Some Christians embrace Jews and Israel for the right reasons while others do not.
Matthew M. Hausman, J.D.
Support for Israel among evangelical Christians is a growing phenomenon that has many American Jews scratching their heads and asking questions. Is Christian support sincere or is it merely subterfuge to facilitate the missionary impulse? Do Christian “love offerings” for Israel come with theological strings or are they presented free and clear?
These questions are understandable given the long history of Christian anti-Semitism and missionary excess. However, an alarming number of secular Jews today are so divorced from Jewish tradition and practice that these questions are devoid of historical context. Skepticism regarding evangelical support is often informed by liberal political sensibilities, and suspicion of evangelicals’ motivations is more likely influenced by distrust of their social and political conservatism than by any collective memory of the horrors suffered by the Jews in Europe.
Ironically, those who marginalize Christian Zionists are often the same people who naively sit with Islamist groups in the name of interfaith dialogue, who excuse the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (“BDS”) movement because of its progressive roots, and who preach acceptance of a revisionist Palestinian narrative that denies historical Jewish claims.
Many Christians today believe in Israel’s right to exist. Conversely, few Muslims do, if any.
Whereas Muslim groups with whom liberals seek discourse often believe as a matter of faith that the Jews were subjugated and have no right to sovereignty in their homeland, many Christians support Jewish historical claims and are not afraid to back up their words with actions. Regardless of their motivations, many Christians today believe in Israel’s right to exist. Conversely, few Muslims do, if any.
Such words and actions were on display on May 19th at the “United Jerusalem Day Celebration” sponsored by the Victory Assembly of G-d Church in Sharon, Massachusetts. The program featured a diverse array of speakers, including: Shai Bazak, Israel’s Consul General to New England; Colonel Amnon Meir, the IDF’s Liaison Officer to TRADOC; Cathy Lanyard, Executive Director of American Friends of ALYN Hospital-Jerusalem; and Rabbi Jonathan Hausman, an American congregational rabbi who speaks internationally on Islam, Sharia and free speech issues and who serves on the board of American Friends of ALYN.
The keynote address was delivered by Dr. Pat Robertson, Chairman of the Christian Broadcasting Network, and affecting words were offered by Pastor Joe Green, of Rabbis and Ministers for Israel, Dick Ingram, Senior Pastor of Victory Church, and Rev. Fumio Taku, President of Christians and Jews United for Israel.
The program was billed as “a non-partisan event for all friends of Israel,” and indeed it seemed to be. There was no hint of replacement theology in the remarks offered by any of the Christian clergy, and there were no religious displays that would have offended Jewish sensibilities. Instead of crucifixes, the auditorium was draped in American and Israeli flags. And instead of taking a collection to support church or missionary activities, all donations from the crowd were dedicated to ALYN, consistent with promotional literature stating that all proceeds of “a freewill love offering . . . will be given to benefit the physically disabled children of ALYN Hospital in Jerusalem.” The evangelical community is proving to be a fertile ground for fundraising by Jewish institutions.
The Christian audience gave warm applause as the Jewish speakers offered their insights on Israel, her relationship with the United States, and her future as a safe and secure Jewish nation. Yet, one could not help but wonder whether the crowd was clapping for the right reasons. Were these displays of support for Israel based on a theology that demands the Jews’ return and ultimate conversion, or on the acceptance of Jewish text and history on their own terms without the need to inject Christological meaning where it neither exists nor belongs?
The answer is somewhat complicated and requires analysis of both perspectives. Some Christians clearly support Israel only because they believe that the ingathering and conversion of the Jews is necessary to usher in the “Rapture” as prophesied in Christian scripture. However, others appear to support Israel because they accept the validity of Jewish belief, practice and history.
Some evangelical communities accept Tanach without the need to torture the language and Christianize the message, and many are familiar with Jewish history. Indeed, many evangelicals understand that the Jews originated in ancient Israel and continued to have a presence there after the Dispersion, that their religious and national identity is organically intertwined with their homeland, and that they are connected by descent as well as belief wherever they live.
