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My friend Yishai Fleisher on March 30 faced off against a radical-left J Street representative at Temple Emanuel of Beverly Hills, and successfully defended Israel at a debate in Temple Emanuel of Beverly Hills.

April 10, 2017 | Comments Off on You don't want to miss this | 74 views

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  1. I admire Yishai’s patience. I like his radio show on Arutz Sheva radio. It would have been good if he had explained about the bogus Pal property claims being upheld by the Israeli courts leading to the regulation law and that it entailed compensation for land built on in good faith and dated from the illegal Jordanian occupation instead of just exploding, “you hear that blood libel, he says Israel steals land.” But, I would have exploded from the first minute.

    The J street guy said he served in Lebanon and watched Hamas fill the vaccuum when Israel forced the PLO to Tunis. But, Hamas wasn’t founded until 1987. While the final withdrawal wasn’t until 2000, the PLO was forced out in 1982. Did he mean Hizbollah? Also, he’s too old to have been fighting in 2000. Why does he keep talking about the prophets and saying that Israel was so supposed to tolerate enemies in the land. Are we talking about the same Torah, i.e., Numbers 33 and the last 4 of the 613 Mitzvoh, not to mention the finish to the story of Purim?
    Is this guy a liar or just really, really confused?

    This guy’s actually in Israel. I argued with Orthodox two staters at a seder in NY, and one of them stopped his pontificating for a moment to ask me what Area C was.

  2. Lamentably, in discussing possible alternatives to the two-state formula Yishai Fleisher, the designated right-wing protagonist in the debate, characterized the proposal to fund large scale emigration of the Palestinian-Arabs in Judea-Samaria (aka “West Bank”), as being possibly “repugnant” (54 min 56.sec)

    Of course, this allegation is entirely unfounded, especially when compared with the two-state option —and it is unfortunate, to say the least, that Fleisher found it appropriate to a describe this alternative HUMANITARIAN PARADIGM in such misleading manner.

    Indeed the question that must be asked is “Who has the moral high-ground?

    (a) The proponents of two-states, who advocate establishing (yet another) homophobic, misogynistic Muslim-majority tyranny, whose hallmarks would be: gender discrimination, gay persecution, religious intolerance, and political oppression of dissidents?

    Or

    (b) those who endorse the HUMANITARIAN PARADIGM and advocate providing non-belligerent Palestinian individuals with the opportunity of building a better life for themselves elsewhere, out of harm’s way, free from the recurring cycles of death, destruction and destitution that have been brought down on them by the cruel corrupt cliques that have led them astray for decades.

    Moreover, it should be asked, why is it morally acceptable to offer financial inducements to Jews in Judea-Samaria to evacuate their homes to FACILITATE the establishment of said homophobic, misogynistic tyranny, which, almost certainly, will become a bastion for Islamist terror; while it is considered morally reprehensible to offer financial inducements to Arabs in Judea-Samaria to evacuate their homes to PREVENT the establishment of such an entity?

    Martin Sherman has discussed the moral merits of the funded emigration option relative to all other major proposals and demonstrates that the HUMANITARIAN PARADIGM , advocating funded emigration for the resolution of the “Palestinian problem”, will be the most humane of all options if it succeeds, and the least inhumane if it does not. see

    “PALESTINE”: WHO HAS MORAL HIGH GROUND?
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/20208

  3. Saad Sad Sad. I agree with Sebastien, and would like to put it more succinctly.

    Whilst the egghead was looking up at the clouds, and moralising from the Prophets, and spewing forth all kinds of feel-goody nonsense, he seemed completely unaware that beneath his line of vision, his kneecaps were being shattered by Arabs wearing steel toed boots.

    I would bet a dollar to a cent that 90% of thr audience had no idea that 100 years ago, Israel was granted by Irrevocable and many times repeated International Law to the Jewish People, and that Jordan, also part of the Jewish Homeland, had been snipped off for the Arabs. I would like that this should have been mentioned at the beginning so that the audience would realise the way the “playing field” is already laid out and marked, and the only problem was how to get rid of the Arabs, mostly squatters from after the 1920s and certainly after the 1946, who came from the surrounding countries..

    I’d also have liked to hear about the fake and forged Arab “ownership” papers, and the Supreme Court deciding that unknown and invisible-often non-existent- Arabs own land they don’t know about, but can claim because Jewish homes built by government permission and aid, were being demolsished for them

    On the lighter side, I thought the accent of the moderator beyond description, and wondered what school and in what area of the country she was from. .

