christianity – it is way more advanced, and we’ll just have to deal with it for a thousand more years if life on Earth is not destroyed.
Edgar,
My previous comments are to get you to think. You said that I’ve stated a lot of jumbled up facts. Well, you do the same thing. Discombobulated facts. But when you take it out of context and you don’t look at the bigger picture, then you miss what history teaches us. Christianity is / has been guilty of horrendous crimes against the Jewish people. As I’ve said before, the way they get past that is to repent and not repeat the sins of their fathers. Not all Christians are bad evil people. I do believe they have theological errors they will have to overcome. Many good books have been written showing that in the first to about third / fourth century Christianity was a sect of Jews who believed in the message of Jesus and his followers. Then with the influx of gentiles the Jews parted ways with the church.
I did not say that Abraham’s revelation came from the sun God. You brought up the sun God. I believe just as the early Jewish Christians did that, they saw a connection between Abraham and this man Jesus. These Jews believe it and I am trying to understand what they understood. Don’t let your hatred of Christians color everything you read. If you do, then you’re in the same boat as those Christians who let their hatred of the Jews color everything, they think they know about the Jews. If the two groups would get over themselves, they are closer than they think.
Although, I agree the Torah is Jewish history. I believe it is more than that. It’s God’s message to us and it’s the history of the Jewish people. You talk about Jews not living by the Torah. Why do they not? They could, I know Jews who are observant. Do you really think God would have given them something that was impossible for them to do? You also stated there’s 613 laws and no one can keep them. Well, do you know that no human being has ever. Let’s repeat that so there’s no misunderstanding. No human being has ever kept all 613 commandments. What? Because they all don’t apply to everybody. Some apply to women; some to men; some apply to Levites; some apply to priests. So, it’s not possible. That anybody can keep all 613 and then there’s other commandments that only apply when the temple is in place. And we know it’s not in place and let’s not forget animal sacrifices. We can’t do that anymore.
If you’re interested, Daniel Boyarin has a couple of good ones. Two that come to mind, Border lines and The Jewish Gospels.
Just FY I:
https://www.brighteon.com/d0ed2738-20fb-4b72-a4dd-93e97644ddbf
READER-
Glad you’ve joined in, at least for one comment. I argue,- rather, discuss is a better word, for the same reasons that you do when you disagree with others..
In my case I’m placing facts against myths and deliberate lies, that have almost destroyed the Jewish People time and again.
It began as an intellectual discussion, and seems now, from the last comment (not by me) to have broadened into all sorts of pretty useless detours that to ME, make no sense. Of course maybe to others it might.
.
Rather like a River Delta, say the Nile, with it’s myriad off-streams, some completely dry.
Well, the used to regard trees and crocodiles as gods. See “The Golden Bough”. Kings were for one year and then sacrificed.. . Who’d want to be a hind then???
Poloni, your interruption is always welcome. It gives me a rest from Mr. Edgar, while I catch my breath.
You said: “We have historic rights, rights of heritage, as well as legal rights asserted and accepted by the UN and the League of Nations before it. I would suggest that we should avoid, at all costs, falling into the trap of ignoring the full spectrum of our claim to the land.” I agree, 100%, But I was arguing a different point.
Let’s assume we all believe the Bible(O.T.) is God given. Although, we struggle to understand it and struggle even more to implement its teachings in our life’s. If we Jew’s are thinking that we have a right to the land because of historic right, or the United Nations or league of Nations, Then I suggest we are fooling ourselves, because history is full of People who lost their land, due to those in power ignoring their historical rights, or they changed their minds or whatever. Ukraine is a perfect example. I believe the only reason; Israel has existed since 1948 is because the western powers are still doing atonement for what they did or allowed to happen in WW2. Atonement may not be the correct word; the nations will soon get over their shame. I also believe that their will come a day when the “burdensome stone” will be too heavy for the nations to bear and then Israel will be in real trouble. Will there be divine intervention, probably.
Purim is approaching, Israel must fight on all fronts at the same time. None of us know how the future will play out, but I’m betting that just like our Creator appear to Moses when we were in Egypt, he will appear again at some point in the future. According to the Prophets it’s going to be a very dark , painful time. From a biblical perspective the Jews were given the land, with a caveat, they had to do what God commanded through Moses and Joshua and right on down. The reason Israel, all 12 /13 tribes went into the diaspora was their lack of obeying what their teachers taught them. According to Deuteronomy the only way they will regain and stay in the land is if they return to HaShem.
As the Sun God myths, that is not my position. I believe the Torah is true. The problem is not the Torah, it’s our inability to understand it. If there is a GOD and I believe there is, then he used Abraham, Moses, King David and Yeshua and many others. Imperfect humans to help him accomplish his perfect plan for his creation.
