Peloni: As the British are leading a new push against Israeli development of settlements, this article by Ted from 14yrs ago raises a particularly important reminder that the settlements are both legitimate and legal.
By Ted Belman [First Published Feb 20, 2011]
Secretary Clinton delivered a speech at the Brookings Institute in December 2010 in which she said, “We do not accept the legitimacy of continued settlement activity.”
In her recent interview with Christine Amanpour, she said, “I think it is absolutely clear to say, number one, that it’s been American policy for many years that settlements were illegitimate”.
So America’s position has progressed from considering “continued settlement activity” as illegitimate to considering the settlements themselves as illegitimate. Is this a change in US policy? Time will tell.
One must ask whether there is a distinction to be made between settlements and settlement activity and between illegal and illegitimate.
The Oslo Accords was silent on the settlements other than to say they were a final status issue. No mention was made of “settlement activity”.
The Roadmap provides, “GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.” and “Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements)”. Clearly the settlements themselves are not illegal or even illegitimate.
But what about, “settlement activity”? To be “consistent with the Mitchell Report” for this recommendation to be adhered to, the Palestinians would have to adhere to Mitchell’s’ recommendations for them, namely,
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- – “The PA and GOI should resume their efforts to identify, condemn and discourage incitement in all its forms.
– “The PA should make clear through concrete action to Palestinians and Israelis alike that terrorism is reprehensible and unacceptable, and that the PA will make a 100 percent effort to prevent terrorist operations and to punish perpetrators. This effort should include immediate steps to apprehend and incarcerate terrorists operating within the PA’s jurisdiction.”
Clearly the PA which includes Hamas has not in any way complied. Thus Israel has no obligation to comply.
Dictionaries do not make a distinction between “illegal” and ‘illegitimate” and in fact define ‘illegitimate’ as ‘illegal’ or ‘unlawful’. To be so, there must be a law that makes such activity unlawful or illegal or illegitimate. But there is no such law. And why is Obama and everyone else placing so much significance on a non existing difference? The rest of the UN including Europe has no such qualms.
The Road Map describes itself as a process, a roadmap if you will. Even if acceptance of it amounts to a contract, which it doesn’t, the failure to perform or the violation of any obligation would never be anything more than a breach of contract. It would never be called unlawful of illegitimate.
Nor are the settlements or settlement activity, illegal or illegitimate by international law. (See: The Truth about ‘the Occupation’ and ‘the Settlements’ and Alan baker and the Government of Israel Concede too much.)
Both the Oslo Accords and the roadmap required a negotiated solution
Amb Susan Rice agrees. In defense of the veto, she did not take a stand on whether the settlements were illegal, but did say,
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- “It is the Israelis’ and Palestinians’ conflict, and even the best-intentioned outsiders cannot resolve it for them,”
“Therefore, every potential action must be measured against one overriding standard: Will it move the parties closer to negotiations and an agreement?
“Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides. It could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations and, if and when they did resume, to return to the Security Council whenever they reach an impasse.”
This is bottom line. So why doesn’t Obama take her advice and leave it to the parties. Instead he has inserted himself into the negotiations and has predetermined the outcome save for minutia to be negotiated.
Borders, settlements and Jerusalem are all final status issues to be negotiated.
The problem has been that the Quartet keeps supporting the demands of the PA and financing it, and thereby removes any incentive the PA might have to compromise. In effect, they make it possible for the PA harden its demands.
The Quartet used to argue against any steps by Israel which would predetermine the issues. But they are continually doing so by calling the settlements “illegal” and supporting the armistice lines as the borders and requiring Jerusalem to be divided. Is not the act of bringing this matter to the Security Council such a step by the PA? And they voted for it making them complicit.
The truth of the matter is that the Arab world, supported by the Quartet, wants no part of a negotiated settlement. They want Israel to accept the Arab Initiative, otherwise known as the Saudi Plan.
Although Obama vetoed this resolution, he also doesn’t really want to leave it to Israel to decide what to hold out for in negotiations. He wants to pressure Israel to make concessions in its negotiations to make an agreement more likely. Its just like an imposed solution, only better. It certainly isn’t what is meant by a ‘negotiated settlement”.
