By Peloni
From now on comments on every post must relate to the content of the post.
Comments that don’t relate to the post must go here.
Any person who contravenes this demand will be put on moderation. Also their offending comment will be trashed.
The reason for this demand is so that people who want to read comments which pertain to the post, don’t have to wade through the chatter.
Everyone will be happier.
Right, guys, but what does any of this have to do with the decision to start a war?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwfdbTvJDaQ
@ketzel2
You are quite correct, they did not try. As I noted, the West only uses their outrage over liberal transgressions to manipulate the people, not to actually enforce liberal policies.
@Peloni, I really don’t know what happened with the church, but they are at war, and there are a lot of churches. Maybe trained investigators are too busy to vet every church during wartime. Not everyone is as fastidious to the point of suicide as Israel.
Re: Lira, I agree the US should have done more for him while he was in prison, however, the international outrage over Navalny’s death is similar, it didn’t get much coverage until it was too late. The famous people who are expressing outrage over Navalny’s death could have said more earlier. I don’t know if that would have saved him, but they didn’t try.
@ketzel2
Regarding the Russian Orthodox Church, I find the sentiment that the entire religious order was involved in state wide espionage to be as meritless as the notion that the opposition was doing the same. It went hand in glove with Zel’s policy of de-Russification of the Ukrainian people, and this, I would argue, is the more realistic basis for such a despotic undertaking of banning the religion in its entirety rather than prosecuting those who were found to be committing espionage by the SBU, which is should not be considered to be an honest broker in any situation.
Regarding Ukraine vs Russia, your description of things getting wierder as you move further east seems fairly noted, but Ukraine wasn’t the point of my comparison. It was the institutional complicity, toleration and quiet support by the West of Lira’s death which was completely within their power to have addressed and reproached to which I challenged the faux outrage raised over Navalny’s death. The despots of the West have no interest in liberal Western freedoms beyond using them to manipulate the people towards supporting the political initiatives which are of interest at any given moment.
Just for clarification.
@Peloni wrote
I didn’t understand at first why this was done, as Ukraine is Orthodox as well. But I read an analysis by someone, I forget who, that seems to explain it. It seems the Russian Orthodox churches were being used for spying, the police had found evidence of information gathering and sending comms back to Russia, that’s why the churches were shuttered.
I don’t know this for a fact, but it seemed plausible. Much like mosques are used in the west, so it’s not anti-muslim per se to go after mosques that are used that way.
When I was in Kyiv, I lived near the beautiful Ukrainian Orthodox St. Volodymyr’s Cathedral, and anytime I passed by, I saw ordinary people going in and participating in the beautiful service that was open to tourists if you stood in the back and covered your hair. The church was always full. Ukraine is very respectful of religion, they wouldn’t harsh on any Orthodox church without a good reason.
Hi, Ketzel2
Baltic Avenue. I think P—– & Co. have hit bottom, in their authoritarian worship.
@Peloni, I don’t think Lira’s murder has the same implications for the West as something similar in the USA. Although Ukraine may have been leaning West, it was pretty exotic and somewhat non-western when I visited. The farther east you go, the weirder things are. I don’t have the same expectations of the Ukrainian govt that I would have for the American government. Actually, they have the same excuse as Putin, that they are at war. But there is no excuse. I would paint with a broad brush when it comes to murder of non-violent people.
@Sebastien
Quite true. Furthermore, it would be quite untrue to suggest the opposite, ie that there isn’t a thing you could say about Zel which wouldn’t apply to Putin. Point in fact, the shuttering of an entire major religion including the imprisonment or banishment of its clergy members.
This is eastern Europe. The lack of democratic norms forms what constitutes historical normality in that region of the world, and in time of war, as you wisely note, govts fail to maintain such liberal considerations as would be expected during peacetime.
Additionally, I would argue further that Putin has been the most liberal leader of Russia in its entire lengthy history going back many centuries. This could certainly not be said to be true of Zel, even given the fact that Ukraine’s national history only goes back a few decades.
ketzel2
I would argue that what happens in Russia affects the Russian people far more than it does those in the West, just as what happens in the West affects the people of the West far more than it does those in Russia.
