By Prof Aviad Hacohen, ISRAEL HAYOM
The blatant and ugly accusations leveled at the Shin Bet security agency over its operations — the majority of which, if not all, will surely be refuted soon — undermine first and foremost Israel’s national security.
The Shin Bet is not above the law. Like any other government agency, it is subjected to a series of legal rules and norms, and while protecting national security may allow it some leeway that slightly deviates from the general norms, the red lines are clear.
It is precisely these clear red lines that make the orchestrated onslaught on the Shin Bet by certain elements on the political Right very puzzling. After all, the 1960s and 1970s, when the security agency’s methods existed in a legal vacuum, are long gone. Its unorthodox interrogation tactics, which sometimes included unlawful acts, were significantly toned down following the 1987 recommendations of a government inquiry set up after the deaths in custody of two Palestinian prisoners, and curbed further in 2002, when the Israel Security Agency Law was enacted.
The Shin Bet’s attorneys are on call 24/7 and they have to sign off on any operation and any interrogation method used in any case, especially if these entail skating on thin legal ice. After the fact, the agency’s tactics are subject to legal scrutiny by the High Court of Justice, and while such rulings go unpublished more often than not for reasons of national security, the court keeps a very close eye on the Shin Bet.
Terrorism is terrorism, regardless of whether its targets are Jews or Arabs or the political affiliations of its perpetrators. A wise man once said, “By way of deception thou shalt do war.” The war on terror cannot be waged solely with regular legal instruments. All democracies worldwide have acknowledged that when fighting terrorism, unorthodox measures must often be used.
This is why Israeli law affords the Shin Bet a certain leeway, a licensee to step away from the regular detention laws and to infringe, to an extent, on the right to privacy and property.
It is because of this special license that the security agency’s director must periodically report to the attorney general, prime minister, government, and the Knesset’s Subcommittee for Intelligence and Secret Services, and brief them on the Shin Bet’s operations, the information derived from its interrogations, and how that information is used.
This constant scrutiny seeks to ensure the agency adheres to the proper checks and balances necessary when dealing with an equation juxtaposing human rights and national security.
Naturally, the Shin Bet is not infallible. In many cases, it is hard to perform real-time oversight, and this can only be imposed after the fact. We must remember that a person who never makes a mistake has never ventured anything, but there is a long way between that and the assumption that the Shin Bet can “get away with anything.”
Before resuming the chorus of criticism at individuals who work day and night for Israel’s security, at times placing themselves in mortal danger, their detractors would be wise to stop and consider their words. There is no room to level baseless accusations, which could prove demoralizing to the point of compromising national security.
bernard ross Said:
Try Yule Glog!!!!!!! A Viking drink
We can now see what seven years of Obama’s “closest contact ever” with the so-called security and intelligence communities has wrought. What goodies were these turned agents given in return for their treachery ?
Bear Klein Said:
Be specific. Explain how Rav Kahane was mistaken.
Great… you disapprove of the anti-democratic, actually illegal ban on Kach and Kahane Chai. That and 20 sheqels will get a cup of coffee on Ben Yehudah or in The Old City.
In my younger days, when I thought I was invulnerable and bullet-proof, I was on the staff of an intense fellow who kept a sign on his desk that said: “Do something. Lead, Follow, or Get out of the way”. I learned a lot from him, and from many other men like him. Real-life ‘sheepdogs’ who knew how to identify, pursue, and put an end to the activities of wolves and jackals.
This idea about being a ‘sheepdog’ is a buzz word now, but it’s not new. It’s a concept that was talked about by men who survived Normandy and the European Theater, the Pacific Theater and many intense battles in WWII. It was a concept they went out of their way to teach those whose lives had been entrusted to them.
So decide what side you’re really on… are you an obedient, unquestioning sheep, an opportunistic expedient jackal or wolf, or a sheepdog?
I hope you’re a sheepdog, and not the ‘attack bear’ the ever-willing-to-sting honeybee says.
What’s happening to us here isn’t about us as individuals… it’s about the future of “The Jewish Idea” and Jews who haven’t been conceived yet… and won’t be conceived if we continue following the policies that are treated as though they’re more important than the Luchot M’Sinai.