Ted was right in 2011, and whathe wrote then is still valid today. Recognizing the PLO cum “State of Palestine,” as it styles itself , or the “Palestinian Authority,” as the Israelis call it, is wrong because the charter of the UN specifies that members should be “peace-loving states,” and the PLO regime in Ramallah is not peace-loving. Onthe contrary, it rewards terrorists with salaries and pensions for carrying out terrorist attacks on Israelis, and frequently broadcasts on its television and radio appeals to young proplr to commit terrorist attacks. This is called becoming a “martyr.”
The PLO also fails to meet the definition of a sovereign state because it still doesn’t govern a clearly defined, contiguous territory. But I regard that as a lesser issue. It can be argued that this is true of Israel as well, since its borders are still somewhat in flux and disputed.
The PLO, unlike Israel, has refused every offer of statehood because it’s only goal is to destroy Israel. It has autonomous status. The borders set by the League of Nations in 1922 remain the law.
President Carter declares Jewish settlements illegal – April 21, 1978
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/state-department-legal-advisor-concerning-the-legality-of-israeli-settlements
n May 1978, several significant disasters occurred in the United States, including the New Orleans flash flood, the Whippoorwill tornado, and the Palo Duro Canyon flood. Additionally, there was a mid-air collision and a plane overran the runway at Miami International Airport.
New Orleans Flash Flood: On May 3, 1978, New Orleans experienced a historic flash flood with over 10 inches of rain falling within a short period, causing widespread flooding and damage.
Whippoorwill Tornado: A tornado struck the showboat Whippoorwill on Pomona Lake in Kansas, resulting in multiple fatalities and injuries.
Palo Duro Canyon Flood: A severe flash flood in Palo Duro Canyon in Texas led to dangerous conditions for those visiting the canyon.
Mid-Air Collision: A mid-air collision occurred in the Memphis area, resulting in the loss of all occupants of both aircraft.
Plane Overran Runway: A Convair CV-880-22-2 aircraft overran the runway at Miami International Airport due to improper loading, causing a total loss of the aircraft.
The Willow Island disaster, which occurred on April 27, 1978, was a significant disaster in America. The collapse of a cooling tower under construction at the Pleasants Power Station in Willow Island, West Virginia, resulted in the deaths of 51 construction workers. This event is considered the deadliest construction accident in U.S. history.
The disaster was caused by the premature collapse of the cooling tower’s scaffolding, which occurred because the concrete hadn’t had enough time to cure. The scaffolding was 168 feet above the ground when it failed. The accident led to numerous tragedies for families in the area, as many of the workers were local and often had close family connections to other workers on the site.
Forty-five years since the Williow Island disaster
The Willow Island disaster remains a stark reminder of the importance of safety regulations in construction and is still remembered and mourned by many in the region. The date, April 27, is also relevant because National Workers Memorial Day, which honors workers who have died on the job, is observed on April 28.
Sept. 3, 1939 Nazi Germany declares war on Britain.
The white paper, formalized as a Palestine Order in Council in August, reaffirmed the British commitment to a national home, promised that Palestine would not become a Jewish State and that Arabs would not be subordinated to Jews.
Churchill White Paper – Wikipedia
AI Overview
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The 1939 White Paper, a British government policy document, was published in response to the 1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine. It was prepared by Secretary of State for the Colonies, Malcolm MacDonald, and aimed to address the rising tensions between Jews and Arabs in the region. The paper proposed a series of measures, including immigration quotas for Jews, restrictions on settlement and land sales to Jews, and constitutional measures leading to a self-governing Arab state with provisions to protect Jewish rights.
While Churchill was a prominent figure in British politics during this time, he is known for his opposition to the 1939 White Paper. He viewed the policy as a breach of Britain’s undertaking to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine, as outlined in the Balfour Declaration. Churchill believed that the White Paper was a “disastrous policy” that would be detrimental to Jewish interests and a violation of British commitments. He argued that some form of partition was necessary to resolve the situation in Palestine.
The White Paper also introduced restrictions on Jewish immigration, which was limited to 75,000 for the next five years and would only be further permitted if the Arabs of Palestine were willing to accept it. This provision was seen by many as a significant setback to the Zionist movement and the prospect of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
In summary, the 1939 White Paper was a policy document issued by the British government that aimed to address the escalating conflict in Palestine. While it introduced provisions to protect Jewish rights, it also imposed restrictions on Jewish immigration and settlement, which was strongly opposed by Churchill, who viewed it as a betrayal of Britain’s commitment to the Jewish people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_White_Paper
I googled: “June 1922 British disasters” (sans quotes) and got this AI overview.