Considering the hushed coverage or condemnation of Lira’s death, which was completely predictable by anyone aware of Lira’s situation, his death was sanctioned by the West, even as that of Navalny was not. In fact, I would argue that the public condemnation of Navalny’s death is completely opportunistic and insincere in nature. It is public posturing over the subject of freedom of the press and freedom of speech which has significant relevance to the general public of the West, whose govts have no interest in tolerating or promoting such matters in the West, even as they condemn such limitations as are being enforced in Russia, which is under threat of war with the West, and which is fighting a proxy war with the West.
The example you raised of the Jan. 6 protesters makes this point quite well. As I noted previously, I disliked Lira from nearly the first time I listened to him, and quickly came to recognize his openly antisemitic nature which he took little to no effort to conceal. His unchastised murder by Ukrainian State Police, however, affects all of us in the West far more significantly than does the publicly condemned death of Nalalny, as Lira was murdered for practicing rights and privileges which made the West more Western than Russia, and yet only crickets critiqued or questioned his murder in the months that have passed since his death. This was actually the point which I was trying to make in sharing the comparison between the deaths of these two men.
@Peloni
I’ve noticed here and there people comparing Lira’s death to this one. Like you have to pick which is worse. Both are shameful. Torture of political prisoners. Ditto the Jan. 6 protesters.
I saw a video of people in Serbia chanting insults at Putin in front of the Russian embassy. Good, and surprising.
Even Tucker Carlson is shocked at this event.
The shills at Redacted are twisting themselves into pretzels. I don’t think I’ll watch that show anymore, they’re low-rent.
Oh, 2 or more can play that game.
https://eightify.app/summary/ukraine-conflict/american-journalist-gonzalo-lira-found-dead-in-ukrainian-prison-sparks-human-rights-concerns
“Witchhunt in Ukraine against journalists, activists and left-wing politicians”
https://www.pressenza.com/2022/03/witchhunt-in-ukraine-against-journalists-activists-and-left-wing-politicians/
“Citing martial law, Ukraine president signs decree to combine national TV channels into one platform”
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/citing-martial-law-ukraine-president-signs-decree-combine-national-tv-channels-2022-03-20/
“Ukrainian Parliament Moves To Outlaw Orthodox Church for ‘Russia Links’”
https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/ukrainian-parliament-moves-to-outlaw-orthodox-church-for-russia-links/
“Ukraine Bans Political Opposition
Not just pro-Russian political parties, but individual dissidents, have been dealt with harshly by Ukrainian law and Ukrainian mobs.”
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/ukraine-bans-political-opposition/
When it comes to internal governance, there isn’t a thing you could say about Putin that wouldn’t apply to Zelensky, so it’s irrelevant. Moreover, most of the countries in the world are fairly repressive especially in wartime. So, it really shouldn’t even be on the table.
@Michael
Did you think you had reserved a private chat line in the chit-chat box? LOL.
In all fairness, you do seem somewhat apprehensive about having your views challenged. As I have stated previously, this is an open forum, and as Sebastien noted quite well, the more the merrier. Ad hominem and censorship stifle conversation and limit viewpoints which should be freely expressed, and yet those viewpoints should always be open to being challenged. Indeed, you can expect that others will comment on such sentiments and opinions as you care to post, and in fact, I would argue that this is the very purpose in actually posting anything at all.
@ketzel2
Do recall that Russia passed legislation clearly making it illegal for any protests made against the govt during the war were illegal, and warnings were made to remind the public of this fact after the news of Navalny’s death broke. Kara-Murza is an extreme example of those foolish enough to test this law, but there are others. This is unfortunate, but as I noted before, govts under significant threat during war commit foolish crimes against the people. Do recall the case of Eugene Debs who ran afoul of the Sedition Act of 1918, which made it a crime to “willfully utter, print, write, or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States”, and notably, the US in 1918 faced no similar threat to that which Russia faces today.
It is curious, however, that Sky News failed to raise any objection, or even report, the death of the US citizen journalist Gonzo Lira who was killed while being held in a Ukrainian prison some months ago. Indeed, no MSM has commented on Lira’s death in the months since he died, and the US govt raised no objection beyond confirming Lira’s death. Yet, the death of Navalny, who was neither a journalist nor an American citizen has gained significant coverage by all media outlets in just hours after his death, and in that same time, the US govt has publicly condemned Navalny’s death. Quite a telling double standard I would suggest.
