If Netanyahu becomes Israel’s next PM, the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict could be realized via peace with the Saudis..Op-ed.
Dry Bones – Bibi considers the new Saudi PlanY. Kirschen
Israel’s Leader of the Opposition Benjamin Netanyahu has broken his silence – giving his nod of approval to examining the Saudi-proposed Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine solution (Saudi Solution) :
“I think the big prize is peace with Saudi Arabia, which I intend to achieve if I go back into office… The rise of Israeli power facilitated the Abraham Accords, and the continual nurturing of Israeli power will also nurture a broader peace with Saudi Arabia and nearly all of the rest of the Arab world. I intend to bring the Arab-Israeli conflict to a close.”
Peace with Saudi Arabia and ending the Arab-Israeli conflict will require Netanyahu to successfully negotiate to make the Saudi Solution – published in June – acceptable. That would see:
· Jordan, Gaza and part of Judea and Samaria (‘West Bank’) being merged into one territorial entity to be called The Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine – with its capital in Amman – not Jerusalem
· Abandonment of the 74 years-old Palestinian Arab demand to return and live in Israel
· Recognition of Jewish sovereignty in part of Judea and Samaria (‘West Bank’) for the first time in 3000 years
· No new Palestinian Arab state between Israel and Jordan
Yesh Atid Party Leader – Yair Lapid, Blue and White Party Leader – Benny Gantz – and Labor Party Leader – Merav Michaeli – have all rejected the Saudi Solution outright – aligning their respective parties policies with President Biden’s to continue pursuing the failed unachievable two-state solution first dreamt up by the European Union in 1980 and endorsed by the United Nations in 2003.
The leaders of all other Israeli political parties have yet to comment on the Saudi Solution.
Netanyahu, however, indicated his thinking was clearly in sync with the game-changing proposals.
On the touchy question of Israeli sovereignty in part only of Judea and Samaria (‘West Bank’) – Netanyahu said:
“The reality is that a third, which includes biblical sites, strategic sites, and Jewish suburbs of our major cities, they’re going to stay in Israel no matter what. We’d like more—possibly everything—but that’s not the point. The point is everybody recognized this part will stay, so why not recognize it the way Trump recognized Jerusalem as our capital? And it’s been that way for 3,000 years since King David; so why not recognize this reality too?”
On the sensitive issue of Jerusalem remaining solely the capital of Israel – Netanyahu declared:
“As long as [the Palestinian Arabs] cling to the unrealistic assumption that we’re going to dismantle half of Jerusalem and dismantle these suburbs, you ain’t gonna get peace. You’re going to get nothing. You cannot build peace in the Middle East on fantasy. Any peace built on lies and fantasy will founder on the rocks of Middle Eastern realities.
It’s about time to recognize what is going to be. What is [currently] there, and what is going to be.”
The new Saudi Solution maintains the current reality of Jerusalem remaining the capital of Israel only. Possibly Hamas and the PLO realize that – as their four-months self-imposed silence in failing to oppose or reject the new Saudi Solution may restify.
The main remaining issue to be negotiated is security control over the newly merged entity – where Netanyahu told Ben Shapiro in an earlier interview:
“…West of the Jordan River … Israel and Israel alone controls security. We control the airspace, we control the ground security, underground security in case they want to do tunnels… We’re not going to commit suicide for a favourable op-ed in theNew York Times”
If Netanyahu becomes Israel’s next Prime Minister – the end of the 100 years old Arab-Israeli conflict and peace with Saudi Arabia could well be realised.
Author’s note: The cartoon — commissioned exclusively for this article — is by Yaakov Kirschen aka “Dry Bones”- one of Israel’s foremost political and social commentators — whose cartoons have graced the columns of Israeli and international media publications for decades.
@David Singer
It means not yet but sometime in the future. As Edgar noted and you seem to prefer to ignore, it means you are querying for answers which if known should not be publicly shared – and I would add that it would only be prudent to not share such details with those who would not support it even if it came about today, such as you have stated was your position and which you have still failed to explain why.