@Edgar G.
What is the point of arguing about it?
2 billion people believe in it, its founding tale is anti-Jewish and there is no way to fix it (maybe it is a positive thing because it keeps Jews away from it).
At least they recognize that there is One (sort of) God which is a lot better than worshiping sacred trees, crocodiles, etc. and offering human sacrifices.
TANNA-
Your response astounds me. There are so many factual and assumed errors that It boggles my mind to know where to begin. What gave you any idea that Abraham’s revelation came from a “Sun god”…? This is as likely as “A message from Mars”.
It’s impossible to take your points one by one and I will not do so. They are,, to me, a confused jumble of facts,, half facts, and incorrect assumptions. How am I “stumbling” over the Virgin Birth?? Is this not a major Pillar of your Church.???? And the Torah, apart from it’s Creation Story, is a History of the Jewish People, written from the point of view of sometimes idealists, other times pragmatists.
I am indeed surprised that it comes from you.
I want to read it properly and will try to pick some salient mis-assumptions, of which your comment is full.
I mentioned anecdotal events which you omitted to credit. I also mentioned simple Torah text, actually history,, which you misunderstood as having a hang-up. I see the words but just can’t make the connection.
No where did I Imply that “I can run but I can’t hide’,…..(Joe Louis) and John’s message, as related by the only meticulous historian of the times, Josephus, made NO mention of John preaching “return to the \Torah”, but merely described that his “baptism” was a cleansing of the body, to match a soul already purified of sin”. .Perhaps that is what you mean by “returning to Torah’.
For your information Jews have NEVER really lived by Torah, it has always been IMPOSSIBLE.
They havepartly by lived by the Oral Torah, the deliberations of the Sages, the Schools of famous Gaonim, their students through long lines of though and discussion , some lasting hundreds of years before being resolved. And there were always dissenters.
There are 613 Laws in the Torah, who ever knew them all, and could live by them.
Instead,, the Rabonim, VERY sensibly ameliorated the stark commands , and devised a way by which Jews could live in an evolving world, but always true to the “principles” of Torah.
Surely you must know this. If you don’t , I sincerely regret it.
P.S. Perhaps I don’t have to delve into your response again, as it is really too disorganised for me to collate an intelligent response. Please accept this post as my reply. And note; it’s MY opinion only…
Also I may know Torah the way you know the NT.
P.S. On a barely related point, Jesus is always sescribed as haviong come from Nazareth, but the Gospels sems to Indicae “Bethlehem; perhaps to try to make an association with David, for “messianic” purposes.???
Today’s Nazareth is 2 miles below where it stood in Bible times.. Just a little tid-it.
PELONI- No interruption, just a timely, well put rejoinder. As -I think it was you-, you know, this is a public forum and you ere not interrupting,, just correcting a “left-field” and incorrect assumption..
@Tanna
Not meaning to interrupt, but even if
it would not follow that
We have historic rights, rights of heritage, as well as legal rights asserted and accepted by the UN and the League of Nations before it. I would suggest that we should avoid, at all costs, falling into the trap of ignoring the full spectrum of our claim to the land, which is why I took the liberty of interrupting your conversation with Edgar.
Whereas our beliefs hold dominion over us, they have far less import to those who oppose both our beliefs and our claim to the land.
So, forgive the interruption, but I believe is an important point to remember.
Edgar, You’ve got me to thinking also. If all that you say is true. then I will have to come to the same conclusion you have reached. There is no God. The bible and all the writings of the Jewish people are myths about some SUN god. If everything the Jews claim is based on the bible and the Bible is myth, then that would mean the Jews are a myth based on false ideas / lies. So, if all you have concluded is true then the Jews have nothing to base their claim on, in relation to the land. Its dog eat dog and the winner takes all. I guess maybe, it would be better if all this myth of religions just faded away. Just think how much peace would be in the world. In case you haven’t noticed what is going on in the world, people are rapidly coming to your same conclusion….. and when they figure out where all the problems come from, they will be coming for the Jews.
With out this people and their GOD, who have created the three(3) major religions in the world…… Edgar, your right. All the problems in the world trace back to these 3 religions……. because of the Jews…. where all religion comes from. How did I miss this…….. All my life I believed in the God of Abraham and now to find out. He and his people have created and are directly responsible for all the problems in the world. You know I don’t think this…, but you think I’m delusional. You people……. that think as you do….. do not see the end result of your sin.
As to your reading of church history. The church has been full of false teachers and Ev Rav just like Israel. Those who work from the inside to muddle up the plan of God for the world. Moses had to contend with them, and they are still around today. You said, “John Chrysostom Simon Stylites, and other certain lunatics, these all being major influences on Christian Jew Hate thinking.” You are correct, these are evil despicable human beings, Christians still suffer from their lies and false teaching.
