Frustration and angst in a roundtable discussion with a lobbying mission of US Jews bent on marriage reform in Israel
The guest experts at a discussion at the American Jewish Committee’s office on November 12, 2015 called ‘Legal Dimensions of Religious Pluralism in Israel.’ From left to right: Rabbi Seth Farber, founder of ITIM; former Israeli ambassador Alan Baker; and Dr. Shuki Friedman, the director of the Center for Religion, Nation & State.
‘Look, we’re paying your bills, I know you hate hearing it, but we’re paying your bills!” said American Dov S. Zakheim, chairman of the Jewish Religious Equality Coalition (JREC), at a particularly fraught point during a discussion about Israeli-Diaspora relations at the Jerusalem offices of the American Jewish Committee Thursday.
Zakheim’s frustrated statement came at the end of almost two hours of sobering presentations by social activist Israelis and roundtable brainstorming in a “discussion” titled “Legal Dimensions of Religious Pluralism in Israel.”
The guest experts at the charged session were Rabbi Seth Farber, founder of ITIM; former Israeli ambassador to Canada Alan Baker, who is currently the director of the Institute for Contemporary Affairs at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs; and Dr. Shuki Friedman, the director of the Center for Religion, Nation & State.
But it was Zakheim’s existential angst at the widening gap between American Jewry and the Israeli religious establishment’s view of their Jewishness that set the tone.
“We understand how the Israeli system works and we don’t like it. We are deeply concerned because we see what’s going on,” said Zakheim.
American Dov S. Zakheim, chairman of the Jewish Religious Equality Coalition (JREC): ‘We understand how the Israeli system works and we don’t like it.’ (YouTube screenshot)
American Dov S. Zakheim, chairman of the Jewish Religious Equality Coalition (JREC): ‘We understand how the Israeli system works and we don’t like it.’ (YouTube screenshot)
Butting heads with the Israelis despite their common goal, the American delegation was attempting to express how dire the situation is for American Jewry’s connection to Israel. And at the same time, the more measured Israelis explained why a grassroots baby-step approach using the Israeli legal system may be their only viable option towards change.
Members of JREC, an inter-denominational group of American Jewish leaders, came to Israel this week in a first lobbying effort to influence Israeli policymakers — MKs, former chief rabbis — toward a reformation of Israeli marriage laws. But at this session exploring the “legal dimensions” in which the inclusion of Reform, Conservative and Modern Orthodox could — or could not — potentially occur, the frustration felt by the Americans was palpable.
“This is a much more urgent issue than people realize. What this does is further stimulate those Jews [who view Israel as the Goliath in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict] and alienate others,” said Zakheim in response to Baker’s hypothesis that eventually, once there are sympathetic members of Knesset, change will occur.
Israeli and American Jewish leaders exchange ideas at a charged session entitled, ‘Legal Dimensions of Religious Pluralism in Israel’ on November 12, 2015 at the American Jewish Committee’s Jerusalem office. From left: Dr. Shuki Friedman, Deena Pulitzer, Steven Bayme and Avital Leibovich. (Amanda Borschel-Dan/The Times of Israel)
Israeli and American Jewish leaders exchange ideas at a charged session entitled ‘Legal Dimensions of Religious Pluralism in Israel’ on November 12, 2015 at the American Jewish Committee’s Jerusalem office. From left: Dr. Shuki Friedman, Deena Pulitzer, Steven Bayme and Avital Leibovich. (Amanda Borschel-Dan/Times of Israel)
Until recently, said Zakheim, a former United States government official, the US has been “the one ally you have in bad days and good.” The divisive discussions surrounding the Iran nuclear deal, he said, however, have shown that this relationship cannot be taken for granted any longer.
Harriet Schleifer, an attorney who serves as the Development Co-Chair of JREC, emphasized that the issue is not only about losing US Jewry’s support today, but also in future generations. She said that 10 or 15 years from now, those US Jews who “don’t have Israel in their kishkes, the way that we had Israel in our kishkes” will not have the same sympathy factor for a country they view as exclusionary.
‘The American Jewish connection to Israel is a religious connection. If you put a disconnect in that religious connection, it’s going to fizzle out’
“Israel has put up a barrier. The American Jewish connection to Israel is a religious connection. If you put a disconnect in that religious connection, it’s going to fizzle out,” said Schleifer.