What we’re watching unfold isn’t anything new.
There’s no equivalent of the Irgun today, except in the ‘virtual reality’ of Internet chat rooms and The Jewish Section’s “Champagne”-like activities driven by an obsessive focus on Torah-observant Yesha Jews (mainly on the “Happy Jews” (“Hilltop Youth”).
Can the system here be changed? Can Israel be returned to normative law, and undo the damage done by Aharon Barak, Shimon Peres, and those who’ve inherited “the iron fist” and “legal” system that’s brought us to the brink of non-existence?
I no longer believe there’s a mechanism by which it can be done. And I”m not willing to engage in the same kind of violence that’s been so very successful with the Jihadis and their Leftist collaborators.
honeybee Said:
I wish…none here
@ bernard ross:
Yankee Boy, go get some egg nog and brandy.
Bear Klein Said:
the arson at Duma took the heat off the criticism of the GOI over its years of allowing muslim abuse of Jews at the MOunt and in Jerusalem. The allegations without evidence that Jews burned the baby followed by the immediate law to incarcerate Jews resulted in the roundup of Jewish dissenters, nationalists and zionists. Instead of presenting evidence to support the allegations the Shin Bet presented the video of dancing Jews. Just like the Duma arson.. the video served to demonize settlers, nationalists and dissenters without any evidence of the alleged crime. the video has served as a red herring to GOI intentional negligence wrt the daily stabbings. Instead of pressuring the GOI to bring in the pal terrorists facilitators in the PA and fatah the jews are arguing about dancing rag tag jews. In my view, anyone buying the argument that those few rag tag Jews are a threat to national security to the Jews of Israel is an idiot.
Bear Klein to WB Said:
WB submits facts, you merely resubmit the declarations of those who declared without evidence that jews burned a baby at duma.
Bear Klein to WB Said:
I have observed that you ALWAYS resort to trying to discredit the person making an argument when you have no actual facts or logical arguments to offer in rebuttal. This is exactly the same MO that the gov uses when they demonize the settler and nationalist dissenters. A baby burns in Duma and BB declares the Jews guilty without trial. Shin bet is accused of torturing suspects and detaining suspects without evidence and instead of presenting evidence against the detained suspects in the crime they point to a video of dancing Jews and pretend it is evidence in the crime.
OOOOh, there are dancing jews who hate arabs and aren’t crying over the dead enemy baby so therefore they burned the baby. Why aren’t the regular arab mobs who hand out sweets at jew baby killing tortured and arrested, why not erekat who lauded the terrorist and visited his family arrested and tortured.
when they cease to teach their children in their mosques and schools to terrorize and kill jewish children I might then cry about dead enemy babies… but until that day I do not. Each day that passes a Jew is murdered by their PA encouraged Jew killers and instead of the GOI and Israel focusing on killing the enemy who kills their children they are focusing on dancing Jews who want to kill the enemy. The daily stabbed Jews are replaced with mea culpa… the enemy laughs at the Jews. for me there is no equality from the first day they intentionally targeted Jewish civilians and Jewish babies for murder. I will never participate in this orgy of self flagellation. I will never seek equal treatment for members of the tribe as for those who slaughter jewish babies for decades.
It is the negligence of the GOI in bringing the muslim abusers and terrorists to Justice which must inevitably result in vigilantism. it is the demonization of settlers and nationalists by the leftist Israeli foreign paid Jewish moles who demonize them on the world stage over decades which has cause the disunity of Jews and a growing hatred which reflects the prior hatred that Israeli leftists express towards Jews.
bernard ross Said:
” Put not your faith in Princes” Psalms
Bear Klein Said:
the whole world stands against Israel… should we take that as evidence of alleged crimes of apartheid and mass baby murder?
rabbis stand for all sorts of things including supporting Iran and pal terror, and telling Jews in the holocaust to stay in europe. Some now stand for perks and support gov positions to retain their perks and privileges including avoiding the army. A weak argument to submit here where people tend to think for themselves but I do realize that when the position is weak such arguments are trotted out by you and the GOI.
bernard ross Said:
Bear Klein Said:
So Bear, in other words you beleive, like Shin Bet and BB, that attendance at the wedding is evidence that Jews burned a baby at Duma and that the dancing Jews at the wedding are an existential threat to the state of Israel?