Russian police arrest mourners and journalists at Navalny gatherings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfRU7MVL-rg
A German state mandates the recognition of Israel in citizenship application
Saxony-Anhalt introduces requirement for applicants to affirm in writing that they back Jewish state’s ‘right to exist and condemn any efforts directed against’ its existence
@Laura
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/385272
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-pledges-expel-immigrants-who-support-hamas-ban-muslims-us-2023-10-16/#:~:text=Promising%20to%20drastically%20tighten%20U.S.,fascist%2C%20you%20are%20disqualified.%22
@Michael https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b31BwYA5-Zo
@Michael Every conversation is a group conversation. The more the merrier.
Statement Concerning Evacuation of Avdiivka
https://tlgrm.eu/channels/@pilotblog/9960
Hundreds of Russian expatriates and Russian Jews demonstrated tonight in front of the Russian embassy in Tel Aviv to mourn the murder of Alexei Navalny.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1758636704578392081
https://twitter.com/Osint613/status/1758459407568920962
These butchers must not be rewarded for their attrocities with a state carved from our homeland, not under any condition and not to appease any foreign power.
Peloni,
As usual, you’re trying to make an issue where none exists. I responded to Sebastien’s comment, which compared the amount of aid to Israel to the amount to Ukraine. He believed the two countries should get the same amount of aid (or that Israel should get more). I disagreed. End of story. It was between Sebastien and me. Then you butted in, insulting me as you went. I didn’t solicit these comments. Now you’re saying,
What planet have you been living on? Are you that confused? or just trying to pick a fight? or what? I don’t believe I should have to explain these things to you, but here it goes:
Congress has been squabbling over a spending bill. Despite your unbelief, the vcote has split along party lines, and many roadblocks have blocked its passage. That’s what I would call a “divisive issue”. The Republicans have been rejecting the bill, because it does not address the US border issue, which the vast majority of Americans see as our #1 critical interest. All the rest is obfuscation, including the volumes of digital ink spilled by you. Stop trying to make it more than it is,
I don’t agree with everything Bill Maher says but some of it is spot on and he’s the only comic, these days, who makes me laugh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhaYBsS4TEE&t
@Laura
still think there’s no difference?
https://www.jns.org/us-arabs-rushing-plan-to-establish-palestinian-state/
@Michael
@Michael
I criticized the basis upon which you seem to feel US aid should be spent. It does strike me that foreign populations and foreign need would be universally
agreed to be an arbitrary framework for allocating US aid, which is why I describe it as being both whimsical and silly, not yourself. If you disagree, you might explain why that might be rather than repeatedly dodging the reason why you find these parameters to be a relevant basis of US aid. I thought that perhaps it might either be your attempt at sarcasm or that you raised these suggestions without thinking it thru, but your overly defensive response and return to abusive remarks would suggest otherwise.
As to having the cheek to comment on how US aid is spent, well, there is enough cheek to go around and there is no crime in holding such an opinion as I described which I do believe is well based. Hence, if my opinion disturbs you, I would suggest you simply explain why basing foreign aid on foreign need or population might be more relevant than basing it on US interests as I described.
In fact, I wouldn’t think that allocating US dollars based on US interests would be a divisive issue, but it seems that with you at least it is. The US obviously has every right to choose the basis of whom to support with its Yankee dollars, and indeed, the US has been paying some pretty high dollars to some pretty dodgy groups for a very long time, while undermining its own position and interests around the world, without reason or rationale. Again, Israel would not be listed among those dodgy groups, while Ukraine and Hamas clearly are.
In any event, you do seem a bit touchy and offensive, so I hope you have a better rest of your day.
Peloni, the gist of your argument was that I am “silly”. I responded to that.
What were you trying to say, besides that? Oh, yes:
You added that besides being “silly”, I am “whimsical”. What sort of reply do you expect from that?? Haven’t you noticed that money to Israel, money to Ukraine and money to Taiwan are on the same bill as money to defend the US border? How does this become “whimsical” when I talk about it? You also say,
Could that be, because I wasn’t asked to chastise them?? How much more off the topic do you want to meander? Your entire point in this exercise, seems to have been to malign me. What’s your oily answer to that? It was Sebastien who said,
I responded to him, not you. Are you somehow our accountant? It’s American taxpayers who are expected to cough up the money, whether it be 4 billion or 10 billion or 60 billion. You have some cheek, criticizing what we do with OUR money, complaining when we give your friends a free gift and saying it’s not enough. Go f–k yourself! Then you pile onto it, saying my own country’s borders are not important. F–k yourself with a blow torch!
@Michael
Another non-responsive response to the argument I posed to you. So should we assume that you agree or that you simply don’t have a counter argument to make?
@MIchael
– Buddhist proverb
Ted, my most recent post was diverted. Please see if you can find it.
Hi, Felix
Please give Vladimir credit for having his own narrative, independent of us Americans. He does; and he laid it out pretty well: it is rooted in his biased, surprisingly antisemitic take on Russian history. That said, I was struck by your own motives: replacing “people” with “Felix”, I read,
In your case, of course, the “conspiracy” theory — which ultimately speaks of the “American narrative” — was scripted by Karl Marx. Re-written in Wokeist English, “The American white, Christian, capitalist oppressor has caused all your problems.”
Do you really think the British were “good”? Is that why you think they ended up ruling the world for over 100 years? Is that why the Christian Englishman Isaac Newton discovered the key to understanding nature? Is that what propelled the British and Americans to industrialize the world? Was it because they were “good”?
Jesus said, “There is none good, but God”; but as humans go, who range from desperately wicked to “so so”, The English didn’t do badly. Until the Americans surpassed them in this endeavor, they translated the Bible and carried it into all the world. If that characterizes them as “good”, then have your way. My take on it is that they have been dilligent; and
Proverbs 12:
[24] The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.
Putin does credit the Americans, for being in charge of the world. He isn’t happy with this state of affairs, and is eager to bring us down. In my old-fashioned, “American narrative” way of thinking, this means that Putin is my enemy, along with his allies: China, Iran, Hamas…
If America rules the world, it does so only by God’s consent; and that, not because we are “good”. By His will we are lifted up, and by His will we will eventually be put down; and the “narrative” that will ultimately prevail is HIS.
@Michael Sounds like a great idea for an advertising meme for a savings bank. 😀
and Victor Davis Hansen is also very good but I am reminded of this terrific Chinese fantasy I saw in the theater, apropos of nothing,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALSjmws8ZAE
The key point in the Interview was when Putin cautioned about the unreality of – ability to challenge the American “NARRATIVE”. There’s lots of words on Israpundit about very many things but that is not ever confronted. The British were good but since America took over they are massive. So powerful that people feel powerless and automatically seek answers in conspiracy theory weaving. I see Israpundit as caught in that web.
Peloni,
One finger points forward; the other three point back at you. “Silly” is apologizing for Putin, who apologizes for Hitler — “silly”, and more. To quote Victor Davis Hansin, “If it paid better, you’d be a fascist.”
Sebastien,
I certainly could do much better — for instance, in Victor Davis Hansen:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1757742976661356839
I trust in Jesus, who died for me. Even Hansen can’t touch that. Note what Hansen said:
That’s the condition all our “friends” are in here, including the Trotskyites. If they were sent to the cross to pay my price, they would all curse God in order to be set free. No, I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto him, against that day.
@Michael
You could do worse. 😀
@Michael
These are quite arbitrary reasons to supply aid to anyone. US aid should be used to promote US interests. Period. It isn’t a charity buffet, and it isn’t a population contest. US dollars should be able to pursue US interests, and while aid going to Israel does support US interests, it will fail to do so in Ukraine.
Aid to Ukraine will not blanche their defeat, but will only prolong the war while Ukraine continues to lose more men and more land as took place over the past year. which has hardly served US interests. The US simply can not compete with Russia’s military dominance in munitions and hardware. Hence the best foot forward would be for the US to step off of Ukraine’s neck and allow them to seek a settlement with Russia, preserve what remains of the Rumped Ukraine and US dollars and end this war.
Unlike Ukraine, Israel does have the ability to secure US interests in the Middle East. While the administration will co-opt control over any aid passed in the Congress, Israel does preserve US interests in the region by blocking the Iranian threat to US interests, which ironically enough, the US administration has fostered and secured to specifically diminish US interests in the region, and continues to do so. Nonetheless, US interests would be well served by aiding Israel as she ramps up her own supply of munitions. The aid sent to Israel has always presented a force multiplier benefit, and has unfortunately been used to keep Israel on a leash.