AJC board member Jerry Ostrov said that even among the children of the most ardent supporters of Israel, the intermarriage rate in non-Orthodox Jews is approaching 85-90%. When these leaders “find their child marrying outside the faith,” they often hope the future daughter or son-in-law will convert.
However, said Ostrov, when these leaders realize that the Israeli religious establishment does not consider these new members of the Jewish People as Jews, their support for Israel dissipates.
Also speaking to interfaith marriage, Zakheim explained its ripple effect.
“When a Jew marries out, it’s not just the Jew marrying out, it’s marrying into a non-Jewish family that usually becomes supporters of Israel.” Today, he said, if the Jew feels animosity toward Israel, the non-Jewish family will too.
‘Is the Chief Rabbinate speaking for the Jews of Israel? Officially yes, practically, no’
In defense, Israeli law professor Friedman, who is also an ordained rabbi, said the line of the official Israeli Chief Rabbinate is not the feeling of the Israeli people.
“Is the Chief Rabbinate speaking for the Jews of Israel? Officially yes, practically, no,” said Friedman. He described how he has been approached to perform wedding ceremonies of young religious couples who won’t go through the Chief Rabbinate. He clarified, they are couples “who can, but don’t want to” be involved with the religious establishment.
“Bring the Americans to Tel Aviv — show them Jewish pluralism today,” he said, explaining that the Israeli religious identity is becoming more moderate. People increasingly define themselves on a spectrum between secularism and Orthodoxy, he said.
For Friedman, change will not come from the establishment — political or religious — but from the bottom up. He pointed to grassroots efforts such as Farber’s ITIM organization and his role in the foundation of the independent conversion courts initiative.
‘Bring the Americans to Tel Aviv — show them Jewish pluralism today’
The recent establishment of the Giyur Kahalacha independent conversion courts is part of what Farber calls “the chip away approach” to change. This is the first grassroots initiative, he said, that “goes head to head with the rabbinate and creates facts on the ground.” There are over 80 converts, mostly from the former Soviet Union, who have undergone a halachic Orthodox conversion in Israel through these courts in the past few months.
On both sides of the ocean, however, the underlying problem is the lack of awareness of the potential fallout to this Jewish identity disconnect, said many delegates.
On the Israeli side, until religious and state issues are on the country’s agenda, the politicians won’t work for change. And they won’t be on the agenda until there is enough of a public outcry.
Hardly optimistic sentiments for this passionate group.
As Farber put it, “People care. People do care. They just don’t care enough.”
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
Precisely! This is just another reason why we need to hold our elected officials accountable.
@ dove:
🙂 I read all of the comments in this thread and understand that the urgency of the topic focus on France.
Remarkably I find Max quite correct regarding the French as a whole. Of course there are exceptions. And also many nationalities got hurt as well.
Basically, the French much as many others in EUrope invited the Muslim murdering hordes of their free will.
If one goes to bed with dogs, he or she must not be surprised if they wake up with flees.
The full extent of the disaster they volunteered for is still in front of France and many others.
We in turn here in Israel must focus on solving our own Islamic vermin infestation. How can one ever thank Rabin-Peres-Beilin-Sarid-Aloni- and the rest of the Arafat importers. The very special Oslo caterva.
@ Max:
Gregory Reibenberg is the major shareholder in La Belle Equipe, which was hit by IS gunmen; his wife Djamila died in his arms.
The dead comprised more than a dozen different nations.
Sorry SHmuel HaLevi 2 – I realize that Paris is not suppose to be the topic of this thread.
This is my conclusion Max. If you want to continue with this discussion we should either take it to chit chat or find a thread that is more appropriate.
@ Max:
ok. I get where your coming from. But would you please consider signing this petition and passing it along? Thanks!
https://youtu.be/JgFctwGTM0g
dove Said:
Yes it is. The entire nation is ONE Brush when the majority decide definite policies and attitudes. The power takes everyone with it and removes all individuality.
The nation of France is at war with Israel , the nation of France is Anti-Semitic, the nation of France is fatally self-infected with Islam.
Only when we consider individuals do we separate the individual brush strands however the nation is acting as a unitary whole – in wartime a nation is always a unitary whole.