Are you saying that attendance at the wedding is a justification for torture, a justification for BB, yaalon, rivlin and erdan declaring that jews burned the baby without evidence or even a specific suspect instead of advising all to “follow the law” and the legal process of trial before lynching?
The criticism of the gov and shin bet has nothing to do with the wedding even though the GOI is attempting to paint that picture to distract from their own crimes. Whether Jewish terrorists exist or not is irrelevant to the crime of arson at Duma, the declarations of Jews burning babies by the gov without evidence, the release of a video whose only purpose is to further demonize zionists and Jews… Since you say you are experienced in these areas you should know that there is no relevance in law and that the video is released to manipulate public opinion. Do you beleive that the video is evidence of any committed crime by any specific individuals?
bernard ross Said:
Bear Klein Said:
Really??? Even if Jews commited the arson, are they really like pal terrorists? I do not see dead Jews like we see every day from the pal terrorists and like we see for decades planned and encouraged by all pal institutions, mosques and schools.
Why hasnt erekat and abbas been arrested and brought to detention and given the torture and given the broom up their anus? they pay jew killers, give bonuses to their families, name streets after them, laud them as heroes…. and yet the rag tag jews who have killed no jews are considered by other jews to be as dangerous? Of course that is what those who are purging right wing dissent with Pinochet incarceration laws would like other Jews to beleive.
Bear, do you believe that those ragtag Jews are an existential danger to your children as are erakat, abbas, fatah, etc? You appear to be buying into that red herring distraction from the daily stabbings. You have never answered the question I put to you:
Why did BB, Yaalon, Erdan and Rivlin…. immediately in chorus and unison…. declare that Jews burned the baby at Duma RATHER than advise to calmly await the outcome of due legal process of indictment, trial and legal verdict before jumping to conclusions?????????
You keep avoiding that when you post their distractions, you never answer to that elephant in the room. what kind of leadership would incite a pogrom and lynch of Jews without legal process?
the next question after answering the first is whether it is likely that such people can be trusted when they give their word about those they tried to demonize and lynch.
WB Said:
Yup !!!!!!!!!!!!
Bear Klein Said:
Are you inferring, as does the Shin bet and BB, that the existence of Jewish terrorists is evidence that Jews commited the burning at Duma? Specific Jews are being held and allegedly tortured for a specific crime of arson at Duma and Shi Bet trots out a video of dancing Jews who want dead arab enemies. Why dont they instead arrest the dancing Jews for the arson at Duma if the video evidences a crime? Its pathetic.
Looks like the gov has been successful in once more demonizing a class of Jews with a dishonest video purporting to be evidence in the Duma arson. The gov covers up their first demonization with another… and why not… the fool Jews are eating it up. Just like a pack of dogs who are immediately distracted by throwing some meat in another direction.
No one asks the most important question regarding the most relvant fact:
Why did BB, Yaalon, Erdan and Rivlin immediately and in chorus, declare to Israel and the world that Jewish settlers burned the baby at Duma RATHER than advise Israelis NOT to jump to conclusions and to wait for the legal process to take its course?
The logical answer is that they did it intentionally…. but why… what did they want to achieve…. were they naive(LOL)
So, why did they intentionally declare the guilt of unknown Jews in a baby burning of goyim…. similar to a medieval blood libel ……. INSTEAD of advising to wait for the legal process like any normal leader would do. They must have known that their declarations would result in revenge murders of Jews, immediate condemnation and demonization of settlers, nationalists and Zionists. Who can give a reason as to why they would do that….. perhaps Bear can give us a reason?
instead bear keeps posting about the big threats against the state, repeating the rubbish of those who already invested in the demonization process with their initial declarations of guilt.
Bear Klein Said:
no one seems to notice how the brouhaha over dancing jews who hate arabs has replaced the actual crimes as the focus of attention. the crimes being: the actual arson perps, the declarations without trial, of BB, Yaalon, Erdan and Rivlin, that Jews committed the murder, the attempt to distract from allegations of torture by presenting a ludicrous video dancing Jews as evidence Jews committing the arson at duma.