    To conclude, The goody-goody feeling gentleman was given far too much latitude to spout his lies and half truths, without being adequately answered. He was a smmoothie no doubt, and well experienced, but got away with far too much that could be easily shown to be false.

  4. The J-Street Rabbi dismisses our rights to Judea/Samaria as just some other piece of dirt that means little or nothing.

    His goal is the building of a Palestinian State because that he says would solve the conflict. He ignores the fact that goal of all the Palestinian Political/terrorists organizations (PLO, Hamas, etc.) want to destroy Israel. He assumes if Jews give up enough land all will end well. He figures only about 100,000 Jews would need to move for his Palestinian state. The evil Jew need to do this for their own good and his view of morality.

    He ignores the fact that without being determined to win the conflict it will continue. Israel needs a new paradigm to eventually in the long solve the conflict.

    Israel can not rely on this J-Street Rabbis hope and belief in his worldview in solving its problems. In fact Oslo caused the death of 1500 plus Israelis and as Yishai points in leaving Gaza we have had three wars and counting. The Rabbi just ignores this and says Israel is at fault. His condemnation of Israel is basically disgusting and destructive to the well being of Israel.

  5. @ ms:
    @ Bear Klein:
    I agree. One other point. He concurred in denouncing Dr. Baruch Goldstein as a terrorist but the truth is that he prevented another bloody pogrom like 1929. He was a hero. He did not murder innnocents. He acted when the government would not. Even this author says he disagrees with what he did. But consider the alternative:

    “I Was Baruch Goldstein’s Friend
    By David Wilder – 28 Adar I 5774 – February 28, 2014 98”

    He was my friend. He was also a doctor. A very good one. He treated both Arabs and Jews. His trauma treatment was legendary in Israeli medical circles. His on-the-spot diagnoses were, after weeks of hospital tests, found to be 100% on the mark.
    The past week or so has witnessed a spate of “Remembering Baruch Goldstein” articles and videos in the international media. That’s because the past week marked the 20th anniversary of his attack at Ma’arat HaMachpela, the Tomb of the Patriarchs and Matriarchs in Hebron.

    First, to be clear, I do not agree with, or justify what Baruch Goldstein did twenty years ago. I believe I can say, as I have stated many times before, that the Jewish Community of Hebron also rejects such violence and bloodshed as a means to deal with the issues plaguing us. The reason I am so sure is simply because our people do not do it. Our people do not go out and randomly shoot at other people who are not endangering their lives.

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    People here are armed. We are licensed, either by the Ministry of the Interior or by the IDF, to carry small arms and rifles for reasons of self-defense, and self-defense only. Once a pistol or a rifle is in the possession of any given person, they can, theoretically, do with it whatever they want. If a person wants to go outside and start shooting people, there is nothing to stop him. The fact is that Jews don’t randomly attack and shoot people, not in Hebron, and not anywhere else. This is not the way to achieve whatever aims we might have. It is not right legally, morally or ethically. It is wrong.

    As a result there are very few people who have illegitimately used weapons against Arabs for reasons other than self-defense. And those who have are imprisoned for very lengthy periods of time.

    When journalists ask me about our reaction to Baruch Goldstein, after replying, I inquire as to whether they ask my Arab neighbors what they think about Yahya Ayyash. About 99% of them don’t know who I’m talking about. Ayyash was nicknamed ‘the engineer.’ Bombs he assembled killed more than 70 Israelis in numerous terror attacks in the 1990s. He trained his successors to follow in his footsteps after his death at the hands of Israeli intelligence. At his funeral, attended by well over 100,000 people, Arafat called him a saint. (Two days after Goldstein’s attack, Yitzhak Rabin, in the Knesset, said, “I am ashamed to be a Jew.”)

    How many Jews have committed such acts? Five, six, maybe seven. How many Arabs? Between 1989 and 2008, more than 800 Arab suicide-homicide killers have murdered Jews. Who is the only one remembered? Baruch Goldstein.

    I asked former MK Mossi Raz, demonstrating in Hebron this week, if he would also demonstrate to mark the 18th anniversary of Israel’s killing of Ayyash. Of course, the answer was a stark No.