https://aish.com/israel-fdrs-secret-correspondence-with-the-saudi-king/
Even better, declare Judea and Samaria part of sovereign Israel, as seen here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diaAvACPgSU
https://www.godreports.com/2014/08/miracles-in-israel-hand-of-god-diverts-incoming-missile-mysterious-fog-helps-troops/
This article from 2022 references Israpundit.
https://biblefocus.net/notes/events/two-state-solution-and-America-divided.html
From 2016
It’s not up to anyone except Israel to determine the status of Judaea and Samaria, and Israel has the Bible itself as guarantor: these areas are part of G-d’s gift to Israel, and He wants them settled by Jews. Israel’s failure to do so until now has led to the problems outlined above. And the Quartet should just b — out!
Bill Narvey says:
It’s a distinction with a very important difference as I noted above.
From Meet the Press:
I agree. As usual, Moshe Dann, from whom the excerpt is taken, is right on the money. Good find, Yamit.
I DONT CARE WHAT THIS CLINTON HAD TO SAY AS FAR AS I,M CONCERN JUDIA AND SAMERIA AND JERUSALEM ALL OF ISRAEL BELONG TO THE JEWISH NATION ITS NOT A SETTELLMENT IF CLINTON OR ANY BODY DONT AGREE LET THEM TAKE A HIKE GO TO SAUIDE ARABIA AND DIG A 20 FOOT HOLE AND STAY THERE CLINTON HER SELF IS ILLEGITIMAT AND ILLEGAL
FIFY
NO road-map NO road-shmap!
ISRAEL = palestine = ISRAEL. This is The Fact, since time immemorial.
Those who call themselves “palestinians” are FAKE. It’s a Grand Dirty Lie. They never existed.
The only true Palestinians are those thousands of JEWS who continuously maintained presence in the Holy Land for 2000 years, since the romans started the expulsion of Jews and by that the beginning the Diaspora.
As Mark Twain wrote in his reports to his NYC newspaper at the end of 19th century, that Jews were a total majority in Palestine. yes, they were all these years, despite Romans’ laws. Jews lived in Palestine ALL 2000+ years until the first mass immigration has began in the end of 19th century, the First Aliya. But even before that, Jews were always coming there to settle and live as their forthfathers lived, they were fullfilling their optimal dreams.
Mark Twain is not the only source that proves the Jewish Majority in Palestine ALL 2000 years plus… it’s everywhere, in every single historical book and encyclopedias from 18th…17th..15th centuries, in every historical document related to Palestine.
Jews should and MUST live anywhere in their own land, PALESTINE, without asking NOBODY’s advise.
Hey you “stiff-necked” Jews! Get with the program!
Doesn’t matter who argues for what about Judea and Samaria…God drew the lines in the sand long long ago, and that is the way it will ultimately come out. However, I think there will be a lot more heartache and bloodshed before that comes about. He (God) has drawn an excellent roadmap to follow, including the consequences for failing to do so..and so we await the “rest of the story”.
When it comes to the matter of legitimacy and legality…maybe the U.S. and Canada should be giving their land back to the First Nation Indians…it was basically “stolen” from them.
Whether settlements are illegitimate or not is just a matter of personal opinion without any consequence in International Law. Just remember that if a child is called “illegitimate,” it still has inalienable rights.
I agree with Yamit at 5:40 p.m., but of course what Israelis thought they were doing was using the land as a bargaining chip, at a time when land for peace still seemed real. But, again, that only shows Israelis were always too afraid to have – really have – what they were entitled to, whether the entitlement was Biblically-based, historically-based, legally-based, morally-based, or any other basis at all.
Yes Narvey sometimes, then sometimes not: Maybe some sarcasism is just a Crap-shoot.
Dunno? Why do you suppose it was meant to reveal anything about myself?
I think you tend to be too cerebral? You try too hard to be relevant. Learn to go with the flow.
FIFY
Israel finds herself today in a trap of her own making!
Schizophrenia is not a viable basis for foreign policy.
Since Israel cannot make up its mind about the status of Judea and Samaria, why should anyone agree to any Jewish Israeli claims? As long as Israeli governments continue to support the two-state plan, rendering settlements as bargaining chips towards a future peace agreement, the question of who is entitled to Judea and Samaria has already been decided; what remains is only the timing and the price to be paid.
The more Israel promotes another Palestinian state, the more its position in Judea and Samaria becomes untenable, and the more that issue will be used to delegitimize Israel. If the areas of settlement in Judea and Samaria don’t belong to us, what are we doing there?