Unless Israeli Jews are idiots they should be wondering why Rivlin,Yaalon, Erdan and BB immediately declared to the world that Jews burned the baby at Duma rather than following the global standard of national leadership and instead advise Israel to remain calm and follow the law and wait for a legal determination of guilt by verdict in a court of Law. Ask why did they declare to the world without a trial that jewish settlers burned babies? Was the declaration intentional or were they incompetent errors of naive foolishness where they forgot that such declarations will result in revenge burnings and daily stabbings of Jews? Is it likely that the 4 who declared the guilt of unindicted, untried Jews were naive? They are all longtime politicians and soldiers, very experience and knowledgeable in predicting that their declarations would cause the revenge stabbings and murders. Bear, what is your reason for the 4 intentionally creating a lynch mob against settlers before even enough evidence for an indictment never mind a proper legal trial. What motivated them to such an unusual behavior?
In the same way the Duma arson resulted in distracting from the gov inaction over muslim abuses of Jews at the Mount the latest video, which has all the Jews babbling over some dancing Jews who hate arabs,distracts from the insane premature declarations of the 4, the criticisms of incompetence and negligence of the compromised Duma investigation, the allegations of torture AND the daily arab terror stabbings and slaughters of Jews. The GOI wants the Jews to focus on the dancing jews who committed no crime in the video rather than on the daily slaughter of Jews.
watsa46 Said:
My sympathies, it must be difficult for you, so well informed, yet so out shown by those dreadful Americans
Dandaman Said:
Simple statement of fact.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/96875-151226-the-leader-of-the-right-versus-the-wrong
It is still better than the Americans who know NOTHING about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING about NOTHING. They live at the speed of the light and have no time to learn what is not being taught anymore.
Happy 2016.
I went to my dentist recently and I must still be under the influence of the NO. It is great. U should all try. Covered by health insurance!!!
WB Said:
Yes please Woefully Befuddled and Dandaman continue, with all that is accusing in Israel , a good laugh is need by all.
And that’s not hysteria?
O
@ Bear Klein:
Now you know why I refer to this as hysteria. The wedding proves nothing, the guests broke no laws. You need to call Miss Manners not the Jewish section.
Hysteria that is an interesting word for the situation. I think it may fit both sides of the debate to some degree.
Hopefully there will be public proof soon. Also an independent inquiry of the system of Administrative Detention for Israeli Citizens
@ Bear Klein:
Jewish hysteria is more dangerous to the state than alleged Jewish terrorists. All this wild condemnation and still not a drop of proof.
Was a crime committed at that “terrorists'” wedding? I don’t think so. As far as the “evidence” Shabak’s Jewish Section leaked to the media before they sat down to write their stories, pray that it’s real and not the product of torture or other illegal methods. Because in that case it would not be admissible, that is if Israel is still the demokracy you claim you are trying to save.
The Rabbi at the wedding says:
Now the Shin Bet is killing Arabs and framing Jews for it. I am sure some will buy this?
So the lawyer who has been slamming or perhaps slandering the Shin Bet was at this wedding.
@ WB: First today I am a businessman mostly and not a big shot of any sort. In my youth in the USA I had both experience and formal education in the criminal justice system. When later still in my youth I moved to Israel I had exposure to both law enforcement and various Israeli security organizations.
I am glad you stopped any pretense of being objective and have clarified you have a narrative and an agenda of discrediting the government.
By the way I disapprove of the ban on Meir Kahane’s party. I read his books and he influenced my Zionism. I do not agree with all things he said but much of it makes sense.
I also know all things are not black and white in the security world. I have tried to play devil’s advocate with postings of others articles. I realize now this was threatening to you as you appear paranoid. For example when you went into moderation. This is a machine moderation for which I believe even Ted Belman can not control (he can correct me if I am wrong).
Israel by the way has no death penalty in practice.
Bear Klein Said:
Yes
Bear Klein Said:
What do you think, Herr Bear? That I’m sitting in Long Island just imagining what really goes on when Torah-observant Yesha Jews get even a little bit involved in trying to change the policies of the Mad Hatter’s Tea Party klatch that’s been misdirecting us from before the official 1948 Declaration? Remember the Altalena, The Season. The inheritors of those responsible for these atrocities are still running the show.