But, what can Israel do to stop the killing in the meantime, while waiting for the messiah in whatever form is the question. The late Stephen Plaut’s system of white and black lists is still the most practical proposal I have seen. But Israelis will have to get over their silly phobia of “ruling over another people.” Just think of it as the “Jewish man’s burden,” close your eyes “and think of England.” 😀
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm-173597-time-annex-judea-and-samaria-steven-plaut/
#Edgar G
After waiting almost 5 years – what does “not too long now” mean?
# Ted
You state:
“You actually believe that the Saudi Plan can be agreed upon through negotiations. Also that we should commit to it because it will save lives.”
Correct.
Redrawing the international border and determining security control of HKoP territory west of the Jordan River are the two main points that have to be agreed on.
If not agreed – there will be no deal.
The Saudi Solution will then follow the way of all solutions before it.
The Mudar solution will still remain untested – a distant dream – left to compete against the UN two-state solution if Mudar ever gets back to Jordan.
You further state:
“I don’t believe a deal can be negotiated anywhere near the Saudi Plan, if at all”
Why not?
Prejudging the outcome of negotiations before they are held is foolish. I think you are scared of negotiations being held precisely because you fear they might succeed – meaning that Israel will not regain sovereignty in all of Judea and Samaria – only part – as the Saudi plan makes clear. I understand how passionately you wish to prevent this happening – but in trying to end this conflict concessions are needed on both sides. The price Israel is being asked to make – ceding part of the territory of Judea and Samaria to the HKoP – is to be compared to the major concessions that have already been offered in the Saudi Plan – sole Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, abandoning the right of return, no new state between Israel and Jordan and the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative being superseded.
Instead of invoking Chamberlain and Churchill – why not speak of Begin and Sadat or Rabin and King Hussein? Peace Treaties negotiated by these two couples have been honoured and stood the test of time – even after their deaths.
@SINGER-
Mudar is a devout Muslim so won’t be riding on a white horse. This is a goyisher piece of crap from Revelations. A one time “white horse guy” was, if I recall my history, Eugene Cavaignac of France.
You are entirely too nosy about what should be a closely held secret.
My comment re US , Israel and UK, was a faint recollection-which could be wrong- but mainly logic and common-sense.
You keep worrying away like a dog with a bone. You should wait for developments, which should not be too long now,
I note that Lempert is “cautious, silent and reserved”….so should we all be, on this particulat subject right now.
@David
Read this first.
https://www.israpundit.org/a-new-american-ambassador-to-jordan-reactions-from-the-king-and-opposition/
Remember I can’t say who or when.
Mudar has just submitted an article to me in which he fully addresses the king’s relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. I sent it to American Thinker for publication on Sunday at which time I will also publish it.
Judging by your remarks, you are a latter day Chamberlain. You actually believe that the Saudi Plan can be agreed upon through negotiations. Also that we should commit to it because it will save lives.
I don’t believe a deal can be negotiated anywhere near the Saudi Plan, if at all. I prefer to follow Churchill rather than Chamberlain.
# Ted
Sounds impressive but it has now been more than 4 years since you started making breathless predictions that it was just around the corner.
https://www.israpundit.org/belman-interviews-zahran-on-the-coming-fall-of-king-abdullah-part-1/
When do you think Mudar will finally be triumphantly riding into Jordan on his white horse to rule in Jordan – with the PLO and Hamas bowing in humble obedience accepting him as the ruler of Jordan in place of the Hashemites?
Not everyone will agree with the Saudi solution. Look at you and your readers – not prepared to give up one inch of Judea and Samaria – to obtain in return sole Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem, abandonment of the right of return, shredding of the two-state solution and a signed peace agreement that supersedes the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. You are entitled to keep fighting and seeing further Jewish and Arab lives lost in the process as you press claims to land over which Israel has not exercised sovereignty for 3000 years. I prefer to accept sovereignty in part of those lands and end the 100 years-old conflict – saving lives in doing so.
What is important is that Bibi Netanyahu, King Abdullah, Mahmoud Abbas, Ismail Haniyeh and Mohammed Bin Salman have not rejected the Saudi plan since its publication in June 2022. Any of them could have scotched the plan on the head by a simple rejection – but they have not done so. Why could that possibly be in your opinion?
Until they do – I will continue to propagate for the implementation of the Saudi solution – the most significant ground making peace proposal to end the 100 years-old Jewish-Arab conflict ever put forward.