You seem to be stumbling over the story of the virgin birth. You err not knowing the scripture nor the power of God. They myth of the virgin birth has it’s history and scholars have known it for years. They know it will not work, but it has not come down to the people in the pew, cause Men who make their living out of the offering plate will not speak the truth nor even allow the conversation to happen. the New Testament simply does not teach that a women can get pregnant without having sex with a man. WAIT……. maybe today they can, cause a man can get pregnant now! Can you see how these false pervert ideas that originate in organized religion when the seed that was planted brings forth, brings death, destruction and chaos. If Jesus is not the seed of David, then he is not the Messiah and the Jews are right. None of the disciples of Jesus ever spoke of the virgin birth. It was written in much later and there is a better way to read the text, without forcing a Rosemarys baby onto the story. A whole theology that sits at the foundation of Christianity, is built on just a couple of verse.
Mr. Edgar, you are correct that God knows where you’re at. He will find you; you can run, but you can’t hide. The prophets teach that you will return to the Torah of Moses and to Mt. Zion. You might not like the way you go, but you will go.
As to this John, the forerunner of Jesus. He had a real simple message to all the Jews….. repent- return to the Torah of Moses- the Kingdom of God of at hand.
TANNA-
It has just occurred to me that you “can’t say the same about you”-with validity.. Christianity is the (illegitimate) child of Judaism. Not vice-versa.
It’s true that a lot of nonsense is discussed in Talmud, but there is always very strong opposition to most. It becomes a debate which in some cases, many cases, takes over completely and the enjoyment of splitting hairs by discussing ALL aspects of the point, innumerable byways., A competition of intellects.
One I’ve always thought really crazy is the story of “Honi the Circle Drawer.”. With your erudition you undoubtedly know it. But it typifies a period in which people felt that G-D was personal and a friend with whom they could dispute and disagree with. Awe and abasement seemed absent then.
You may not think so but my attitude towards religion seems to me to be in some ways like yours. For instance, the absurd sanctity given to mezuzas, Sefer Torahs, Tephillin etc. For me the items themselves, being man-made are just items, and the exaggerated sanctity bestowed verges on pseudo-piety..
it is the contents, the words that to me are to be sanctified, and I mean the meanings and from where they reportedly came.
This thought came to me only yesterday, on reading about the fire at a yeshivah which destroyed Torahs, tephillin, and other items regarded as
sacred and holy. The Rebbe declared a half day of fasting and other penance..
It was these which got me thinking. . .
TANNA-
Your response is esoteric and not an answer.. Your attitude shows a “Faith Based” addiction, which means that you don’t really know anything about it.
You are full of common sense yet you cannot see the fraud,, the complete un-naturalness, the fairy tales, the influence of Sun god myths. The birth and death of the sun always revived. Could only happen in a sunny land like Egypt.
For instance, how do you explain the virgin birth rubbish, the deliberate mistranslation of Isaiah’s original Hebrew to squeeze in with Christian theology, already formed. It was was not even a prophesy, but a factual pointing out a particular woman standing there who was VERY pregnant, in the kind’s court. He was the king’s cousin a dn strictly a Court advisor. And the king’s wife gave birth shortly after as any fool could have expected.
What about Eusebius, frauds and many “interpolations” John Chrysostom Simon Stylites, and other certain lunatics, these all being major influences on Christian Jew Hate thinking.
Not to mention the impossible account of the alleged Crucifixion, with dates, and Sanhedrin customs squeezed in together to make an impossible, really impossible event. The mysterious “Barrabas” (meaning “son of the father) The vicious Pilate symbolically washing his hands, and suddenly from being a monster is a simple soul…
All to make up a ritual play scene, which we still see in Oberammergau annually. ..
That the supposed achievements of the “Moshiach” (a late invention) have never occurred,
How do you explain the “John” forerunner tale who appeared 30 years before the alleged crucifixion, with a NON ritual bathing, when he would have been about 70 at the time of the alleged Jesus departure, and who didn’t know him at all. The women who “saw” Jesus after death walking around.”It must have been hin, although it didn’t look like him etc”…
Sane people are supposed to believe this…..????? We don’t know all, just enough to know it could never have happened, certainly like the Gospels account. Hut it is this account which brought unheard of massacres and misery to an innocent People for thousands of years and still going on.
Far too much for me to put down; the whole discussion is really trivial and a never ending circle.
I do not have to seek out my Creator. He knows where to find me.
So I have reason to be sorry for you.
Thanks, Edgar for the complement, while you slap the hell out of me! You know I could say the same. You have a brilliant mind, but you have not sought out your creator. Therefore he will not be found by you!.