    I knew Goldstein. He was my friend. He was also a doctor. A very good one. He treated both Arabs and Jews. His trauma treatment was legendary in Israeli medical circles. His on-the-spot diagnoses were, after weeks of hospital tests, found to be 100% on the mark.

    He was also the only on-duty doctor in Kiryat Arba, just about 24 hours a day, seven days a week. During the first intifada, following drive-by shootings and terror attacks, he was frequently the first medical person at the scene. As such, he witnessed horrible sights. It is said that he would sleep at night with earphones in his ears, allowing him to hear reports of attacks, without disturbing his wife’s’ sleep.

    Why did he do what he did? This is a question to which, as far as I know, nobody really knows the full answer. To the best of my knowledge, he didn’t leave behind any notes or messages. However, only two months earlier, I was present at the scene of the murder of his close friend, Mordechai Lapid and his son Shalom, just outside the gates of Kiryat Arba. He tried to save Mordechai’s life, in vain.

    I remember the article saying the following not cutting off there. From another site:

    “Were Arabs planning an attack against the Jews?

    A study of the Minutes of the proceedings of the Shamgar Commission (over 2,200 pages in open sessions alone) reveals that intelligence sources had reported on an impending attack by Arabs against Jews in Hebron in the period around Purim. This was not just a stray statement given by one witness, but the clear and unambiguous testimony of no fewer than nine officers in the defense establishment!

    These witnesses were Colonel Moshe Zin, an officer of the Operations Department of the Central Command[122] ; Colonel Amnon Sufrin, an intelligence officer of the Central Command[123] ; Major Dov Stelman, the army Commander of the Cave of Machpelah[124] ; Lieutenant Colonel Ami Burger, an officer of the Operations Department of the Central Command[125] ; Major Dan Reshef, an intelligence officer of the Hebron Brigade[126] ; Colonel Shalom Goldstein, the Military Governor of Hebron[127] ; Lieutenant Ilan Biton, assistant army Commander of the Cave of Machpelah[128] ; Lieutenant Yitzchak Hamudot, a Commander of the Tanks Company and deputy Commander of army unit assigned to Cave of Machpelah[129] ; and Colonel Yoav Galant.[130]

    From the evidence given by these witnesses we can see that during the two and a half weeks prior to Purim a number of warnings of an attack had been received. Intelligence reports on a planned Arab attack against Jews in Hebron were received around the 6th February[131] and the 10th February,[132] and further reports were received during the days preceding Purim.[133] Two of the witnesses added that they would give additional details in a closed session of the hearings.[134] It is also probable that in the closed minutes and exhibits additional such warnings are given Major Stelman referred to an intelligence report of a planned attack on Jews on their way to the Cave of Machpelah, and the context may indicate that he was referring to Purim.[135]

    Further confirmation of these warnings comes from the submission to the Shamgar Commission by Yisrael Ben-Aharon[136] who was on army reserve duty in the Hebron area during the entire month of February. He wrote that during that month there were a large number of warnings of an impending Arab attack on the Jews in Hebron. The number of these warnings increased towards Purim, and they were very serious indeed.

    Following the killings by Baruch Goldstein, the local Jerusalem weekly paper “Kol Ha’ir” reported that in Kiryat Arba they were saying that the Military Governor of Hebron had said that Baruch Goldstein’s actions had prevented a massacre of Jews.[137] Of course such a newspaper statement is pure hearsay, but it is perhaps significant that no denial of this alleged statement by the Military Governor appeared in either this or subsequent editions of this paper.

    A similar assessment was made by Yisrael Ben-Aharon.. .

    “Conclusions

    1. There is much evidence and many indications that the Arabs were planning a massacre of Jews on the morning of Purim in the Cave of Machpelah.
    These include:
    (i) Evidence given on this point both under oath to the Shamgar Commission and from other sources, both Jewish and Arab. (ii) An intelligence report that on the days immediately prior to Purim, Arabs might try and smuggle explosives into the Cave of Machpelah. (iii) Ample opportunity to smuggle in weapons due to a broken metal detector, damaged even further by Arabs on the night before Purim. (iv) The attendance of an unprecedented number of Arabs who entered the Cave of Machpelah unsearched early in the morning of Purim in the course of a very short span of time, mainly via the gate where they knew the metal detector to be broken. (v) Reports of weapons being found in the Isaac Hall of the Cave of Machpelah after Baruch Goldstein’s actions.