I must clarify something. My critical comments are exclusively directed at “The Jewish Section”… not the entire Shabak… although I’m disappointed that the genuinely decent men and women in the larger organization are allowing the Jewish Section to continue its obsession with Torah-observant Yesha Jews.
As I said elsewhere… let there be an indictment, a trial, and a public display of ALL the evidence. If guilty, the perpetrators should face the death penalty, no matter who they are.
@ WB:
Do you live in Israel?
You have been a Shin Bet suspect arrested?
@ Bear Klein:
I agree it’s possible I’ve misread some of your statements. But it does seem clear you’re coming out on the side of those who want to silence those of us who, for reasons based on our own training and experience, are aware of how often governments and police bureaucracies flat-out lie.
If you’ve not been the object of “The Jewish Section’s” attention, you may well believe they’re pure as the driven snow. Perhaps your dataset is too small to grasp why some of us are very concerned about what we’re watching unfold.
I see my comments are now being moderated. How interesting. How disappointing.
Bear Klein Said:
This, of course, is the basis for filing charges in a normative legal system. But if you know this, you also know how often a person with no connection to the crime was manipulated into providing “details only the actual perpetrator could have known”.
While still accepting that you’re even more of a macher than you claim to be, one must wonder exactly what kind of training and experience you’ve had. Still, you perfectly represent the mindset of those who tend to make it to the very top of police and judicial bureaucracies everywhere.
Henry Lee Lucas, for example, confessed to dozens of murders he never committed. He was carefully fed details on these crimes by the same kind of expedient “exigent circumstances” tactics we’re seeing in the Duma case.
The method for eliciting exactly such false confessions is based in creating false memories. In the Duma case, there are problems with your hypothetical and what you’re hoping it proves. At this stage, it’s all a media event targeted at reinforcing a misperception about Jews who live in Yesha. There’s no legal process going on… just a witch hunt.
Many details about the arson/murder were spread by the Security Service itself… in their first wave of demonizing observant Jews simply because of the odd Hebrew graffiti.
Others on this thread have pointed out an important fact: the missing Duma security videos, and what appears to have been to obscure the actual facts of the case.
Free people who know that governments and police are prone to covering up the deeds of their comrades would wonder how this glaring error could have happened. It’s reasonable to suspect that the perpetrators were among the unknown number of individuals who work in the clandestine services, living as a Muslim, in an Arab village.
I’ve been in the region where Duma is located. Many times. It’s just not realistic to believe that “hilltop youths” (who the SS now sneeringly call “happy Jews”… it’s just beyond belief that they could’ve penetrated that village, done the deed, and gotten out.
The most likely culprits are Arabs of a rival clan. Why has this “reasonable suspicion” not been actively pursued in the same way as the macabre media incitement, trial, and conviction?
So, Herr Bear, the fact that an individual can provide details of a crime isn’t sufficient to convict that individual. Except, of course, in a KGB-Stasi type operation, as I am certain ‘The Jewish Section’ became long, long ago.
Given a little time, the right environment, and some simple devices (nothing out of the ordinary), it would be easy to get you to confess to being part of the conspiracy to assassinate Rabin. That act of murder was a truly despicable act; but it showed all of us how far this SS you defend is willing to go to demonize “Settlers”.
Without ‘Champagne’, the hapless law student would never have murdered Rabin. Yet, the instigator of the crime is hanging out somewhere, possibly helping train others how to go about infiltrating and inciting gullible Torah-observant Jews.
Let charges be filed against the suspects. Let there be an open trial so that all of us can see the evidence. Whoever did it, or cooperated in it should be given a fair trial.
And whoever has been helping cover up, misdirect, and obfuscate the entire sad affair should be tried for obstruction of justice.
But this is Israel, where normative law disappeared with Aharon Barak’s infamous dictum “Everything is justicable”. This Humpty Dumptyism is what we’re watching the SS (Security Services) and their defenders do. That’s not law, it’s Democracy (a lynch mob).