Then Mubarak or Qaddafi is inside.
Yamit,sometimes sarcasm reveals intelligent insight. What did you expect your sarcasm re: Canadians would reveal about yourself?
His friend asks ,”And how did you know?” Ahmad answers, “Because the sign on the bathroom door always said ‘occupied’.”
What if it said out of order?
I’m sure the Canadians will be thrilled to read this comment.Lol
PS, I didn’t intent to exclude our great neighbor Canada. I sometimes think of Canada and our country as one.
The UN
For all the funding provided by the US and other governments this cesspool of real bad characters has done very little good for the free world.
For instance, think about those nations who are constantly condemning Israel for everything including bad weather. A majority are run by scumbags who treat their own citizens and women (especially) like crap.
They are generally engaged in terrorist attacks against Israel directly, indirectly and or financially.
Israel on the other hand has not and does not threaten any of her neighbors, any military engagement is defense in nature all while maintaining her rights to develop the land G-d provided for them.
The US certainly doesn’t need the UN, likewise GB, France, Germany, Italy including a few others.
The UN has done a lousy job assisting undeveloped nations or assisting them against terrorism.
Can we all agree it’s time to disband this useless, worthless costly body that harbors the worst of the worst nations at our expense.
Time for the good nations to form the “Free World Alliance” and tell the bad character nations to hit the road.
2/3 of UN members sponsored UNSC draft Security Resolution 10178. The following identifies the 14 UNSC members that voted for the Resolution and summaries what each had to say:
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10178.doc.htm
I could not find the text of the Resolution. If you have it Ted, it would be helpful to understanding the exact positions of the UN if you posted it.
Susan Rice speaking on behalf of the Obama administration, endorsed the spirit of the Resolution but voted against it. Trying to suggest the U.S. considers settlement activity illegitimate, but refusing to say it is illegal, makes a distinction without a difference. That the U.S. would hold fast to this non-distinction as if it has any meaning, boggles the mind, but then again diplomatic words and ideas often bare no resemblance to the world we ordinary people live in.
The U.S. under Obama is a hair’s breadth away from aligning with the other 14 UNSC members that voted for draft UNSCR 10178.
So you now have Israel breathing a sigh of relief, thanking and likely feeling indebted to the U.S.
It makes one wonder however, whether Israel feels indebted to the U.S. and what price will Obama later extract from Israel? Alternatively, there is a very good chance that Israel has already already pre-paid Obama with promises to shift positions re: negotiations and the Palestinians, which promises Obama extracted in return for his magnanimous almost empty gesture of standing in defence of Israel?
No matter which way you cut it, Obama’s avowed “rock solid support and friendship of Israel” has given a whole new meaning to the phrase “rock solid”. One should not however, beat up only on Obama for he has simply further advanced the positions of prior American Presidents in relation to Israel and the settlement issue.
The much used phrase used by the 14 UNSC members that has been voiced by the U.S., the Quartet, and just about all other UN members about “not wanting to pre-judge the outcome of negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians” is another diplo-speak example of saying one thing and doing the exact opposite.
Many writers opine with great consternation that Israel is becoming increasingly isolated. News flash. It is already virtually isolated.
Canada and only Canada, while it does seek to strike a balanced policy regarding Israel and the Palestinians, has been unequivocal and most forceful in speaking out against anti-semitism not only within Palestinian society and the Middle East, but against the undercurrent of anti-semitism that has led most U.N. members to demonize Israel.
Who’s “we”? Does Hillary have a frog in her pocket. Or is she using the “Royal We”, like Queen Elizabeth?
That’s strange, I always thought there were empty headed Arabs inside the lavatories because it always says “vacant”.
Reminds me of a Palestinian Arab joke: Ahmad complains to his friend as they get off the plane that he couldn’t use the airplane restroom because there was always a Jew inside. His friend asks ,”And how did you know?” Ahmad answers, “Because the sign on the bathroom door always said ‘occupied’.”
Wouldn’t be the first time that what had seemed a far-fetched proposition at one point in time turned out to have been a project in its embryonic stages later on. The present US administration is, I suspect, capable of things we cannot dream of.
American “settlements” in Arizona, Califonia, New Mexico, Texas and other areas once controlled by Mexico are also illegal and illegitimate. Mexico lost thsee lands to America and wants them back. All settlement on these lands including natural growth should be halted until a final status agreement can be reached with Mexico to settle this conflict. I don’t see America agreeing to such a thing or agreeing to halt settlement on these lands. As such, they should not be expecting Israel to do something simillar.