    2. The shouting by hundreds of Arabs “Slaughter the Jews” in the days and hours preceding Purim is reminiscent of the shouting which preceded the massacre of 67 Jews in Hebron in 1929.

    3. In his position as a medical doctor, Dr. Baruch Goldstein was officially informed that the Arabs were planning an attack against the Jews in Hebron.

    4. The evidence shows that Baruch Goldstein planned his act only after he had been told by the defence establishment to prepare for a planned attack by the Arabs against the Jews.

    5. Baruch Goldstein was particularly concerned by what he saw to be the unwillingless of the authorities to do anything to prevent this planned massacre of Jews.

    6. Baruch Goldstein considered that the authorities had been helpless in the past in dealing with attacks on Jews. This view was shared by the Shamgar Commission in its official report.”

    http://chaimsimons.net/baruchgoldstein07

    and

    92-Year-Old Arab Gloats Over 1929 Rape-Massacre, Wants Encore
    Eyewitness gloats over Hevron Arabs’ rape, torture and massacre of Jews from Hevron, asks for more of the same.
    Contact Editor Gil Ronen, 17/05/11 17:47 | updated: 17:32
    Share
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/144262

    Sara Awwad Jaber recalls good old days.Sara Awwad Jaber recalls good old days.MEMRI

    As the world is subjected to a hail of propaganda from Arabs regarding the 1948 “disaster” inflicted upon them by the creation of the state of Israel, Arab press watchdog MEMRI has released a video that places the Arab claims in perspective.

    In the video, a 92-year-old Arab woman, originally from Hevron, glowingly recalls on Hamas-Gaza TV how the Arabs of Hevron, including her father, without provocation, massacred the peaceful Jewish neighbors they had lived beside for years in 1929 – almost 20 years before the 1948 War of Independence. Needless to say, there was no State of Israel then, no IDF, no “occupation” etc.

    To watch the video click HERE.

    (Youtube yanked the video citing copyright infringement but I saw it. Chilling. SZ)

    In an orgy of sadistic violence on August 24, 1929, 67 of Hevron’s Jews were murdered. The Arabs murdered children in front of their parents, severed limbs, raped and burned people alive.

    The British High Commissioner in the Land of Israel, Sir John Chancellor, published a statement following the massacre, saying,
    I have learned with horror of the atrocious acts committed by bodies of ruthless and bloodthirsty evil-doers, of savage murders perpetrated upon defenseless members of the Jewish population regardless of age or sex, accompanied as at Hebron, by acts of unspeakable savagery, of the burning of farms and houses in town and country and of the looting and destruction of property.

    These crimes have brought upon their authors the execration of all civilized peoples throughout the world.

    Photos of the victims of the massacre, which eventually led to the evacuation of all Jews from Hevron, until their return in 1967.”

    Dr. Goldstein was not a terrorist. Terrorists deliberately target non-combatants, especially the most vulnerable. Dr. Goldstein took out the terrorists pre-emptively just before the impending carnage, as they were readying themselves to strike their helpless Jewish targets — as Israel did in 1967. And George W. Bush in 2003:

    ” If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long. (Applause.)”

    https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020601-3.html

    He deserves to be honored.

    Found it:

    “92 Year Old Palestinian Woman Palestinians Should Massacre Jews Like We Massacred Them in Hebron”

    transcript:

    “Uploaded on May 17, 2011
    Interviewer: Please tell us who you are.

    Sara Jaber: I am from Hebron. The Jaber family.

    Interviewer: What is your name?

    Sara Jaber: Sara Muhammad ‘Awwadh Jaber.

    Interviewer: How old are you?

    Sara Jaber: I am 92.

    Interviewer: So you remember May 15, 1948, the day of the Nakba.

    Sara Jaber: Why wouldn’t I remember? May Allah support us. I hope we forget those days. Allah willing, you will bury [Israel], and massacre the Jews with your own hands. Allah willing, you will massacre them like we massacred them in Hebron.

    Interviewer: What does this day mean to you? You have lived 63 years since the Nakba. You have experienced the entire Nakba…

    Sara Jaber: 92 years. That’s 92. I lived through the British era, and I lived through the massacre of the Jews in Hebron. We, the people of Hebron, massacred the Jews. My father massacred them, and brought back some stuff…”

    https://youtu.be/RVUptVOvH6A

  6. xxx

    This is my 3rd and last post because my posts are, for the 2nd day, STILL under “moderation” as undoubtedly this will be, but I came across a sentence, in a commonplace situation in a book written by a very well known author of 100 years ago. This man, in my opinion-and I’ve read many of his books- had a seriously acute sense of balance and knowledge. This is what I picked out….