It needs just a phone call to get the process started – not regime change.
You dream on about the Mudar solution. I will dream on about the Saudi Solution.
Ne’er the twain shall meet.
@David
I just noticed this
Mudar is not acting alone. You will be surprised how many entities are supporting him.
The MEMRI article linked to by Sebastien just below confirms just how much opposition there is to the “Saudi Plan”. Nobody but you is supporting it.
From June. 2022
@Edgar
Quite true, and more than this, I would suggest that the degree of success in actually achieving peace by any other plan should be gauged by how far distant it might lay from this optimal option, the Jordan Option. Of course, the pursuit of peace was never to be counted among the objectives sought with the Peace Process, but hopefully, we will soon come to see that the Peace Process is dead and gone forever, slain and replaced with the equitable solutions held within the planning and workings of the Jordan Option.
@Sabastien
Ever wonder what the origin of “There is no diplomatic solution.” was?
I used to exchange ideas with a guy who kept saying that there was no military solution. My response was to correct him and say “There is no diplomatic solution. I believe it.
@Ted
I just came up with that. Do you like it? Feel free to use it. 😀
But, yes, I agree, the Trump plan as Bibi and Ambassador Friedman were given to understand it was better but after Bibi tried to apply sovereignty over the 30 percent and the Trump administration lied and said he had never been given a green light, it’s clear it was some kind of trap whether by accident or design. Israel must act unilaterally and blow off detractors or nothing will happen. Ben Gurion understood that.
TED and PELONI-
Thank you both for the compliment.
Also,. From the very beginning I was convinced that the Jordan Option was the very best solution ever proposed, and could not be bettered. Its scope and foresight is massive, and deals with all aspects of the issue, showing how tremendous the amount of brilliant thinking it contained. Once in motion, it would be self-contributing. I
t doesn’t take more than average intelligence to see this.
Just one small example,….. describing in detail the various pre-fab housing units available and the total costs including services in Egypt, Jordan, and perhaps, one other that I can’t recall.
Also that Arab terrorists, especially generational, would be like Mafia Families, always “in the business” somehow no matter how they would seem to be to “outsiders”.
Just a detail, A mere bagatelle in the grand scheme of things, I know; but, still, it’s good to dot every i and cross every t when one comes to it, now and then, If only for the exercise. It’s a relief nothing has to be done with the p’s since they don’t exist in Arabic, Aspic, maybe. I dunno, I don’t have a laboratory. 😀
@Peloni, cc Ted
In a number of places, to the best of my recollection, Ted said that since the Jordanian military is under the control of the US, all it requires is for the American President to tell the kinglet not to come home from abroad where he spends most of the year, anyway and to instruct the Jordanian military to install Mudhar Zahran. That’s one of the things that made it practical and also answers David Singer’s concerns about the country being torn apart in a civil war.
Now, the only eeny weeny, itsy bitsy problem left is persuading a US president.
@Peloni @Edgar
You get it. Thank you.
Its good to know that others see it as I do.
@David
The reason I prefer the Trump plan is that the 70% which is in limbo, no longer is in limbo after 4 years. The PA will resist for the four years and will not comply. Israel will then be free to do what it wants theoretically. Of course with diplomatic push back.
You are the only person pushing the “Saudi Plan”. You are too caught up in it. The “Saudi Plan” has become your plan. Nobody else’s.
I am not sure peace with Egypt was worth it. Israel gave up a great deal of land and resources and destroyed Yamit. Egypt was no longer a threat. Besides with Israel on the eastern border of the Suez Cannel, Egypt would have been even less of a threat. As it turned our making peace with Egypt did not break the mold resulting in many more Muslim countries making peace with Israel. That was 40 years ago. Besides, it was and is a cold peace and we are called upon to defeat ISIS in the Sinai anyway. In any event, its value is debatable.
A peace agreement with Jordan was of no value. Even without a peace agreement, Jordan would have cooperated with Israel because it was in their interest. And we would have sole control of the Temple Mount.