A generation ago, evangelical supporters of Israel were more likely to believe that the return of the Jews was a prerequisite for Armageddon, and such views were based in part on the corruption or misperception of Tanach and rabbinic literature. However, the understanding of Judaism began to evolve for many evangelicals as their knowledge of Jewish text and history began to improve; and since the 1980s many of them have become staunch supporters of Israel and Jewish institutions. Clearly, many Christians today respect the integrity of Jewish religion and national identity.
Many of them admire the Hebrew canon and are acutely aware of the affinity between the values it contains and American constitutional principles. Moreover, many Christians today have renounced evangelization of the Jews as they have come to appreciate the contextual relationship between the Jewish and Christian traditions. It is not lost on many of them that Christianity could not exist without Judaism, but that its existence is irrelevant to the continuity of Jewish belief, practice and identity.
For some, the frame of reference has changed as they’ve come to learn how Judaism differs from Christianity in certain fundamental respects; for example, in the absence of a missionary imperative. The Rabbis long ago recognized that Jewish observance is incumbent only upon the Jews because of their unique ancestry and covenant with the Almighty, but that other peoples can come to know G-d through their own belief systems and by acceptance of the seven Noahide commandments. Accordingly, some Christians reject replacement theology because they believe that the covenant between G-d and those Jews who intuitively suspect the motivations of Christian Zionists are not wrong for questioning their intent.
Abraham remains unbroken and, consequently, that there is no need to “save” Jews through conversion to Christianity. Then again, there are still denominations, like the Southern Baptist Convention, that continue to target Jews for conversionary harassment.
Those Jews who intuitively suspect the motivations of Christian Zionists are not wrong for questioning their intent. In light of Christendom’s traditionally poor treatment of Jews since the days of Constantine, the burden is on pro-Israel Christians to show that their motives are genuine. However, it cannot be ignored that many of those who distrust Christian intent are secular progressives who seem more offended by the evangelical stance on social issues than by the history of the pogroms, Crusades, expulsions and genocides. Interestingly, these same critics generally have no problem dialoguing with Arab-Muslim groups that reject Israel’s right to exist and whose theological outlook has exuded anti-Semitism since the rise of Islam.
Secular westerners often buy into the myth of Muslim tolerance though they have little understanding of Islamic doctrine or the history of Jews in Muslim society. As those of Sephardic, Mizrachi or Yemeni ancestry can attest, Jewish life in the Arab-Muslim world was precarious at best; and the stark realities of that life characterized Islamic culture long before the rebirth of the Jewish State in 1948. Indeed, Maimonides in his Epistle to Yemen in 1172 addressed the issue of Muslim persecution during a period when the Jews of Yemen were suffering horribly at the hands of the Shiite Arabs. That this persecution preceded the modern State of Israel by eight centuries should debunk the revisionist claim that Muslim anti-Semitism is the result of alleged Israeli aggression and is not endemic to Islamic society.
Those familiar with the Quran know that its blueprint for dealing with Jews is far from tolerant, as illustrated by the account of Mohammed’s slaughter of the Jews of Yathrib (al-Medina). Traditionally, Jews in Muslim society were degraded, segregated, and denied equal rights. Since the early Islamic period, when Jews were forced to wear distinctive clothing and were often physically branded, they have been subjected to all forms of harassment. In many Arab countries, Jews were required to live in ghettos and were not permitted to use the same public bathhouses as Muslims.
Throughout the Mideast and North Africa, Jews were subjected to pogroms, massacres and forced conversions much as they were in Europe. There was little benevolence shown to Jews living under Muslim rule during Spain’s “Golden Age,” when Maimonides and his family fled their native Cordoba after the conquering Almohads gave the Jewish community the choice of conversion to Islam or death.
As a people of dhimmi (i.e., subjugated) status, Jews had few substantive rights, and their survival hinged on the mercurial indulgence of the Muslim majority. Although many in the West believe that Jewish life was more tolerable in Muslim lands, the general treatment of Jews was often not much different than in Christian Europe. In fact, some of the most emblematic symbols of European anti-Semitism, such as laws requiring Jews to wear distinctive badges and clothing, were innovations brought back from the Muslim world by the Crusaders. But as secular, democratic society evolved, Jews in much of the West tended to fare better than they did under Islam. Not surprisingly, the only place in the Mideast where Christians have always enjoyed equal rights and religious freedom is Israel.