@ WB:You claim interest in the facts but have an explanation for everything even when you do not know the facts.
At best you are interested in facts that fit your narrative. You assign the source of the wedding video as leftist media even though you do not know the source of the video. You do this because the video damages your narrative and so you must have it marginalized. Actually it most likely one of the participants at the wedding took the video.
I actually believe administrative detention is dangerous for the society. I have always been leery of it crossing over from the enemy alien Arabs to our sector. I am leery of government power and appreciate the USA’s checks and balances. However, if Israel used such a system exactly given the terror threat it could disappear because we could not fight the Arab terrorists.
The Israeli system like the US system is based on English Common Law. Israel has taken a more pragmatic approach. I do not have the time to contrast both in detail.
If someone reenacts a crime with details only the actual perpetrator could have known are they guilty of the crime?
@ JoeBillScott:
You’re correct. This has happened at least a dozen times to people I personally know… who never did anything other than make a loud public noise in what’s supposed to be the “open and free democratic state”. That freedom is exactly like “Animal Farm” and “Nineteen-Eighty-Four”… reserved only for the power elite. Orwell saw what was coming from the insider’s perspective. C. Wright Mills, too, was very accurate in his analysis. There are many others who could be named. In the Jewish National group, Shmuel Katz still stands out as a guiding star, a reliable witness and objective chronicler of events in books that ought to be widely distributed.
@ bernard ross:
Rivlin won’t bring the same “militant enthusiasm” to bear on the Jihadis. Instead, he visits them, makes condolence calls, and joins in their campaign against Jewish sovereignty… under the pretense of “an open, democratic society”.
Don’t preach to us, Ruby Rivlin. The wrath you warn about won’t come from observant Jews and their children. You’re not acting in a vacuum… you know exactly what you’re doing and what outcome you hope to accomplish. PERFIDY!
honeybee Said:
Ha! What a clever little killer bee you are! Your logo of the killer bee with a hockey stick is great. Hockey sticks are just as good as axe handles for engaging in the kind of behavior that made the young Ariel Sharon an important player in the political-military organization that kept Israel Socialist (the “Oligarchical Collective” a.k.a. “Animal Farm”).
Of course your ‘kneecapping’ is rhetorical. Or do you have another profession or hobby requiring the hockey stick?
Whatever the case, this is the first time you’ve found it necessary to use your formidable Agitprop skills on me. Bully for you. Chili for me.
was this posted already? The site’s golem says it was. But I can’t find it.
The issues we try to discuss in this forum don’t require anyone to be a professional. It does help if one has had at least a little training and experience. But it’s not required.
Those of us who live in Israel, and have been active in what’s laughingly called “Right Wing” politics see a different perspective than others. Merely quoting R’ Meir Kahane is enough to get one tagged as an extremist. And those of us who actually take seriously a very old history of believing that, at some point, the Malchut will be restored… we’re called all kinds of dirty names, all summed up in one word: “extremist”.
Fine. Taking the Shemona Esrei literally makes one an extremist. But so what? It doesn’t put the believer in the same category as Abbas, Hamas, or Amira Haas…. all either actively pursuing violence against Jews, or justifying that violence with mythology about oppression.
In one reply to Bear Klein I focused on his claim to be a highly trained professional. I went further to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that his level of training and experience is even higher than he’s indicated.
Perhaps I didn’t make it clear that I don’t question his claim… but do question his method of reasoning and the conclusions he’s reached as witnessed by his statements urging unquestioning obedience to whatever the Security Establishment says.
BK made a rather weak disclaimer, something to the effect of “I don’t have all the facts and don’t make a judgment”… but went right back to his ‘code of silence’ and ‘circle the wagons’ rhetoric that, in itself, lends credence to his claim to be a highly trained security professional (or semi-professional.
I, too, don’t have facts; but I’m willing to stick with my original position… that BK is an even bigger macher than he admits.
Compare BK’s defensive, “let’s all be obedient to the authorities” rhetoric to the following comment from someone I know for certain is a professional. I’ve anonymized his comment that appeared on a discussion list where active and retired security professionals make use of OSINT while deploying the techniques they learned from their training and experience.