@Sebastien
You make an important point here, but I would suggest that the Jordan Option is quite unique among the various peace initiatives over the years, in that it creates peace, not thru counterproductive negotiations, not thru land partitions, nor by forced evacuations, but by establishing the workings of stability and prosperity from which peaceful cooperation and development of interdependent economies might emerge. In fact, in the JO, peace would be the dividend of stabilizing Jordan and making it a free and profitable society which could sustain the Jordanian people and draw the Jordanian Pals to join them. It is an ingenious floor plan which does not require intense US mediation, nor popular Pal support. It only requires a visionary leader in Jordan with an aptitude for seeking to lead his nation in such a manner that his people might flourish, and thus focus their attentions upon less violent vocations than hacking their Jewish neighbors to death – and this becomes all the more likely to be prevented if the subsidies bestowed upon the Pals were to be transferred from being distributed in the PA territories in Israel to being parried out in some new locality in Jordan. So the US can have their way in manipulating Israel and the Pals towards greater and greater tension while conducting negotiations of this plan or that plan, but with the JO, the conditions of peace and the implementation of prosperity in Jordan would replace the high stakes gambles and the difficult demands made by the US peace processors, and thus eliminate any need of significant mediation by the peace envoys – whose only success has been in renewing the tensions which perpetuate the cycle of endless violence. We don’t need such useless negotiations, only honest men interested in honestly seeking peace, not thru land transfers, but thru the networking the self interests of the relative parties towards an interdependence upon eachother while isolating the violent elements away from their intended targets.
@Edgar
Very well explained!
Ted, Why don’t you write De Santis and ask him what he thinks of the Jordan Option.
liked. But, perhaps that was a Freudian typo as my edit window clock ran out. Do we have a desperate need to be lied to, and how many of us want to be fooled and how often fall along the lines of Lincoln’s famous quip?
“Undoubtedly the most famous utterance ever attributed to Lincoln is, “You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” Early recollections place the saying in an 1858 speech Lincoln delivered in Clinton, Illinois. The first appeared in 1904 by E. E. Pierson, who remembered Lewis Campbell, a respected citizen of DeWitt County, telling him of the 1858 speeches that Lincoln and Douglas delivered in Clinton. According to Campbell, Lincoln said, “Judge Douglas cannot fool the people: you may fool people for a time; you can fool a part of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all the people all the time.”
https://abrahamlincolnassociation.org/you-can-fool-all-of-the-people-lincoln-never-said-that/
All of this sounds like wishful thinking to me. I don’t believe any of these plans will be implemented any time soon if at all, though the Jordan Option would alleviate the problem if there were an American President who would support it which there hasn’t been so far.
And the Yesha and Gaza terrorists will never give up their power and no one will fight Israel’s battles for her.
Sovereignty must he unilaterally applied in stages. Israel must weather-proof herself against possible sanctions like Russia. Only hudnas and alliances of expediency are possible in the near future. Permanent peace is just a distant dream that may never happen, and perhaps a fantasy. It’s never happened before, I hope you realize. But the Arabs need Israel more than Israel needs them. We just have to get over our desperate need to be lied
Re my post just below. I meant to include that no one has yet considered that Netanyahu did not even consider the Saudi peace plan in his announcement, but was thinking of diplomatic wheeling and dealing with MBS showing how it would bring mutual benefit to both nations as well as the whole area.
No doubt it might be brought up, but not as a serious proposition entailing Israel cutting a hefty chunk of property off it’s already much diminished land area. I don’t see that happening even for the most advantageous treaty in history.
@SINGER_
Just one little thing…you are comparing apples with oranges. Whilst both are fruit that grow on a tree, how can you equate the Peace with Jordan (because of repeated defeats and lack of strength) and Egypt, (because also military defeats, joint Sinai interests, and a more pragmatic, secular ruler in El-Sisi) with a rag-tag group of terrorists who happen to be in YESHA and are sworn blood enemies to whom NO treaty means even as much as the piece of paper is worth.
Even assuming (hypothetically) that they “really” would negotiate a treaty, they have no idea how to govern or organise any kind of viable state (especially in a demilitarised, landlocked, economically basket-case, with no natural resources) It would be chaos (anarchy) with little power areas carved out.