The disparate way secular progressives regard Christians and Muslims reflects the misguided endorsement of political Islam as a natural reaction against western chauvinism. This view, however, ignores the history of Islamist supremacism and the expansionist aims of jihad, which instigated Arab-Muslim conquests in Europe and Eurasia long before the first Crusader ever set foot in the Mideast. The clash of civilizations caused by these jihadist incursions continues to fuel tensions and unrest in the Balkans and the Caucasus today.
Those who question whether Christian Zionists should be embraced or rebuffed need to look inward and address how support for Israel and Jewish institutions has dissipated among secular Jews and the nontraditional movements in recent years.
They need to ask why only 25% of American Jews have ever visited Israel and why so many liberal Jews support organizations like J Street and the New Israel Fund, which claim to support Israel and Jewish values, but which in reality promote and enable those who flout those values and seek Israel’s destruction.
They need to ask why so many progressive Jews, including many Reform, Conservative and Reconstructionist rabbis, advocate a Palestinian narrative that is fundamentally anti-Semitic and premised on a denial of Jewish history. Finally, they need to ask why so many of their numbers actively support the BDS movement and Israel Apartheid Week, and why they falsely promote the progressive agenda as inherently consistent with Jewish values even when it conflicts with traditional Jewish law.
Secular Jews also need to analyze whether certain establishment organizations, such as the Anti-Defamation League, still represent Jewish values and interests or if political correctness has rendered them irrelevant. Jewish advocates should be troubled by the ADL’s preoccupation with “Islamophobia” when law enforcement statistics actually show that anti-Muslim discrimination occurs very rarely in the United States. Though the ADL worries about the dramatic increase in anti-Semitism, it ironically ignores the role that doctrinal Islam plays in spreading Jew-hatred. Instead, it persists in exhorting against an anti-Muslim bias that statistically seems not to exist, and in cooperating with Muslim advocacy groups to lobby against legislative efforts (as in Florida) seeking to prevent the intrusion of foreign laws, including Sharia, into state judicial systems.
A sad reality of American life is that support for Jewish causes – not just for Israel – has fallen dramatically among secular and liberal Jews and in the nontraditional movements. Although there is nothing inherently wrong with Jews supporting non-Jewish institutions such as universities and hospitals, it should not divert their attention from Jewish philanthropies. Those who choose instead to support organizations that promote BDS activities, accuse Israel of apartheid, and oppose her continuity as a Jewish state have no standing to criticize Jewish institutions that accept Christian donations.
If giving to philanthropies and institutions that support Israel or promote traditional Jewish values is no longer a priority for secular and progressive Jews – many of whom instead support organizations that challenge Israel’s legitimacy – then Christian contributions should not be rejected out of hand. However, accepting evangelical support does not obviate the obligation to scrutinize the motivations behind it. Christian supporters should be vetted and screened for conversionary agendas, and their donations should be rejected if they intend to proselytize or enable messianic Judaism in any way.
Because so many aspects of Christian doctrine are antithetical to Jewish belief and practice, any movement claiming to integrate both belief systems is internally flawed and incongruent.
In fact, evangelicals’ regard for “Jewish Christians” may provide a measure of their intentions. Messianic Judaism is simply Christianity with a superficial overlay of Jewish customs and traditions, and a large percentage of its constituency is not halakhically Jewish. Moreover, messianic “rabbi ministers” are missionaries with no rabbinical authority, whose understanding of messianic redemption is Christian rather than Jewish and whose theology is incompatible with normative Judaism. Because so many aspects of Christian doctrine are antithetical to Jewish belief and practice, any movement claiming to integrate both belief systems is internally flawed and incongruent. Those evangelicals who insist on bringing messianic Jews to the table should be regarded with suspicion.
Nevertheless, at a time when support for Israel among secular, liberal and nontraditional segments of the Jewish population is waning, other resources must be marshaled to fill the void. Some Christian Zionists have pure intentions; but even those with surreptitious agendas may well have the capacity to learn and grow. If anything, the warm reception and expressions of good will at the United Jerusalem Day Celebration in Massachusetts seemed to evidence the ability to mature in understanding.