This is not at all like the Muslims who cheer the killings, I cheer that the inside conflict – the repression and failed policy of Muslim immigration and Muslim appeasement that awareness that has been denied and censored – has come outside to be recognized.
..
Do you see how many Canadians and leaders now want to reject Trudeau’s’ policies?
What has changed?
NOTHING.
Only the awareness and knowledge of the people has been increased.
…
In conclusion: Ribbit!
@ Max:
You just reiterated what I said .
Not good to paint an entire nation with the same brush. Are we to sound like the Muslims who cheered the killings? I don’t buy that.
dove Said:
Ir’s not hat and it’s not prejudice – it’s war and treating the enemy for what he is.
The French as a nation have made undeclared war on Israel. As a nation they are virulently antisemitic and hypocritical about it.
They have acted like an out of control druuug adudict – their druuug is Muslims and they inject them into their society with dangerous consequences for the entire world.
They are the enemy – just like in WWII the Jaaps were Niips, , the Frenchies are froggies – they earned the animosity of civilized persons.
As far as feeling sorry for any victims – it all depends on a case by case basis If they were not prejudiced , if they were not pro-Pal , if they opposed Muslim Immigration then I feel sorry for them – otherwise they were degenerates who committed suicide and brought it on themselves (children always excepted of course).
..
(Some word is preventing the post from posting – Ted can you not give us a list of prohibited words so I don’t have to go through a post changing the letters of every probable suspect word??!!)
dove Said:
Ir’s not hate and it’s not prejudice – it’s war and treating the enemy for what he is.
The French as a nation have made undeclared war on Israel. As a nation they are virulently antisemitic and hypocritical about it.
They have acted like an out of control drug addict – their drug is Muslims and they inject them into their society with dangerous consequences for the entire world.
They are the enemy – just like in WWII the Japs were Nips, , the Frenchies are froggies – they earned the animosity of civilized persons.
As far as feeling sorry for any victims – it all depends on a case by case basis If they were not prejudiced , if they were not pro-Pal , if they opposed Muslim Immigration then I feel sorry for them – otherwise they were degenerates who committed suicide and brought it on themselves (children always excpted of corse).
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
Which is why most politicians are like fish – they stink after 3 days! Most of the terrorist attacks are against civilians who don’t have the opportunity to hide out in invory towers or who have security up the ying yang. These same politicians cater to bad religion. The people have to take control and bear in mind that in industrialized nations we the people pay them – we are their employer and we have a right and duty to hold them to account!
Still no spellcheck so I hope this post is ‘flaw free’ – just like me! lol 😉
Pardon me….back on topic. It’s a copout! Most American Jews prefer America to Israel. It has nothing to do with religion. A Jew can move to Israel and not be religious. There is a lot of bad religion in America – so why would Jews single out Israel based on religion? They have become ‘gentiled’. Some wake up and come back – on their own accord.
Those Am. Jews who have already abandoned IL are anti-Zionist as a matter of fact.
@ dove:
Moderation is in affect.
woolymammoth Said:
Hope springs eternal. The religious parties are the only thing anchoring BB to the right. they are his fig leaf. BB banished feiglin, he put Benett in a ministry having nothing to do with Benetts platform of YS to make sure he had no influence, he obstructed shakeds bill to reform the court, etc etc. Since he took office he has managed to take even any talk of new settlements in YS out of the Israeli forum of discussion, never mind action. Instead of defending the rights of Jews to live in YS he moves it to Jerusalem ONLY. The same threats exist whether for Jerusalem or YS but he has now ceded YS except for “security reasons” which can disappear at any moment when for the umpteenth failing time the GOI accept foreign guarantees. Rhetoric is irrelevant. At this moment the GOI talks of attacking the red crescent while at the same time they treat every top fatah and hamas terrorist in Israeli hospitals…. and yet fool jews just dont see it… the real picture. the idea is to give words and action of no substance whereas real action of substance is always avoided. It is this consistent avoidance of any real action to advance a right wing agenda that leads me to the conclusion that BB is not right wing when it comes to Jewish rights and YS
@ woolymammoth:
I was referring to the comment which assumes that the orthodox do not vote in obama and the democrats, but I believe that view is incorrect, that many are invested is welfare benefits. I feel the same about the view often expressed here that the orthodox are more supportive of Israel than the secular… this has not been proven to me… especially when I see that the satmar and Nk do not support Israel and are anti zionist and in some cases outright traitors. They read the Torah and likely eat Kosher but their reading makes the Israel supporting jews to be infidels and un jews, including religious zionist Jews. My point is that reading the Torah and wearing black hats. 18th century polish fashions and peyot is not in itself a support of israel, and I wonder if it is Judaism.