The PA is fragmented into several rival terrorist groups who’d be struggling for hegemony as soon as Abbas is gone. The towns is YESHA would also be under attack and infiltration-in their spare time..
The IDF would have to move in and take over, as they should have done after 1967-.when they were the world’s darling.
More unstable than a quicksand.
#Ted
Can’t believe you wrote this:
What if they do call your bluff and one or other agrees to negotiate on the Trump Plan?
You prefer to negotiate on creating an independent Palestinian Arab State between Israel and Jordan governed by the PLO and/or Hamas – which the Trump Plan proposes – as against one single territorial entity governed by the Hashemites – which the Saudi Plan proposes?
You prefer to negotiate on handing over existing parts of sovereign Israel to the PLO and/or Hamas as the Trump Plan calls for – which the Saudi Plan does not?
You prefer to negotiate on allocating sovereignty in possibly 70% of Judea and Samaria to the PLO/Hamas but not on allocating sovereignty in the same area to Jordan under the Saudi Plan?
You prefer to negotiate on the Trump plan which envisages a Palestinian capital in “eastern Jerusalem,” on the outer edges of the city beyond Israel’s security barrier – whilst the Saudi Plan does not?
We are not playing poker here. We are playing with lives.
I am flabbergasted by your approach.
Then you state:
Do you not see the benefits of diplomatic solutions achieved with Egypt and Jordan?
How can you say any negotiations will lead to nowhere – after peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan were successfully concluded in 1979 and 1994?
Unilateral action involving regime change in Jordan – as you are propagating – will not end the 100 years old conflict – merely ensure its continuation.
Unilateral action involving Israel annexing parts of Judea and Samaria will also ensure the continuation of the conflict. Dividing sovereignty in Judea and Samaria in negotiations conducted and successfully concluded under the Saudi Plan -giving Israel recognised sovereignty in agreed areas of Judea and Samaria for the first time in 3000 years – will not.
Ted:
The Saudi Solution offers the possibility of an end to the conflict if successful negotiations to implement it can be concluded.
The Saudi Plan is both ground breaking and revolutionary in its proposals – like no other plan preceding it.
For Netanyahu to refuse to negotiate on implementing the Saudi Plan would not be in Israel’s national interest.
For you to advocate against such negotiations being undertaken is not in Israel’s national interest.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/best-of-british-luck
@Peloni
Man walks into a bar, “Somebody buy me a drink. I’m the man who cut down the Sahara Forest.”
“You mean, the Sahara Desert.”
“Now, it’s a desert!”. 😀
@David Singer
Please explain something if you would.
In response to Ted asking if you would support the JO, you are distinctly spartan in your response, whereas Ted has been quite elaborative in his response to your own questioning in regards to this Saudi plan. Your response to Ted’s inquiry is as follows:
So you refuse to support the JO should Mudar become leader of Jordan, but fail to add one word in explanation as to why you would refuse to do so. Recall that failing to support the JO after the vital step of Mudar’s success in evicting the Hashemites would be refusing to grow a peaceful cooperation between the nations of Jordan and Israel, a cooperation which would result in many significant benefits to both Israel, Jordan and the Pals, among which would include the voluntary movement of a significant number of Pals to Jordan, an end to their stateless status, and the elimination of the practice of radicalization among the Jordanians and Pals, just to name a few. These gains would come without the pricetag of ceding one square foot of Yesha to Jordan. Furthermore, among the many benefits you would abandon would result in the creation of mutual benefits to both nations far in excess but inclusive of your entire list of concessions 1-6, which you find as being worth the price of paying the false Hashemites with a legitimate claim to, if not the possession of, additional Jewish lands in Yesha.
Here are the concessions you list from the Saudi plan which would all come with the JO:
So, if these concessions alone are enough to entice you to allow Jordan, led by the false Hashemites, into gaining claims on the West side of the Jordan River, why would you refuse to support the JO once Mudar comes to power when the JO would result in all of these 6 concessions and more while not involving the loss of any portion of our heartlands? This demonstrates a very inconsistent attitude on your part as to what would draw your support while pursuing peace, and consequently, raises the very curious question of how you might possibly defend the contradictory position of supporting the Saudi plan under Abdullah while opposing the JO under Mudar.