The bottom line is that some Christians embrace Jews and Israel for the right reasons while others do not. Therefore, evangelical donations should be viewed with a healthy sense of caveat emptor until the givers’ true intentions can be determined. But with secular and liberal giving to Israel and Jewish institutions on the decline, and in light of Israel’s need to cultivate allies abroad, it may not be wise to reject all offers of Christian support automatically without first evaluating its purpose.
Matthew M. Hausman is a trial attorney and writer who lives and works in Connecticut. A former journalist, Mr. Hausman continues to write on a variety of topics, including science, health and medicine, Jewish issues and foreign affairs, and has been a legal affairs columnist for a number of publications.
Andy Lewis Said:
That poor old sway back should put to pasture
No such word in Spanish. I had to look up and find vergonzoso
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0nQMgaJibc
Lay off your Spanish, Carido! Ud no lo sabe.
Two natures.
The Father is greater than his Human nature. But the Father and Jesus’s Divine nature are equal.
A General is greater than a private (in the army); but as citizens they are equal in the voting booth.
Two distinct, yet joined natures.
This is why the Father could refer to him as the Son. He was referring to his human nature.
I do not want to get Ted mad at us, so I will not go into more.
Yamit, he has two natures, one human, one divine.
I know you do not accept it, but that is your answer.
Ted does not want us clogging up the site with theological debate, but here is a link to the proof.
http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures
I know you probably won’t read it, but I do not want to publish more, out of respect for Ted.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Usted es un pervertido depravado!!! Are you the blond with the fat ass?
CuriousAmerican Said:
Matthew 3:17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 20:20-23 The mother of the sons of Zebedee… said to him 21 [Jesus], “Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 But Jesus answered and said…, 23″You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell on his face to the ground and prayed, saying, “O my Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.
Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
Mark 13:32 “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father.”
John 8:17-18 “In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
John 14:28 “…I [Jesus] go unto the Father, for my father is greater than I.” 🙂 😀 😛 Speaks for itself!!!!
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her [Mary], “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.”
@ CuriousAmerican:
DISGRASIADO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ yamit82:
Beautiful people, the Israelis don’t look ike American Jews, They are tougher.
Yo soy lo mejor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CludKHfaVDo
CuriousAmerican Said:
Carrido ,you can’t hold a candle to Yamit 82, entiende!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ CuriousAmerican:
It’s not that we don’t YIELD ONE INCH here, we would love to if there was something to yield to. As I mentioned before, we study the claims that have been made about us or anyone who is Jewish. Many people have claimed to be G-d or godlike – that doesn’t mean they are. On the contrary, when Jesus asked his disciples who do people say that I am, there were many responses. He himself did not claim to be G-d in the flesh. He prayed to G-d. Why do you need to pray to yourself?
@ honeybee:
Isn’t there already a separate thread for John Kerry?
@ dove:
I am not going to get into a theological debate with you; but there are Christian answers.
Elsewhere Jesus declared his deity.
Ted does not want us to make this a theological forum, but frankly, NO ONE YIELDS ONE INCH HERE.
I merely countered Yamit’s misreprestantions. I did not go into detail out of respect for Ted.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Suppose for the sake of argument Jesus actually said ‘I will be back’. According to evangelical christians they claim to be messengers, ambassadors – so would it not be possible that it would have been G-d who used Jesus as a messemger to deliver a message that G-d would be back – not Jesus – the man. G-d does show up every now and again and I would urge you to study the Jewish Prophets and the times in history it is said that G-d was very present. Like when the sea opened and swallowed up the oppressors. Did anyone ever refer to Moses as G-d? Why not? Did he not have alot of power? Why is it that you can recognize that his power was from G-d but you can’t seem to grasp that possibility with the story of Jesus. Yes, I did say story – not trying to get factual. Same as the Purim ‘story’. G-d has no face. G-d is spirit. We are not to put a face to G-d. We are made in G-ds image – translation – spiritual image – soul of G-d , not a physical image.