    “…the pacifist who goes out without a regiment of soldiers or at least a machine gun company behind him, is Not a pacifist, he is a PROVOCATION….”

    By the way Ted.. I still get that “Not Secure” at the address bar at the top of the page.

  7. @ Sebastien Zorn:

    “…
    Nikki Haley, the US ambassador to the UN, has said that America is prepared to take further action if necessary. “When the international community consistently fails in its duty to act collectively, there are times when states are compelled to take their own action,” Haley remarked at a Security Council meeting last week. “The indiscriminate use of chemical weapons against innocent civilians is one of those times…”

    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Eric-Trump-Ivanka-influenced-father-to-launch-Syria-strikes-486728

    A difference only of scale not principal.

    “…Following the killings by Baruch Goldstein, the local Jerusalem weekly paper “Kol Ha’ir” reported that in Kiryat Arba they were saying that the Military Governor of Hebron had said that Baruch Goldstein’s actions had prevented a massacre of Jews…”

    “3. In his position as a medical doctor, Dr. Baruch Goldstein was officially informed that the Arabs were planning an attack against the Jews in Hebron.

    4. The evidence shows that Baruch Goldstein planned his act only after he had been told by the defence establishment to prepare for a planned attack by the Arabs against the Jews.

    5. Baruch Goldstein was particularly concerned by what he saw to be the unwillingless of the authorities to do anything to prevent this planned massacre of Jews.

    6. Baruch Goldstein considered that the authorities had been helpless in the past in dealing with attacks on Jews. This view was shared by the Shamgar Commission in its official report.”

    http://chaimsimons.net/baruchgoldstein07

    And, again, let us take note that this was only a year after the Oslo withdrawal. The Oslo terror war began 4 months after the Lebanon withdrawal. Everybody has pointed out to the aftermath of the Gaza withdrawal.

    FOR PEACE????

    Q: How many terror attacks were perpetrated inside Israel in 1982.
    A: 2

    In 1967?

    (Wait for it.)

    NONE

    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael-3.html

    “…Their refusal to make the difficult choice of telling the Americans “no”, now, at this moment, will see them making the retreats they hope will avert American anger; it will see this effort fail even as the frontier moves from its present lines within the Arab heartland to new ones close to the Jewish cities; and most important, the Americans will make the same demands they always have envisioned since the days of the Roger Plan-total Israeli withdrawal. And since this is a thing that not even the most dovish of Israelis will agree to, the result will be an ultimate Israeli firm “no”, an ultimate American anger of the kind all men of “new initiative” propose to avert today by compromise, and exactly the same conditions of confrontation that would come anyhow if the Israelis said their “no” today. There would be one great difference, however, a “no” today will bring the crisis while Israel stands poised near the Arab capitols. A “no” tomorrow, after all the hapless and confused compromises and “initiatives,” will bring the same crisis near Tel Aviv, Beersheva and Netanya…”

    Kahane, 1976

    http://barbaraginsberg-kahane.blogspot.com/2011_10_01_archive.html

    All of the accounts of pressure to withdraw, including Ted’s, have skipped the Rogers Plan, actually there were two, right after the war, probably because it doesn’t mention Pal statehood. But, it calls for withdrawal. All plans, including the current land-swap or regional governance plans are the same: they call for Israeli withdrawal. It doesn’t matter what they promise will happen after. Withdrawal is withdrawal.
    Even the Sinai is a source of terror, and even Sisi, with Israeli permission to move troops in, has been unable — we assume — to stop it. How many times must we learn the same lesson of what will happen?

  8. @ Sebastien Zorn:
    In fact, an insidious coincidence: Israel wins against overwhelming odds without assistance in 1967. Congress votes for the U.S. “aid” in 1968 (Palestinian-Arab-American terrorist Sirhan Sirhan assassinated Senator Robert Kennedy for voting for it, his first and last terrorist act, like that other Muslim-American in Orlando whose father came in under Reagan).

    The U.S. begins pressure to withdraw in

    wait for it

    1969

    Terrorist attacks in
    1967: 0
    1968:8
    1969:12

    http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html

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