So this one American Jew gave his opinion that if Israel continues and does not change its ways American Jews will abandon Israel. I never heard of this guy. Who made him a spokesman for anyone.
I would not overreact to him. There are non-orthodox American Jews who make aliyah (both past and present). They are very welcome in Israel by most. Some Americans non-orthodox support Israel from the USA. Some do not not. Some are liberal first and Jews second.
This over labeling and generalizing only divides Jews and does not help anyone as it builds barriers among a very small people.
@ dove:
It is OK under the circumstances. Terrible times created by a monstrous cult of death, Islam. The adherents and facilitators everywhere must pay for the crimes.
In Israel Peres heads the list of criminals that imported, fomented, supported the islamic beasts.
There are some 400 of those criminals that must be brought in to account before FREELY elected courts.
Not the make believe courts fabricated by insiders.
REAL justice courts.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
The heading of this blog item is “US Jews will abandon Israel…” I was referring to them.
The French situation is on their own dime. They opted for a muslim infested society and the results are of their own choosing.
In a way we in Israel allowed the renegades unJews to do the same since Oslo and we suffer the same consequences as the French do.
Islamic adherents are bestial entities formed to murder and destroy. All of them.
@ SHmuel HaLevi 2:
That is not what I was referring to. We should not be rejoicing and pointing our finger towards the ones who were brutally murdered.
Who are you referring to when you say ‘they’ opted to leave? Who opted to leave? From where?
@ dove:
In other words, we, the Jews in full commitment to our Laws and Heritage, must oblige to the demands from those who deny the basic Jewish Law?
The last time I checked the Torah it does not come with a EDITING option. Take it as is or leave it. They opted to leave… Good riddance.
The unJews can marry anything they wish and eat taref delicacies of their choosing.
@ Bear Klein:
Just wondering if the ‘comment in moderation’ is still functioning. I thought you might be the first to know…lol
@ babushka:
It’s not wise to paint everyone with the same brush. We need to take the high road and base decisions on individual merit – otherwise we are guilty of giving cause to hate us. There is no just cause – why give one?
This is exactly what they want. To turn us into hateful vengeful bitter people. I won’t bite.
What is the difference between someone saying ‘I hate the French’ or ‘I hate the Jews’. It sounds the same. I am not the same as them!
Awesome! Edit is back! 😉
The French feel bad that you’re not dead.
They feel bad that your family is not dead.
But go ahead and sympathize with Jew haters.
C’est très chic.
I feel bad for the French. That said I hear many of the attackers may have been French Muslims. Does France need a Two Solution? One for the Muslims and one for the Christians? This is what they tell Israel will solve the problem. Really?
The reform and conservative movements are garbage. I do not claim I am a good Jew like my baby brother in Israel, but I don’t want Israel corrupted with those neo Commie movements which have the Democratic party as their religion instead of Judaism.
@ bernard ross: Sure, the individuals associated in way way or another in any of these grouping s may not be representative of the organization and it’s political agendas. We are discussing the institutions of reform and Conservative Judaism. In Conservative Judaism, in my experience,there is tremendous variety some openly support the IDF, more so than many orthodox shuls and others may mirror Reform positions which are positions clearly enunciated by past president yoffie, who was anything but, yoffie and now the stuffed shirt grotesque “dancer” Jacups.