Yamit,
My wife and I have lived in rural western Dane County, Wisconsin since October 1, 1976; which was about two years after we returned to the USA after mostly two years of graduate-level university studies in Jerusalem and residence there and in the outskirts of Netanya. There is little to do with Judaism around here. Even so, when I could get around more easily to do these things, I unfailingly helped the local Lubavicher Rav to make up his Shabat morning minyan. And one evening that I never shall forget, that particular Lubavicher was host to Rav Meir Kahane, me and my wife for a dinner before we accompanied the great rav to face the Madison liberals at a speech he made on the Madison campus of the University of Wisconsin. Later that night, my wife and I hosted Rav Kahane overnight at what proved to be a singlular event. Some dozen or so young Jews from the campus drove all the way out to our home in the woods and listened to Rav Kahane in a real-life siyum, talking in person more or less the way you write, about the centrality of Judaisn to the existence of the Jewish nation.
An entirely new Jewish people will arise on the soil of Eretz-Yisrael, Yamit. In the fullness of time, they and their children and the children of their children will know little or nothing about the ways of the diaspora Jews. And I think the very nature of observance of those same Jewish Israelis — some 25 million of them before the end of this century, if Yoram Ettingers demographic projections prove relatively stable and reliable — will make of Judaism what the culture of the Jewish Israeli future will influence them to create. You do not have to worry about assimilation of those millions; the shelf-life of the Jewish nation is forever.
Maybe I could have done more for formal Judaism. But I cannot relive my life. I have done what I could do with the means available to me at the time I did it. That is all any man or woman can in truth report.
In any case, Rav Kahane and the local Lubavichers have not been my only Jewish influences. Over a number of months in summer 1974, before my wife and I left Israel, I spent each early Friday afternoon with the legendary Jewish fighter of the Lehi days, Dr Israel Eldad, who taught me much of what I learned of the potentials for the Jewish nation. He also taught me that, while I thought I was a good chess player, that he was a far better one. But that’s another story.
And by the way, Yamit. One of the reasons we decided not to remain in Israel after completing our studies is that we knew that summer that Heinrich Kissinger would blackmail the Israeli government into evacuating much of the Sinai peninsula, exactly as Eisenhower’s state and defense departments had done to Israel after the Sinai campaign in 1956-1957. I did not wish to remain in a place whose government had laden itself with shame by forcefully evacuating the homes of its Jewish citizens, which, I presume is what happened to you in the same Yamit that you named yourself after.
It is just too bad Jews cannot bring themselves to seriously develop tough nationalist street gangs of the type that can cause national insurrections. I sincerely hope that Jewish hands shall build another city of Yamit along the Sinai coast one day. Not for you in particular, but for the Jewish nation as a whole, and, I suppose, for the honor of haShem. But I don’t think any such thing as that will happen without a bunch of tough-minded Jews of the old Lehi type banding together and getting rid of the cowardly Judenrat that now controls the destiny of Israel. In the meantime, you serve the intentions of haShem your way, and I will do the same, but my way.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
@ honeybee:
Psalm 121 shir lamaalot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drHg0B28KH8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=24bOclbE_eg&NR=1
ArnoldHarris Said:
No such animal!! Without Judaism which defines and codifies Jewish nationalism. If it were not for Judaism Jews would have exited the stage of history more than 2 and a half millennium ago.
Funny a zealous Jewish nationalist in Mt Horeb WI. You are free to define your own terms but never call it Jewish unless it’s based on authentic Jewish Sources and that would require you to relate to the Jewish religion. There is no such animal either of a Jewish people unless it’s posited within the context to Tanach. Jews have no common history, language culture or land outside of Judaism and it’s Judaism which has been and still is the unifying glue bonding one Jew from India, China, Germany, Russia or America.
Secular nationalism is vapid and not generational sustainable. Even non Jewish orthodoxy has a shelf life of no more than 2-3 generations. Atheists much less. no reason to self sacrifice when caving into assimilationst pressures is so easy.
Apparently little of Kahane filtered down and had little influence on your world view.
@ ArnoldHarris:
With a nice cup of hot coffee and amd Danish.