So, please do elaborate as what might be the basis of what does seem to be a point of obstinance on your part – forgive me but it does appear as such – with regards to your recalcitrance to support the JO should Mudar succeed in his efforts to come to rule Jordan in place of the Hashemites. I believe that it is a fair question, one which you have specifically and curiously failed to explain in any of your many statements here.
https://jordantimes.com/news/local/safadi-conveys-kings-message-abbas
June 1, 2022. (The Al Shahabi article was published 6 days later.)
Passages that jumped out at me from attached article dated Sept., 2021.
https://www.memri.org/reports/angry-responses-social-media-and-arab-press-article-saudi-journalist-ali-al-shihabi-calling
@David
You misunderstood me. There are two issues. What land to give away and to whom?
I am fully aware of why you attributed it to Saudi Arabia but until Saudi Arabia embraces it publically, it is not their plan..
I am totally against negotiating on this plan. I would rather implement Trumps plan and see if the Pals negotiate ( I doubt it) and see if Saudi Arabia weighs in. ( I doubt it.)
Trump’s Plan is far superior for us. It doesn’t involve Jordan or Saudi Arabia. It is not for Bibi to embrace the “Saudi Plan”. Bibi is focused only on getting the Saudi Arabia to join the Abraham Accords. If the Saudis insist on acceptance of the “Saudi Plan” first, I think it should be rejected.
Their plan is bad for the PA and bad for Israel. I do not believe in a diplomatic solution. Negotiations will lead no where. I believe in unilateral acton which the JO offers.
#Ted:
You state of the Saudi Solution:
No official backing?
The “Saudi journalist” is a close confidant of Crown Prince and Prime Minister Mohammed Bin Salman and a member of his Neom Advisory Board – also a staunch defender of Bin Salman. The Plan was published in the Government-controlled Al Arabiya News and supersedes official Saudi Policy presently embodied in the Saudi 2002 Peace Initiative as adopted by the Arab League in Beirut in March 2002. Bin Salman has not publicly disassociated or sought to distance himself from the Plan since its release in June.
What has to now happen for the Solution to progress is for Netanyahu to express his willingness to enter into negotiations to see if the Saudi Plan actually can be implemented. From my perspective there are two major conditions that have to be resolved – 1. the new border and 2. security control (including demilitarisation) of the territory of the new entity located West of the Jordan River.
The PA has not rejected the Proposal since its publication. Contrast this to what happened with Trump’s 2020 proposal. The PA rejected it before the terms were even published. No doubt the PA and even Hamas may have to approve the final negotiated proposals but their non-rejection of the Plan at this stage is an encouraging indication that they might just do so. If not – the Saudi Plan will end up like every other plan produced before it.
@Sebastien
Great find. That FP article says what I have been saying. Jordan doesn’t want the problem.
That’s the Jordan Option save for the fact that Israel will not force the Pals to flee but will induce them to emigrate.
“Why Jordan Will Not Reannex the West Bank
An FP essay provoked a strong response because it brought international attention to a controversial issue that has historically only been debated internally.
“…Ismaik’s proposal faced a mostly negative backlash, because it is a radical proposition and does not enjoy broad support among the three target constituencies: Jordanians, Palestinians, and Israelis…
‘Jordanians view the absence of progress on the Palestinian issue as a threat to their national security. Without serious momentum toward the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, Jordanians fear that Israel may annex the West Bank and permanently prevent a two-state solution, force Palestinians in the West Bank to flee to the East Bank, and convince the international community that Jordan be recognized as the homeland for the Palestinians and the legitimate Palestinian state. That explains why, from time to time, some Jordanians—including prominent officials—have floated plans about a renewed role in the West Bank….”
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/10/palestine-jordan-will-not-reannex-the-west-bank/
@David Singer
I can’t comment on who will help Mudar come to power. But let’s say all hope of that happening is dashed then what will I do.
Presently the Plan has no official backing. It is just a plan put forward by a Saudi journalist. A trial balloon, perhaps.
I expect that either Israel or the PA or Jordan has to make an offer.. I don’t see that happening. No one wants to offer their final position. The PA must be the first to agree to a settlement like the Saudi Plan. This won’t happen. So I can imagine how it would get off the ground.