And yes we have orthodox who burn the Israeli flag and march with terrorists and make deals with them to allow the other Jews to be murdered so as long as their sect is spared. Then you have as Ben Tekoa describes, “The inside The Beltway Jews”. Whatever form they come in and whichever words you wish to use to categorize them, they victimize Jewish people and all to often in the United States, they discriminate against jews in the workplace, make common cause with the terrorists and take a pro Soros style perverted logic. Israel must find a mechanism for dealing with these people, that is more efficient and cost effective. Replacing Bennet and his colleagues in th ecabinet with Livni, Herzog, the TV newsman numbskull, yesh Atid etc, is just a dumb idea. Hopefully Netanyahu is merely trying to maintain order amongst the ranks with such threats and is only jesting. That is my guess, it is a bluff. Secular Jews can and move into religious practice at different times of their lives and are still part of the religious community even if their practice is dormant. There should only be one denomination, the proof is the USA, all of the different splinter groups sank the entire enterprise, Make shul a welcoming place for ALL Jewish people and forget about Reform and Conservative as their leaders are radicals of one type or another and will undermine Israel and threaten her survival, long term and short term. Accept their money or not, but never do what you do not want to do , for THEM.
Bert Said:
also the ultra orthodox like satmar vote democratic as a lot of them are on welfare, Kiryat Joel is the poorest town in america.
First he insists that Israel must be dependent upon America:
And then he rubs Israel’s nose in that dependency:
I am not among those now grieving for the French. Give them a week to bury their victims and they will resume the French diplomatic initiative to destroy Israel.
It is amusing to watch the BBC report on the terrorism in France while desperately attempting to hide the identity of those who perpetrated this crime. Listening to the British “reportage” one is left to wonder who murdered all these civilians? The Southern Baptists? The Quakers? Must be the Jews!
@ ArnoldHarris:
I like such things as the Friday night Shabbat meal. I fast on Yom Kippur just to reinforce my attitude as a Jew. Sometimes, when my scattered family get together on a Friday night, we do have a Shabbat meal, and this, like fasting, is our “contribution”.
Christian Evangelicals. From what I gather, nice people with an agenda, as you suggest. I have my thoughts on this, but will not disclose them on any type of forum.
@ keelie:
My wife, our oldest son, and I all make a real Shabat every Friday night on which we are home, which is most Fridays. In Ivrit, not English. Which, I think, is far more authentic Judaism than is practiced by most Jews. But I never claimed to be halachic, because my focus is on Jewish nationalism, rather than Jewish religion.
Forget all about those Reform Jews and probably most of the so-called “Conservative” Jews. Israel probably gets more public support from the Christian Evangelicals, even though the interest in us for a lot of those folks is to sell us the Jesus line. Which I think is both weird and laughable.
Arnold Harris, Outspeaker
There are too many people on this thread jumping to too many conclusions about US Jews. It’s possible to be thoroughly Jewish and an ardent supporter of Israel without being seriously halachic.
And its possible that many of these “secular Jews” would be more willing to take up arms against the enemies of the Jews than the ones sitting studying in the Yeshivot pontificating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
As I say, it’s possible. I have no numbers to back it all up, but neither do the people bitching and complaining above.
I would tend to suggest being vey diplomatic and show a willingness to study the overall full ramifications of what these “random folks in some anonymous deli” want, send them some bottles of mediocre kosher wine, stale is ok and do the same next year and the year after that and so on and never, never, never ever give these pieces of dung any purchase on your institutions and lives, they will push for a Palestinian state, they will demand gays on the Supreme Court, they will demand Arabs as ministers they will advocate opening up the borders to a right of return, kook they do it here in the U.S. And they prefer to hire anti Semitic blacks, discriminate against the few true Jews they have to hire, these people are poison, give them nothing.
I am not impressed by leftist U.S. Jews trying to impose their values on Israel using threats and blackmail. Secular U.S. Jews have a lot to account for with their blind support of the Democrats who are mostly selling out Israel.
These Jewish ‘liberals’ need Israel more than Israel needs them.
“US Jews will abandon Israel over religious exclusion, warns delegation” Quite a good joke and an empty threat. The “Us Jews” making the threat (Reform & Conservative) have already “abandoned the Jewish state. But Israel must be on alert because these so-called Jews in the USA are intent on exporting the same religious confusion and tragedy they’ve engineered in America to the Jewish state.
Blackmail won’t work. Most Am. Jews care less about IL.
Around 50% of Israelis are actually in agreement to allow Reform and Conservative movement Rabbis function in the state just like the Orthodox do.
Perhaps this would be a good time to remind the “hard-liners” on this topic, that Moses himself did not marry a woman from the Tribes of Israel.
Whose bills are the renegades paying? I honestly do not have that information. Does anyone know?
I agree on that they have every right to marry anything they want. But they must also keep away from G.ds land.