Honey Bee: Okay by me. I won’t confuse you with Curious American.
Lots of opinions around here. Sort of drifting through. Like the fogs of an early countryside southern Wisconsin morning.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
ArnoldHarris Said:
Please do not confuse me with Curious American
Honeybee, Curious America, et al;
I think that what Yamit is trying to tell you is that Jews over the 3400 years following the exodus from Egypt have done everything possible to keep our own national identity and not to wash it away with the belief systems of non-Jews. We will do this forever, probably; politely, where possible, less so if you try to muscle us. Because anybody convinced against his or her will is not convinced at all.
Not for nothing have we been labelled the goi echad, a singularly unique and distinct nation. We aim to keep it that way.
Maybe you ought to spend your time and efforts more usefully cleansing Western Christianity of the social poisons of liberalism, and get back that Old Time Religion which probably was the essence of America from the time of the colonial settlements in the New World until about a century ago. If done successfully, it could result in the Great America that was already fading in the time of my childhood in the now remote 1930s and early 1940s.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
CuriousAmerican Said:
Who wrote Acts and when…? The Catholic Church attributed it to Luke but the author is unknown. It is also dated to the end of the first century by some scholars. Whose geneology of yeshu is correct Luke or Matthew? Couldn’t even get that one right. Dumb….!!!
Stolen from Pasalm 118:26
26. Blessed be he who has come in the name of the Lord; we have blessed you in the name of the Lord.
Baruch Haba B`shem Adonai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne5jThWWmJ4 Never, Never until the Temple is restored and sacrifices are returned.
“These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:’ Go nowhere among the gentiles, and enter ni town of the Samaritans, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
– Matthew 10:5-6
“For I tell you, you will not come to see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in the name of the lord’.”
– Matthew 23:29, upon which noted Jewish heretic David Stern (yemach shemo vezichro) stated in his Jewish New Testament commentary: “The fact that yeshu will not return until Israel receives national salvation is a powerful motivator for evangelizing Jewish people; in fact Jewish evangelism can hasten his coming.”
We Jews are holding up the show? 🙂
Curious American Said:
So you believe in sexuel intimegation as a means of social control. Sir ,you are no better then a Muslim.
@ yamit82:
But you must admitt “a good Jewish education is an armour against the world.”@ 1st Deborah 2nd verse.
@ yamit82:
You have a very strong point,The bravest Jewess of all was my tiny Grandmother Rifkah.
Ted is correct about not clogging up Israpundit with theology.
But the main reason I never argue the relative merits of this or that religious faith is multifold.
First, I think that religion in general is culturally derived and oriented. Different strokes for different nations, you could say. In other words, Arabs, Iranians, Chinese, Japanese, Swedes, North Americans, Central Africans and others all are steered by beliefs that have arisen through scores of thousands of years of human development.
Second, I identify with our Jewish nation as a nationalist. I work at doing nothing contrary to the tenets of the Jewish religion. And none of the Jesus folks ever have come up with what I would consider a credible argument that a dead man can rise from his grave.
Third, my main concern is not belief, but conceptualization for growing a larger, much more populous, much stronger, much more independent Jewish state. But what else could you expect from a trained and experienced city and regional planner? No one person is will be able to accomplish all that. So I think the m’shiach of the Jewish nation will prove to be some sort of permanent committee backed by some bright men and women and able to mobilize the armed hosts of Israel as needed. I’m really talking here about a Jewish nationalist government. I probably will not live long enough to witness such a government in action. But hope springs eternal in the Jewish breast.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Christian theology is really stupid:
1. The christian god created man in a state of childish innocence, lacking the ability to distinguish right from wrong.
2. The all-knowing christian god immediately tricked the first man into disobeying him.
3. He then punished, not only the first man, but all his descendants forever after him, with “original sin”, for which all men would burn in hell forever.
4. Later, he gave the Jews the Torah, and told them it was “the laws of life”. But this was another trick, since the christian god knew that anyone who followed the Torah would actually burn in hell forever.
5. Then, the christian god had sex (“begat”) with the Jewish virgin Mary, and gave birth to himself in the form of a human man-god.