But let’s say an agreement along those lines makes progress, there are two issues.
First, what lands will be ceded to the Palestinians for their state which I should remind you will not be a full fledged state. It will be limited in many ways. I would cede A and B and Gaza. nothing else. But even if is a limited state, how would we prevent the Pales from sending rockets or artillery shells into Israel a mere 10 miles away. The same issue came up in the disengagement discussions and we were assured that Israel would destroy Gazans if there shot at us. We are not buying that assurance again.
The second issue is why make these lands Jordan sovereign territory. I don’t see how Israel would benefit from having Jordan annex these lands.
The issue is not whether anybody that counted has nixed the plan but whether anyone of the players has embraced the plan.
So the way I see it, it is a bigger fantasy than you say the JO is.
First negotiations must commence again. I don’t see this happening either
Rabbi to Christian priest or minister: “Look, let’s not quarrel about whether when the Messiah comes, it will be the first or the second coming.
‘Tell you what. When he comes, we’ll ask him, “have you been here before?” 😀
@ SINGER-
As stated, the discussion is ended. You are clutching at straws, demanding the answers to multiple “what ifs”. I say “Que sera sera”
You place far too much reliance on whether Abdullah approves or doesn’t want it. Naturally he doesn’t want it, but the Jordan Option takes it completely from his shaky hands.
As for support-likely implicit- from the West, I seem to recall seeing this would be present. Weapons and military materiel would be needed in a worst case, and as a precautionary measure. Where else would they come from, since the US is very much present in Jordan, and Israel is within spitting distance. Nothing can be done without their acquiescence.
Mudar will move only when all the skittles are lined up. To delve into the hows and where froms, would be going into territory which is still secret, and we have no righ , on a public site to demand the inner workings of a plan which has taken many years to come to fruition. It would be madness to disclose the inner workings.
You are asking for public disclosure. I also would like to know but am more discreet than to ask. I think we’ve heard even a little more than we should have . It is no small thing to overthrow a dynasty and replace it with a fully functioning , “ready to go” government.
So don’t keep demanding to know what you shouldn’t. Ted says “enough”, and I agree. Not hard to understand why.
Israel is not going to hand over any territory to another \nation, however friendly. The River is our boundary and will remain so in perpetuity.
#Sebastian
What Abdullah said in July 2021 has not been repeated by him since the release of the Saudi Solution in June 2022. Until he does – implementation of the Saudi Plan remains on the table to end the Jewish-Arab conflict. Let him reject the Saudi Solution and it will be dead in the water – unless he can be pressed to reconsider his rejection.
Incidentally – Abbas and Haniyeh have also not rejected the Saudi Solution. Neither has Netanyahu.
Isn’t this whole conversation moot since the Jordanian King doesn’t want it? His clearly stated position is TSS or bust!
“Jordan can’t be Palestinian homeland in two-state solution – King Abdullah”
By TOVAH LAZAROFF Published: JULY 26, 2021 19:57
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/jordan-cant-be-palestinian-homeland-in-two-state-solution-king-abdullah-674941
Ted:
Not sure why you had any doubt about my views on not supporting any Mudar takeover of Jordan. Overthrowing the Hashemite regime and inciting violence to achieve that aim is not the way to end the Jewish-Arab conflict.
Please answer this question
#Edgar
You state:
Care to provide some examples?
You further state:
This is indeed a real revelation.
Ted – Is Edgar right?
#Edgar
Care to substantiate your comment with examples?
AND…a huge item, I believe that Mudar is expecting the support of the US, the UK and Israel. Much will be pre-arranged and he won’t be jumping into a vacuum. So the opposition of Hamas and the PA will be handled.
@David Singer
So you adamantly won’t support Mudar if he comes to power.
End of discussion. I detect animosity coming from you.
I thought you had an open mind as to its possibilities. Apparently, I gave you too much credit.
@SINGER-
I just now saw your ignorant and offensive post, and humbly beg to point out that this site is an open one. Members are allowed to post to any other contributor. In YOUR case, your article is replete with nonsense, and your attempts to badger Ted are a complete failure. He knows exactly what he’s talking about and you do not chose to accept it, but continue a useless dispute that shows a disturbing imbalance.