Of course the settlements are neither illegitimate nor illegal. So why doesn’t Netanyahu’s government just annex them to the State of Israel? There are times I think the leadership of Israel, pretending to be Jewish nationalists, are just tailor’s dummies for the American presidency and the detestable Arabists of the US State Department.
Talk is cheap. The time to act is now.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
He’s trying to change the climate of opinion in America: to put it at variance with America’s traditional, popular (if not always governmental) support for Jewish restoration/sovereignty in Eretz.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/custpage.cfm/frm/78523/sec_id/78523
What she means to say is “Jews”, are illegitimate. She dare not say it in such explicit terms, as yet. It’s a matter of time before she finds her “comfort level” to be more explicit.
Thanks! Ted has now made it fool-proof to be able to post if you’ve ever signed in which I guess means everyone can get in to comment, but it also means even incompetent with inorganic things me can post.
Lori, glad to see you on board.
This place has been infested with liberals and anti-Semites to the extent we we need help.
Ted has been playing referee keeping everyone in line.
Yamit82, ShyGuy , Laura are among those in the trenches fighting off the liberals.
Be sure to hang out more often.
By the way about Z-Street encouraging a national Jewish Heritage Day, a day Jews (liberal Americans) begin to be proud to be Jewish.
As I mentioned many times over, “No matter where you reside in the world, if you are Jewish you are connected to Israel, by Heritage, Faith and by G-d”.
Well done, Ted, and necessary.
Susan Rice, as the dummy to Obama’s ventriloquist (although I have no doubt that there is an infinite regression of dummies to ventriloquists behind the mirror of Rice and Obama) wants to keep saying the parties have to negotiate the settlement at the same time that they want to impose the settlement favored by the Arab Palestinians.
I have to agree, unfortunately, as CM wrote,”the Israeli government has failed utterly to make the legal and historical case for Judea and Samaria and can now only hang on”…but I’m not prepared to embrace the rest of the statement.
There are definitions for “illegitimate” other than the one you cite. That’s the game Obama and Clinton are now playing: characterize the settlements as something that is nearly, but not quite, illegal per international law. That places the maximum amount of political pressure on Israel to succumb without creating a precedent where resolutions passed by the League of Nations or UNSC would be subject to challenge and reversal (which is something the US doesn’t want). Still, the media are pretending that “illegitimate” and “illegal” are one in the same and lying in their reporting.
As I’ve often written, the Israeli government has failed utterly to make the legal and historical case for Judea and Samaria and can now only hang on as the land is gradually wrestled away from her in various international forums.
Hillary is just carrying the baton from the previous administration who whose best friend status showed the world just how easy it is to take Israel for the old proverbial ride.
if you know what I mean.How disingenuous to expect more from HC and the Obama administration when the wolf in sheep’s clothing caused the latest attitudes on Jerusalem.while we were in our self imposed blind high thinking we had a good friend on our side.On Jerusalem Bush screwed Israel so bad the pain of it is still too great to express in words. Please
Every time you moan and groan about the quartet remember that shanda was the brain child of our best friend Bush whose idea to choose 3 known arch enemies of Israel
for appeasement purposesand call them the QUARTET FOR PEACE was one of the worst things ever done to Israel by a friend….except of course promising to sign the embassy act and never doing it while at the same time re-singing the lease for the office of the PLO in the U.S. SEVERAL TIMES…while at the same time not acknowledging the “anniversary of the reunification of Jerusalem” by not sending a congratulatory letter or a representative of his administration, all happening before Bush admonished the Knesset to TAKE GOOD CARE OF (his puppet) OLMERT, all following giving tens of millions of dollars to the PA following the worst intifada ever, followed by calling a denier of the Shoah a “man of peace” who in full view of the guy who whitewashed him designed a poster which showed all of Israel Palestine while at the same time allowing his U.S. sponsored security forces to MARCH TO THE NAZI GOOSESTEP!!
How disingenuous indeed to rail on Obama and Hillary and all the rest when in fact the hierarchy of the Republican party did squat, said squat and acted squat while our good friend more or less raped us. The place Israel finds itself in now is because of Bush!! And the rational of BLAME BUSH FOR EVERYTHING is a like a childish temper tantrum to deflect responsibility.