6. Then, he turned his man-god-self into a human sacrifice, and declared that unless you believe this, and demonstrate your belief by eating the man-god’s body and drinking his blood, you will burn in hell forever.
I can see how we Jews find all this silly, but how can anyone at all believe it? (And you know, the christian “god of love” sure seems to like to burn a lot of good people in hell forever.)
CuriousAmerican Said:
Pure Gibberish!!!!
The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”
Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”
Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
For Yamit
Ten Reasons why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to Israel
http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm
Check it yourself. Ted does not want us clogging up his board with theology, but since you started this debate by disparaging Yeshua/Yehoshua – May His Name Live Forever – above, I will give you a link to educate you.
Because I respect Ted, I will not post the whole article. You have the link.
Early Christians knew of the Second Coming. It is in the book of Acts , before Paul.
Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Long before Paul. Know what you are talking about.
CuriousAmerican Said:
So will my Grandmother. Funny the early christians never heard of 2nd coming nor first coming either……
Told ya before that the suffering servant is Israel and most honest christians concur. There is no yeshu in Jewish scriptures.
Jesus H christ!!!!, How many times do we have to drill it into thick skulls of the brain dead?
Who is is speaking beginning Last 3 verses of Isaiah 52-53: 1-15 Who is speaking?????????? 🙂
honeybee Said:
Jews are perfectly capable of multitasking we should do both. Ignorance can be cured but it’s along process and the damage christians can do and will do is too deleterious to not be defended against with all of our power and capabilities. One of the advantages of having a sovereign Jewish nation where we are the majority is we get to make the rules, create and delineate what are the acceptable boundaries of social and political intercourse and exchange.
If You Were Born a Jew
You’re descended from a long line of idealistic heroes and heroines.
Every Jew alive today unless they are converts or the progeny of converts- According to historian Irving A. Agus, “the ancestors of all Ashkenazi Jews number somewhere between 5,000 to at most 10,000 Jews who lived in Italy, Germany, and France at the end of the 8th century. By the end of the 11th century, the Jewish community of the Rhineland was thriving, with distinguished yeshivas and brilliant rabbis. Then in 1096, the First Crusade, marching from Germany on its way to liberate the Holy Land, passed through the Rhineland. In less than a month, the Crusaders brutally massacred thousands of Jewish men, women, and children.”
The Crusaders offered their Jewish victims the chance to escape through baptism. (Until the Nazis, Jews could almost always escape persecution and death by consenting to convert to Christianity.) According to historian Rabbi Berel Wein:
The Jewish reaction to this destruction was flight, monetary payments for protection and preparedness for martyrdom. There are many recorded incidents of suicides and mercy killings of children and relatives performed in order to spare them the pain of torture and the heresy of forced conversion. With almost no exception, the victims of the Crusade would not resort even to pro-forma conversion. To the masses of the Ashkenazim, conversion was traitorous, unforgivable and always anathema. [Herald of Destiny, pp. 145-6]
That the entire spectrum of Jews — from the learned and the saintly to the unlearned and the ordinary — chose spiritual fidelity over physical survival, chose a heroic death over a compromised life, is a historical fact of awesome proportions.
The history of Ashkenazi Jewry is a history of banishments (from virtually every country in Europe), discrimination, persecution, humiliation, and massacre. If you were born an Ashkenazi Jew, you are descended from those heroes and heroines whose commitment to their faith was utterly unbreakable. READ FULL ESSAY
He comes twice, first as the suffering servant of Isaiah 53.
I know you don’t believe it. One day, you will.
Si, tú hables como una puta, tal vez tú eres.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKp9h1JAzWw
yamit82 Said:
Carefull, you don’t to get stung,Darlin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
honeybee Said:
La mujer de mis sueños. 😉
yamit82 Said:
I would not ban speech,I would incress a strong Jewish religious education. “Place truth in the ears of children.and truth will flow from their mouths.” @1st Deborah!!!!!!!!
This is still the dominant theology of most Protestant denominations and especially amongst the fundamentalists.