Your silly comparison of aid being considered to these two nations to the security of the US border is another unrelated absurdity. Of course the US should preserve, protect and secure her own border, but not because of Israel or Ukraine, and not to spite Israel or Ukraine, but because this is a basic responsibility of the US govt. The fact that the US has failed to challenge the White House to do is the source of that problem, not America’s ability or need to support either Israel or Ukraine, which I have noted previously.
One more thing. While you have challenged aid going to Israel is counter-intuitively less needed than Ukraine, and that both are somehow whimsically relatable to the US border, again a bizarre notion, you failed to chastise the $10 billion going to the Hamas who began the war against Israel and committed the atrocities on October 7. Curiously, for every US dollar proposed to go to Hamas, Israel would get just $1.40, while Ukraine would get $6. Hence, if something in this package should be challenged it is neither the aid being wasted in Ukraine nor that being sent to Israel, but that being notoriously given to Hamas. Why has this missed your thorough criticism of this aid package, which Glick notes is the reason why some of Israel’s greatest allies have withheld their support of it. You also notably failed to raise issue with the fact that there is a provision in this bill which will make it illegal for Trump to block aid to Ukraine when he becomes president. While you are parroting the objections of Carlson over the aid going to Israel and Zel, you really should pay more attention to the leverage being granted to these threats to US interests which are far more duplicitous and toxic than the arguments about populations, or need.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/384936
I think the Haredim should have to do some kind of national service – maybe building houses in Yesha instead of guest workers from abroad? – but being required to do military service? 😀 (though I know some have volunteered and I assume are doing their jobs well.)
From the Movie, “Frisco Kid” with Gene Wilder and Harrison Ford. (1979)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8o1ZYVPfsY
I once asked a liberal Democrat on Facebook if she now thought we should have supported South Vietnam to the end and she accused me of gaslighting her. 😀
@Michael What does population size have to do with military aid? Everybody’s afraid to go head to head with the IDF including Russia.
https://www.jns.org/israelis-prioritize-defeating-hamas-over-freeing-hostages/
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-786823
Tanna,
I have news for those Russians, trying to take over outer space!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAZhtT-dUyo
Peloni,
My Crimean commentator has come up with a marvelous teaching tool: MAPS. Take a look:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682
Hi, Sebastien
Is there any group that is NOT losing support for Israel? especially among young people? My neighborhood has Ukrainian flags everywhere; but the only Israeli flag, save on my house now and then, flies in front of a local church.
Concerning aid, have you considered that Ukraine has four times as many people as Israel? or that they are not as wealthy? or that they are in the middle of a war, in which a thousand people are killed every day? The US is not obligated to support either country; but based on need, I would say more should go to Kiev.
That said, the country that should receive most of our aid is the US. It’s simply stupid, to help Israel or Ukraine defend their borders, but to let terrorists flow into the US by the thousands.
@Michael
If this is what your Crimean commentator is feeding you, I think you need to get a new source. A year ago Bakhmut was in Ukrainian hands, and more importantly, so was Avdiika. Also a year ago, Ukraine had raised their third army, which was fully stocked and preparing to march to the sea in their famed Spring offensive which mutated into the failed Summer offensive. Ukraine has no such significant force today, their munitions are depleted, their ranks are dwindled, and they have a new commander who likes to feed meat into meatgrinders and has a history of holding ground even as the defenders are cutoff and surrounded. Such details are significant. Ukraine has been losing territory along all fronts for some time now. And all you can say is look at the ship we just sank??? If the entire Black Fleet were sunk, it would not improve Ukraine’s position one iota because the battlefield is on land. As I noted previously, Neocons who find such victories as worthy of celebration are simply looking at destroying Russia rather than preserving Ukraine.
Last Russian hoax coming out of the Intelligent community. Russia is going to take over Outerspace. O my gracious…… The Russians are coming the Russians are coming. Hey, Michael, you might be correct. There making a play to call off the elections this November.
@Michael
https://www.jpost.com/christianworld/article-786545
@Michael It’s a reason for Israel to become self-sufficient and independent of America. But, even as things stand, Israel is not as dependent on America as Ukraine. Look at the disparity in the aid package. !4 billion for Israel and 60 for Ukraine.