At first I thought it was because you were in your mid 80s and becoming senile, but on checking, I find that you are in your mid 70s -normally too early, I believe. Normally………
SINGER once again is pretending to be as dense as an old time London fog. His posts are replete with “if this” and “if that”. Again, demanding to know the future. He seems not aware that citizens of one country can live in another country as legal residents. Ted pointed this out. I pointed this out.. His argument is going nowhere.
AND…a huge item, I believe that Mudar is expecting the support of the US, the UK and Israel. Much will be pre-arranged and he won’t be jumping into a vacuum. So the opposition of Hamas and the PA will be handled. Of course there will be terrorism, because the PA has raised generations on it, I feel that Mudar wiil have NO hesitation in stamping it out ruthlessly., ….unlike Israel who have goyisher opposition all the time. .
When Hussein, after many disturbing incidents, attacked and killed thousands of PLO who tried to take over Jordan, there were no calls from the West for him to desist. It was an internal affair and he was militarily supplied by the U.K. It was sometime in the early 1970s I believe.
{By now they’d have been long forgotten if not for Peres, Beilin, -and Rabin}.
I think it must have continued for several months. Hussein certainly whittled them down., He signed an agreement with Arafat, under pressure from other Arab countries. They had to leave Jordan, and I think they ended up in Lebanon, still causing trouble for everyone.
Some may recall the Group of assassins called Black September which grew out of that turmoil.
{I myself am an Irish citizen, legally residing in Canada. I cannot vote in Federal elections but I don’t want to anyway. My children, born in Israel, have become Canadian citizens}.
Why is this so difficult to understand, unless understanding is not the point. Prolonged irrelevant argument is.
#Ted
Sorry Ted – but you said:
How is he going to unify them without redrawing the border if say two million don’t want to move from the West Bank no matter what financial incentives they are offered?
Now you state:
My idea is possible and is part of the Saudi Solution – and incidentally may not involve all 3.5 million Arab residents when negotiations are concluded. Your idea is pie in the sky.
No.
Best of British if Mudar becomes Leader – which will not be by a peaceful transition of power. PLO and Hamas might also have something to say about Mudar’s power grab as well as Moslem Brotherhood and PFLP.
Hopefully Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine will be a fait accompli before Mudar moves to rip Jordan apart.
Would you support the Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine if the Saudi Solution was successfully implemented with Israel’s agreement?
@David Singer
The sovereignty of Yesha needs to remain with Israel, not to be bartered off to the Hashemites as a pretense to pay this false ally for the mischief and murder he supports against our people. As you have correctly described below, Abdullah is no friend to Israel as he wields his terrorist forces against us, which is why Ted correctly noted Abdullah is clearly our enemy. Consequently, there should be no misconceptions bandied about that Abdullah has the makings of a good or even a fair peace partner as his terrorist minions are sent against us with one hand and he asks us for more of our lands with the other. Even if this false friend were less false and more a friend, though, it would still remain to be an additional folly to layer upon the betrayal by Churchill (see Edgar’s remarks below) and pretend that any threat or act of violence would countenance the voluntary retreat of Israel’s boundary from where it stands today.
Mudar will dropkick Abdullah from his throne and return Jordanian citizenship to the Pals which was stolen from them, and incentivize them to move to a land where they will find peace, prosperity and future prospects for their families with a govt which can actually provide such things for the people who are now only victims of the tyrant ruling over them. The vile UNWRA will be eliminated and Israeli law will be extended to all of Yesha, save those areas where the Pals have been given authority to govern themselves, where the unlucky Jordanians will be able to administer the Pals living there. Israel and Jordan will establish trade, travel and peace in close coordination, one reinforcing the other two and vice a versa – the resulting inter-dependency of the two nations will generate a warm peace and a new addition to the Abraham Accords. Those Jordanian Pals who wish to remain in their current squalor, living in a war zone, should be allowed to do so under their own abilities without state subsidies for welfare, education or healthcare, and the rest will follow the state subsidies to their new source in Jordan. This is how Mudar is going to unify the Palestinians on both sides of the river into one nation, and that nation is in Jordan on the East bank of the River which divides the Jewish Homeland from the Arab Palestinian state.