CuriousAmerican Said:
How many times Has the term THE “Mashiach”, ” (The Messiah)appears in the Tanach? Ans. Zero!!!! How many times is messiah mentioned in the NT? ans. 45 but there are other terms are used for messiah in the NT. Yeshu is mentioned some 1200 times. Seems to me the christians are totally obsessed with Dionysian savior cult beliefs and Mithranic dualism. All very unJewish.
One might agree with Jewish Rabbis or not but I would not consider them stupid especially when it relates to Judaism and Jewish texts and concepts. They unlike you Understood what the King Messiah was supposed to accomplish and yeshu accomplished not a single one of what was understood he was to accomplish:
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.
Christians counter that Yeshu will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists. Hmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!! 😛
CuriousAmerican Said:
When I dream ,I dream of that fire breathing, BLACK DOG Yamit82.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Chiquito, have you ever got a stick up your pendejo!!!!!!!!!!
“Right” is the correct word. Nothing grammatically wrong about it. It implies both propriety of answer, and moral righteousness.
En su sueños, mujer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MY7tBjMWOc
I disagree. The American Jewish support for other Jews can be measured against their lack of support for the Jews of Europe 1938-1945 and their general lack of support for the creation of the State of Israel. In fact most Jews always opposed a Jewish State. I prefer to reject any support that carries a price tag. Israeli decision making is totally different between when Israeli leaders rely and feel dependent on outside support against when we have no expectations of help or support. Before 1967 Israel had no superpower support and did not count on anyone but ourselves and we know the results. It’s been down hill ever since we accepted American help and attached ourselves to American dictates and whims.
Jews have proven we can’t discern the difference. Those Jews who still care about Israel feel so insecure and so threatened that they are willing to sell their souls and the lives of other Jews, for a kind word or gesture. Taking money from such groups is selling reason and principle to the dogs because a price is demanded and given and it’s transference dependency from one source to another. Evangelicals have learned to be duplicitous by telling the Jews what they want to hear much like the Muslims. The truth can be found when dialogues between Christians come to light mapping out their real agendas and motivations.
Hausman is a fool.
Tell us Hausman how you are able to discern one from another? what’s your test? They do lie when it serves their nefarious purposes.
Bar/ban All missionaries and their TV programing from Israel with very stiff penalties enforced and watch the fun of seeing your house of cards fantasy’s crumble. You will then see the true face of friendly Evangelical Christians. Maybe some should tell Housman what the term Evangelical means. “Of or relating to the group that stresses personal conversion and salvation by faith.
Characterized by ardent or crusading enthusiasm; zealous:”
Christian Zionists who seek to de-Judaize Israel
I think Hausman and those like him are more dangerous or detrimental to the Jewish cause and Israel’s survival than apathetic and even anti-Israel Jews.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Hey Curious, we are not as stupid as you may think. With all the claims out there, do you not think that there are Jews who have tried to substaniate your claims? After all, it is one of our kin that you are claiming was The Christ. I too, have studied and would have been willing to accept that our ancestors made a grevious error that we must right – however, the facts do not support it, so we must be vigilant in supporting the truth. Your theology comes from Paul, the zealot, creator of Christianity – a very different personality type and theological type than the man Jesus – also referred to as Joshua by some. His religion was Judaism and remained Judaism until the end. He was no more diety than Adam, Eve or Moses (just to name a few) – who obviously had some ‘supernatural experiences’. Just try to agree to disagree and be warned what your bible says about judgement to the church.
Yidvocate Said:
Darlin, nobody want an old, sick horse even if its free.
CuriousAmerican Said:
UNLESS maybe we Christian are CORRECT, English grammer pleaseeeee,Chiquito!!!!!!! No sabe nada.
That would be the Jewish point of view UNLESS maybe we Christians are right, and the rabbis erred in rejecting Christ …. Hmmm!
Documentary deals with the hatred of Jews …. First deals with Christianity and ends with Islamic antisemitism.
The Longest Hatred
Questioning any “friend” of Israel in this day and age is looking a gift horse in the mouth!
@ ArnoldHarris:
Amen
Not a few Jews support Israel for the right reason, and other Jews for what you would say are the wrong reasons. So these things even out.
But I have learned over a long lifetime to accept support such as is offered and in accordance with one’s needs on that particular occasion.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI