Condemned for Defamation of Jamal al Dura

French Journalist and Israeli Surgeon

By Véronique Chemla

On April 29, 2011, a Parisian Tribunal found Israeli surgeon Dr. Yehuda David, French journalist Clément Weill-Raynal and French Jewish weekly magazine Actualité juive guilty of public defamation of Palestinian Jamal Al Dura.

Jamal Al Dura had charged the defendants with defaming his honour and his reputation by two articles authored by Clément Weill-Raynal and published on September 4 and 25, 2008, by Actualité juive.

Those articles, especially an interview of Dr.Yehuda David, asserted that Jamal Al Dura’s wounds dated back to a Palestinian attack on him with axes in 1992, and not to an Israeli gunfight in 2000 at the Netzarim junction (Gaza strip).

Dr. David told Weill-Raynal that he performed a tendon transfer surgery from Jamal Al Dura’s left foot to his paralyzed right hand in 1994, at the Tal ha Shomer hospital in Tel Aviv. Thus, Al Dura’s scars in that foot and in that hand resulted both from the axe wound and from his reconstructive surgery. Dr. David was also convinced that Al Dura’s other wound was not a bullet wound.

The defendants had thus contradicted a report which was aired on September 30, 2000 by France 2 TV. Charles Enderlin, Chief of the France 2 bureau in Jerusalem, had then commented regarding his Palestinian cameraman Talal Abu Rahma’s images:

    “Jamal [Al Dura] and his son Mohammed are the targets of gunshots that have come from the Israeli position… Mohammed is dead and his father seriously wounded”.

The Tribunal did not follow Public Prosecutor Dominique Lefebvre-Ligneul’s sentencing recommendation to drop the charges against the three defendants. It ordered each of the three defendants to pay a 1,000 € ($ 1,480) fine, but issued a total stay of execution of that sentence.

Moreover, it ordered them to pay together to Al Dura 5,000 € ($7,404) in damages and the same amount of money in Tribunal costs.

It granted its partial summary judgment by Actualité juive within one month, but dismissed Al Dura’s other demands.

Thus, the Tribunal issued a severe judgement.

It considered as defamatory several passages of those two articles which alleged that Jamal al-Dura had deliberately fooled the public by falsely claiming his old wounds and his son’s death had been caused by Israeli shootings, as well as by participating in a staged scene with Palestinian doctors’ complicity.

The Tribunal did not dismiss the charges against the defendants because it stated that they failed in giving the proof of the truth of the defamatory statements and of their “good faith”.

It noted that Dr. David, Weill-Raynal and Actualité juive’s proofs — Al Dura’s Israeli medical file, France 2’s film — were not “perfect and complete”, and didn’t “correlate to the defamatory accusations in their materiality and their breadth”.

The Tribunal asserted that Al Dura’s Israeli medical file about his surgery in 1994 does not prove that his perpetrated wounds would have been staged with his complicity on September 30, 2000. According to the Tribunal, the Jordanian medical report made a difference between Al Dura’s “old wounds in his right hand” from “other wounds” which, “on that report basis, would have been noticed when Al Dura was admitted to Al Hussein Hospital, in Hamman”, on “December 4, 2000”.

The tribunal also disregarded Richard Prasquier, President of the CRIF, the French Jewish umbrella organization, and Journalist Luc Rosenzweig’s testimonies, as well as the 2008 Court of Appeals judgment, because they didn’t bring “any detail on the civil party’s wounds”.

As to the “good faith”, the Tribunal acknowledged that it was legitimate for Dr. David to answer questions related to that controversial footage, and for Weill-Raynal to interview him in order to inform readers on an international affair, the image of Mohammed Al Dura’s death having become “emblematic of the Palestinian cause”.

However, the Tribunal considered that the defendants could not benefit from the “good faith” excuse. Dr. David gave his “peremptory declaration” on all Al Dura’s wounds without “examining his former patient or reading his Jordanian medical file”. Weill-Raynal was not a “neutral” interviewer and his investigation was not “serious”.

The three defendants will appeal the judgment.

Maître Orly Rezlan, Al Dura’s lawyer, wrote to me on May 1, 2011: “That trial allowed to show the limits of ” Dr. David’s sayings.

Nevertheless, many questions, discrepancies and contradictions remain to be resolved:

    – when was Al-Dura admitted to the Amman Hospital? According to the Tribunal, Al Dura’s Jordanian “medical report” mentions as his admission hospital date “December 4, 2000”. Prof. Walden based his one-page report on Al Dura’s Jordanian “medical chart for the hospitalization at the Al Hussein Medical City Hospital in Amman on October 1st, 2000”. But France 2 TV filmed Jamal Al Dura at Gaza hospital on “October 1st, 2000” ;

    – in 2004, Al Dura showed an alleged bullet scar near his right foot, whereas he was filmed on October 1st, 2000, without any injury, any bandage, near his right foot, etc.

By ignoring Dr. David’s expertise and experience as a surgeon on the battlefields for an IDF paratroopers unit, Al Dura’s refusal to answer Weill-Raynal’s questions and some contradictions and discrepancies, the Tribunal issued a questionable judgment.

That article was first published by Ami magazine in a more concise version.

May 9, 2011 | 42 Comments »

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  1. I can assure you that with the election of the majority Conservative government and the fresh, new political scene in Canada, the days of the Human Rights Commissions are numbered and may, in fact be over as of this moment. The Human Rights Commissions, as I understand them, were not intended to censure free speech but were hijacked by leftists and used by enemies of free speech as lawfare. I just had dinner with the probable next speaker of the House of Commons and can assure you that political correctness is OUT. See, that’s one of the beauties of Canadian freedom: we oust governments we don’t like and replace them with governments that are more consistent with the Canadian way of life.

  2. Emmess, who did I insult? Would it be more accurate to say that the US is one of the freest countries in the world, rather than the most? I won’t nitpick.

    Canada? With its “Human Rights Commission”? I have been in Canada several times these past few years. The practical day by day difference between Canada and the US is less than negligible. Nevertheless, I don’t argue with your warnings of which way the wind is blowing in the US. It’s part of what I intended in my prior comment’s paragraph and most specifically in the last sentence therein.

  3. Just a tiny quibble with with Shy Guy. Living 20 minutes from the border I understand the American passion but by saying no other country enjoys the freedom and liberty of the United States is not only insulting but it is wrong. There once was an America where freedom rang. Today it’s a bureaucratically controlled, paranoid state headed by an elected king who has little if any understanding of what a free society is or should be. If you want to live in AMERICA, you’ll have to come to my side of the border.
    An interesting aspect of Genesis 12:3 is that when it comes to blessings, it refers to the collective which I interpret to be the American people. The curse, however, is in the singular form which I interpret to mean the U.S. administration. Yes, your grandparents came to a benevolent America as mine came to a similarly benevolent Canada but the institutional United States has committed a crime equal in malevolence to Europe’s unspeakable crimes: betrayal.

  4. After all is said and done, ‘the die IS cast.’ The world’s new theology is not religion, but rather, ‘The God of Tolerance thou shalt serve.” A God your fathers did not now know. The Book of Daniel: Storyline Babylon, Dateline: Jewish Exile… reveals prophecies for the end days.. and we are in them.

    The sanity your heart longs for will not be found among today’s world Leadership, in fact; they are all swept into the Great Vacuum of Never Never Land. Forget about sanity, it will only be found in the pages of Holy Writ; both old and New-er… which testify of the messenger of the covenant. And one last thing, … as far as
    triune gobble-de-gook, have a read of Genesis 18 where that seed was planted by The Sovereign.

    Kiss you know what —–… France. Ye have gone down the slippery slope with the rest of them. Geert Wilders for President!

  5. BlandOatmeal says:
    May 11, 2011 at 11:46 pm

    I’m sorry my comments have attracted such tirades against you by others. I am glad to have Arnold share my country with me, and wish him happiness here unto the end of his days. As for you, Shy, I was only curious about the identity issue. My son-in-law is also a dual citizen, but I never heard him describe himself to be “proud” of this nationality or that. His identification is with his family and his God, which is as I feel it ought to be. Israel does well to have you there.

    There is an obligatory Jewish trait called “hakarat hatov”, gratitude of good and benefit bestowed upon ones self by others. The sages in the Talmud often give extreme examples of even recognizing the good in people or kingdoms which have been highly detrimental to the Jewish people in ancient history.

    The United States is not Russia or Poland or Egypt or Syria or Europe for that matter. It is the haven which allowed my parents to rebuild a new life after their own lives were almost snuffed out. And the US didn’t do it in just small ways. Americans (still) enjoy liberties and freedoms to an extent that no other country does. And for all the hate I’ve seen while growing up in America, I’ve seen much more kindness and simple neighborliness not found much elsewhere, let alone for Jews.

    Don’t tell me I can’t be proud of America. G-d bless her!

    Is America my home? It was. I have moved on to where my peoople belong, to G-d’s eternal land for the Jewish nation – even better – to Jerusalem the holy city.

    If you want a metaphor, I kiss the soil of Israel, while I give the soil of America my warmest and firmest hug. I was taught from early childhood to understand that every country where Jews have been in exile (the diaspora) for the last 2000 years is nothing but a way station on the way back to our homeland. Even achieving that dream was made that much easier by America.

    I worry for America. I really do. It has lost much of its relative morality and intelligence since my childhood days. That is its biggest problem. I wish America luck in rebounding before it is too late. Europe II shouldn’t happen to a dog.

  6. BO,

    I don’t know about Shy, but I don’t even bother to read comments that attack me rather than the points that I raise either here or on other blogsites. Life is too short to feel compelled to spend any part of my allotted time picking journalistic wood ticks off my skin or clothing. I go my way, serene and certain in what I know and what I want.

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI

  7. Just for your information, a poll revealed on Sun News TV conducted after the Federal election of May 2nd, had the following interesting results, especially in light of the fact that the Liberal Party “owned” the Jewish vote.

    Jewish voters voting Conservative: 52%
    Jewish voters voting Liberal: 24%

    Muslim voters voting Conservative: 12%

    And the Conservatives won a majority by a landslide. There is no liability in being pro-Israel.

  8. Arnold & Shy,

    I’m sorry my comments have attracted such tirades against you by others. I am glad to have Arnold share my country with me, and wish him happiness here unto the end of his days. As for you, Shy, I was only curious about the identity issue. My son-in-law is also a dual citizen, but I never heard him describe himself to be “proud” of this nationality or that. His identification is with his family and his God, which is as I feel it ought to be. Israel does well to have you there.


    You haven’t responded to my last post, and it is just as well because we were straying way off the topic. I wrote my little piece because you and Shy had said some untrue things about the Christian roots of American culture. People from many backgrounds have contributed, over the years, to my country; but they were ADDING TO something that was there when they came – which in turn came out of a struggle among Christians to be free to worship as they saw fit. Democracy did not come here from Greece; it came in the form of the Town Meetings of New England, which were actually congregational church meetings. Atheists, also, had no part in setting up the ethos of this country: My ancestors did not undertake a dangerous passage, followed by a winter in which half their number died, under the inspiration of Atheism; and when they gave thanks the following year for the plentiful harvest, they were not thanking the corn. You did not give the “atheist” comment, but the one who did does not merit my attention. I wanted to set the record straight, not only because of what you and others here have said, but because of the torrent of historical revisionism that has entered into dialogs here and elsewhere on the Web.

    By the way, Yamit, I’m sorry for the “knots in your head” comment. You took it well, though a couple others who have come sniping here fit that description to a tee.

    On the subject of those two men who were apparently shamefully treated in the French courts, all I can say is that France seems to be giving away what could have been a proud heritage, in exchange for the slop of political correctness. I don’t think most Americans, including Arnold Harris especially, want to do the same here.

  9. Belman

    Obama deserves all the heat he gets and more.

    That statement may hold an iota of sense, if he had:-
    1. Come into power in a military coup
    2. Come into power as a dictator

    But he didn’t. He was voted in. He is in by popular choice. Therefore smears and lies, will have not have the slightest affect on his chances of being re-elected. Your dream of Palin becoming President isn’t going to materialise. However, I personally wish she did win the highest office, just to prove you wrong. Your misguided belief that she would put Israel above her own interests and support territorial expansion, or declare a war on Islam (even Bush wasn’t that ignorant, see below ) are plain delusions. Again, you seem to think the President can act according to whim. He/she cannot.

    Bush: War Can’t Be Islam Vs. ChristianityIf you ever talk to radio yapper Mike Gallagher you shouldn’t bother to say it’s off the record. That won’t stop him from blabbing as he did when he mentioned to the George Christian Coalition what President Bush told him recently:

    He told the audience he was fresh back from an hour-and-45-minute session which President Bush held in the Oval Office Friday afternoon with him and four other conservative talk show hosts: Atlanta’s Neal Boortz, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity and Michael Medved. Rush Limbaugh couldn’t make it, he said.

    Though he said this session was supposed to be off the record, Gallagher described it at some length, including Bush’s observation to the right-wing radio jocks that the War on Terror has to be about right versus wrong, “because if it’s about Christianity versus Islam, we’ll lose.”
    “Remind me never to invite you to an off-the-record session,” [Ann] Coulter said after his introduction.

  10. About the ad hominem attacks: I confine my comments to using my literary teeth against national leaders and other public figures, countries and cultures hostile to the USA, Israel, Christians, Jews, western civilization, Zionism or whatever else I support.

    What I don’t do is get involved in pissing contests with other commenters on blogsites on which I take up temporary or long-term residence. Part of the reason I avoid such tactics is that I really don’t give a damn what other people think of me. The other angle is that nobody ever is convinced against his or her own will. (If that were otherwise, most of the world long ago would have acquiesced to the slavery of Islam and other abhorrent cultural manifestations posturing as religions.)

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI

  11. Belman

    I am not happy with how this thread has been going. Any future comments that contain ad hominem attacks will be deleted.

    I wish President Obama had had the same luxury of being able to delete comments on the internet, that made ad hominem attacks on his validity as a candidate for office. Certain segments of society (please take a look in the mirror here) were/are had an agenda to discredit him.

  12. Reading the article, it looks to me that there has been insufficient preparation of the case against Al Dura. Gaps were left which the (probably biased) Court has exploited. A scandalous decision which I hope will be reversed on appeal.

  13. and Shyguy, from you said above, it’s clear you’re too old to think clearly and way too old for making any sensible political decisions. It is easy to fantasise when you are a child or when you are of advanced years. Go and retire somewhere and take your potty mouth with you.

  14. Shyguy

    You sound like a fifth columnist if you have dual citizenship. Stop poking your nose in US politics if you have no loyalty to the country. Someone should alert the US embassy in Israel about you. Kahane supporters are not welcome to the US.

  15. Dr. Strangelove says:
    May 11, 2011 at 8:38 am

    Shy Guy! “the most anti-American president evah”. Has 30yrs of davening at the Western Wall made you as ignorant as you are?

    No but the existence of dodos like yourself remind me that my prayers have not been answered.

    You must have missed the 20yrs of the Bushes in power.

    So we are quibbling about jockeying for position among the top 5? Or did you forget to take your rabies shot?

    Why don’t you give up your dual citizenship? We’ve got enough idiots here.

    Since I’m in Israel and your “here” is in America, and that’s where you are, follow your own concerns and drown yourself in the toilet. It’ll be my pleasure to pay the plumbing bill.

  16. Arnold Harris! PROUD to be an a**hole! Congradulations! Nothing more to say about that.

    Shy Guy! “the most anti-American president evah”. Has 30yrs of davening at the Western Wall made you as ignorant as you are? You must have missed the 20yrs of the Bushes in power. And I know you can’t show me anything Anti-American about Obama without referring to right-wing, lying, propaganda talking points. I suppose you love David and Charles Koch, who are currently in the lead for having our democracy dismantled and turning us into a fascist nation. Why don’t you give up your dual citizenship? We’ve got enough idiots here.

    Bland Oatmeal! “America was built on Christian values”. No it wasn’t! It was built, somewhat, on common sense, human values. Had it been built on Christian values, the Ten Commandments would be the law of the land. As it is, only 2 commandments are strict laws, and 2 others are laws in varying degrees. Same as practically every other nation on the planet. You do remember the 1st amendmant of the Constitution, don’t you? That was to separate us from “Christian” values. I hope you haven’t been listening to David Barton’s re-writing of American history.

  17. If you’re in the Nashville area, Geert Wilders will be speaking on Thursday. The URL about the talk is on
    Personally, I agree with everything he says particularly that there is no “extremist Islam” or “moderate Islam; all Islam is equally homicidal towards Jews and Israel.

  18. Congratulations to steven L for being the only person to make a comment relating to the article about al-Dura’s law suit.

    The issue is that a frogy hearing found that Jews who exposed a mohammedan’s lies were guilty of defamation. The grounds on which an appeal will be based indicate that the matter is not clear cut and the “tribunal” allowed its prejuduces to influence its decision. The case should have been thrown out when al-Dura refused to testify. In effect, the frogs croaked that if a mohammedan says something and doubt is cast on it his honour is impugned.

    That says a lot about frogy and mophammedan hounour.

  19. Let’s be serious guys.

    Fabrication of evidences being a modus operandi for the Palestinians, it would be no surprise that the “picture of the foot” did not belong to Al Dura!

  20. My family came from the Quakers and they fed George Washington Army even though they were not supposed to take sides or help war. But we are all mixed family backgrounds now I just want to offer my opinion here.

    The American people see the light !!!! We have had a problem with voter fraud since the democrats (marxist) run all the polling places. Most Americans hate Obama and there are many efforts going on to impeach him. We are all broke tired and working our asses off.

    This is just my opinion as an American. I am middle aged and have studied some and lived overseas. America is not a democracy.

    America, started by a bunch of nerds who all had classical educations, it is a Civilized Greeko-Roman style Representative Republic, heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values and having an Anglo Saxon Constitution, meaning a document written by the people telling their monarchy (and the congress) how they are permitted to rule. In this order the Anglo Saxons were the first to have a document followed by the Magna Carta, the Mayflower Compact, and the US Constitution. The USA has basically continued the Roman/Byzantine Empire in combo with the anglo saxon traditions. Very little squabbling goes on between the varieties of religions.

    Having said that, we now have ….I am guessing.. 30% Marxists/socialists who have been brainwashed since Kruchev sent his minions in the 1950’s, took over the school system and the democrat party and the universities ALL of them. Many were influenced by a famous book called Rules for radicals by Sol Alinsky, a favorite of the Clintons and Obama. This version of communism came out of Chicago.

    We have and about 40% true constitution lovers and 30% of the individuals are any combination and confused about what they stand for. Only half of the Conservative Constitutional lovers have any idea about the threat of radical islam. Most Americans like Jews, are proud to have ended slavery of blacks and freed Jews in WW2 and a large amount believe that the Jews are probably Gods chosen people. Americans are incredibly tolerant and can’t even believe that islam is evil in anyway. Americans are also gullible and have a worse quality of education than they used too. We are very hard workers often having little time to study anything.

    I personally know few who have any knowledge about the history of islam, the Byzantine Empire or general European history, but they can sing you the sponge Bob Theme song …having said that we do have a smart solid group that can rival any group of nerds from Europe but the influx of the mexican poor and islamists is heavy. Our military leaders are the smartest ones in our society (my opinion) but they always follow the commander and chief in this case Barry Soetoro, otherwise known as Obama.

    We are out of money, and really at the beginning of a possible civil war period and the break down of the states, which are probably going to start leaving the union in the near future. This is a result of too much communism and a big fat nanny state.
    Just my own take on it
    American Conservative

  21. Yamit,

    I assume you don’t expect a response to most of your post, as it is meaningless trash. You did bring up one point, though, which shows such ignorance it requires attention. You said,

    “So to be a real American one must hold to Quaker values?”

    Like it or not, Yamit, America actually does have a history as old as that of the Jews. The history of our spiritual forefathers in Israel is, of course, the same as that of the Palestinian Jews. The Jews, of course, had a lot of Babylonian influence, since most of their community lived there. During the Roman period, the Mosaic religion was split because of the disastrous Zealot Revolt. The Messianic faction survived through proselytizing non-Jews, the “Patriarch” faction was destroyed at Yavneh, and the Pharisaical faction re-invented itself in the same place and merged with the Babylonians as what we now call “Judaism”.

    In case you don’t know any history at all, let me explain further: The proselytizing Jews found converts throughout the Roman Empire, and into Parthia, Armenia and Axum, and perhaps as far as Kerala. They were heavily persecuted — not only by the pagans in their host countries, but also by their fellow Jews; but they survived and grew in popularity among the common people. In the early fourth century CE, after a period of persecution under Diocletian, the pagan Roman Emperor — whose mother Helen had accepted a form of Christianity — proclaimed an edict of toleration. Bureaucratic sycophants of every shape and size then scrambled to join the new religious system, and to curry imperial favor to get into positions of authority.

    It was during the fourth century, that the Trinity doctrine you are so fond of came into being. You mention it often, as though it’s the cornerstone of your Christian understanding; and in this, your pagan roots are showing. For my part, I do not accept the Trinity; but of course, this makes me non-Christian, as I have already said. The reason for this is that the new Emperor, Constantine, while still very pagan and indeed the Pontifex Maximus, or chief pagan dignitary in the empire, convened a council to establish doctrine for the newly recognized religion. Christianity as YOU know it began at this point, and was formalized as what have come to be the Roman and Eastern churches.

    During the next century, the Roman Empire — which extended as far as what is now England — was overrun by barbarians. In 486 CE, the Kingdom of Soissons, a Roman remnant in N. France, was conquered by the Franks. Christianity at this point was fragmented by divisions caused by political intrigues among the politicized church leaders and codified in various councils: Monophysites in Egypt and the Near East, Nestorians in the Levant and Persia, Donatists in Tunisia (ruled by Arian Vandals), Pelagionists in Britain and Ireland, and Roman Catholics a submerged minority in Arian Goth-ruled Iberia and Italy. The Eastern Empire survived the invading barbarians, and its Catholic bishops (who were completely subservient to the Emperor) became independent of Rome. The Frankish leader, Clovis, accepted the Roman form of Catholicism prevalent among his subjects in Soissons, making his realm the political manifestation of that schism.

    Around 800 CE, Charlemagne (aka Karl der Gross) conquered Germany, Italy and all of Christian W. Europe except Britain and Ireland. Since his family eventually formed the basis for the royal houses of all Europe, including that of the English kings and queens who authorized the settling of America, our history is inextricably connected with him, hence with Soissons and the Empire, and of course, with Israel. While Continental Western Europe was settling into barbarian rule, England and E. Scotland were also invaded by Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians. Literacy became largely lost in Western Europe during this period, and was re-introduced there and in England by Irish and Scottish monks. Eventually, they abandoned their Pelagionist uniqeness in favor of the more efficiently organized Roman church.

    Throughout the history of Europe, Bible-believing groups tried to rise up but were violently put down by the Catholics: Arians, Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars, Albigensians and Hussites, to name some of the better-known. Their lack of success was due to the ignorance of the illiterate masses, who did not have direct access to the Bible but had to depend on the Catholic clergy for their understanding of the scriptures. This changed, with the invention of moveable type and the Gutenburg Bible. Reformation of the church was immediate and electric, coursing through Poland, Slovenia, Italy, France, Britain and Scandanavia.

    Britain became entwined with Continental Europe as never before during this period, especially among fundamentalist English dissenters known as Separatists, or Pilgrims, who found temporary refuge in the Netherlands before Establishing an English colony in what is now SE Massachusetts. They were joined in the 1630s by a massive influx of English Puritans in N Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Maine, who overspread into Connecticut, Long Island, Rhode Island, Martha’s Vineyard and Nantucket.

    While Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Scotland and Scandinavia settled into Protestant state religions, England continued to roil with reforms; and it was from this ferment that the northern part of what was to become the US was settled. In the relatively independent colonies, this tendency developed to the greatest extent. Roger Williams and his companions were banished to Rhode Island, where they founded the first colony with true freedom of worship. Meanwhile, Quakers, who were being persecuted and driven from colony to colony, took root in Nantucket. Then the Quaker, William Penn, established freedom of worship in the new colonies of New Jersey and Pennsylvania.

    Yes, Yamit, it was William Penn and his Quaker values that established the direction of religion in America. Foremost among these values, of course, was freedom of religion and the disestablishment of state religions. If you can’t see that, you’ve just got knots in your head for brains.

  22. I am an American, without question; and I don’t think you will even try to deny it.

    If America is what a majority say it is then you are neither a true American. You do meet all of the pejorative stereotypes most think of when describing Americans. Que pasa pendeja, el estúpido hombre!

    you’re saying you’re proud to be like me;

    Only AmericanEagle, might agree with you.

    America was built on Christian values, like it or not. I list my religion as “Others or None”; but I live by Christian values.

    Glad you left off The Judeo before the word Christian. Which Christians precepts do you reject to not being considered a regular Christian? Duh Faddah, Duh-Son? or Casper (the friendly ghost)? Any belief in a triune god makes you a normative Christian whether you admit it our not.

    even though my ancestors were Catholics and New Englanders


    I thought a mongrel like you was proud of all your millions of ancestors? Most not Americans?

    To be specific, I live by the primarily Quaker-based values of “General Americans”, even though my ancestors were Catholics and New Englanders. The Quakers believed that every individual had a spark of the Divine in himself, and could communicate directly with God and personally understand His word. That’s a Christian value of the Quaker variety; it goes against the values of the Puritans and Episcopalians, who believed one needed an ordained intermediary to properly explain God to them. There are millions of Jews in America who also hold similar values; and it is essential to being “American”, that one hold such values. It is the notion that each of us has a personal relationship and accountability before God, that allows us to accept one another in a “secular” society.

    So to be a real American one must hold to Quaker values? Cowardly pacifists?

    Warmonger America may reflect in deeds true Christian values but then those values couldn’t be yours?

    Is your daughter married to a chinaman and living in China a dual citizen of America and China?

  23. Bland

    You are THE confused dude. Frankly, you do not actually KNOW who you are.

    I believe Shy knows who he is but I find you are the one who is confused.

    Nothing wrong with holding dual-citizenship.

    Shy is proud to be an American and an Israeli.

    I often tell Caroline Glick she is a great American and a great Israeli.

    Without question you can be both.

  24. Shy Guy,

    You are one confused dude. Resent whatever you want. Frankly, either

    1. You do not actually KNOW who you are, or

    2. You know it, but don’t want to admit it.

    I am an American, without question; and I don’t think you will even try to deny it. I do not hold dual citizenship, and I don’t apportion my time between two countries. When you say you’re “proud to be an American”, you’re saying you’re proud to be like me; and I know full well that you’re anything but proud to be like me. America was built on Christian values, like it or not. I list my religion as “Others or None”; but I live by Christian values.

    To be specific, I live by the primarily Quaker-based values of “General Americans”, even though my ancestors were Catholics and New Englanders. The Quakers believed that every individual had a spark of the Divine in himself, and could communicate directly with God and personally understand His word. That’s a Christian value of the Quaker variety; it goes against the values of the Puritans and Episcopalians, who believed one needed an ordained intermediary to properly explain God to them. There are millions of Jews in America who also hold similar values; and it is essential to being “American”, that one hold such values. It is the notion that each of us has a personal relationship and accountability before God, that allows us to accept one another in a “secular” society.

    I don’t think you have these values, and that is why you live in Israel rather than the US. “Resent” this as much as you want; it remains the truth. What you are, is an American “wannabe”. Why you are, is beyond me. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be Israeli and Jewish.

  25. Israeli Jewish values. What ever made you think otherwise?

    However, I resent your assumption that being proud to be American has anything to do with living by christian values. And I say that as an American!

    (But I will confess to being a terible dancer)

  26. Shy,

    Stop your dancing around the issue. I’m not asking you what your citizenship is. I’m asking you who you ARE. You can’t be two things at the same time. Do you live by American Christian values? Or do you live by Israeli Jewish values? The two cultures both have ancient and deep roots. To which do you belong?

  27. Shy,

    You said in another post that you were “proud to be an American”. Are you Israeli? Or American? Which one do you wannabe?

  28. Bland, to set the record straight (again): I was born and raised in the USA. I moved to Israel almost 30 years ago, where I met my wife and we’ve raised our family together in Jerusalem.

    However, regarding the vague use of the term “safety”, in both the short and long term, as a Jew, I would feel very unsafe in Europe. I feel OK in Israel and fine in the US at present. However, the problem with American and Israeli politics are not exactly the same. America goofed big time by electing the most anti-American president ehvah! That can be rectified at the ballot box next election. It is up to Americans to chose what’s best for them.

    Here in Israel, we are stuck with a party system. Our choices are pathetic. Something drastic has to happen to introduce a new major player into the system that will pull Israel out of its 40 year stupor.

  29. Responding to this above:

    Hi, Arnold

    Dr. David lives in France; you and Shy Guy live in America.

    I know you live in Jerusalem, thats why I posted it.

  30. Wrong thread, Yonatan? B”H writing from my home in Jerusalem, the Jewish Nation’s eternal capital.

  31. Hi, Arnold

    Dr. David lives in France; you and Shy Guy live in America. What’s the difference between the two places? Yes, France is strictly second-rate, along with the UK. They have been given permission by Obama to play with their toys in Libya, but they’re not even able to defeat an Arab leader who’s pretty universally hated by his fellow Arabs. Of course, the Franco-British alliance is essentially THE strength of the EU fraction of NATO: Germany is even more of a powder puff than the French. So the US essentially runs NATO, and treats the Europeans like children. The US, in turn, is ruled by Obama and his cronies, who treat the American people as children. How is it, that you and Shy Guy feel more secure here than in Europe? Obama hates the Jews, viscerally; and he runs France AND the US. He pretty much runs Israel too, but there’s hope for them. SOMEDAY, maybe after six million more Jews die there, they might see the light; but the US will not see the light: We will see only Obama, and obey.

  32. This is exactly what happens to Jews who reside in a Jew-hating country such as France. Which means that it serves them right. As for the Jewish doctor who got sued by the Arab bastard who sued him. It serves him right two times over. First, for being stupid enough to call France his home. Secondly, for providing medical care to the Arab who repaid him by suing him. In any case, no Arab who has not converted to Judaism ever is likely to consider any Jew as other than his blood enemy. I would have let the bastard die on the operating table with no loss of conscience, while I went to a street cafe to sip an apertif or whatever.

    Any Jew reading this, who ever should have any inclination to treat these Arabs other than as blood enemies, is a fool or a scoundrel, depending on the circumstances of the incident.

    France as an international power has been nothing but history since May-June 1940. The Germans saw to that when the French Army collapsed under assault of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe in less than four weeks of battlefield combat. Their citizens can pretend to be a first-rank country, but that is nothing but false pretense.

    The same goes for the United Kingdom. Because no non-Moslem western country that free admits immigrants whose culture calls for destruction of western civilization can be characterized as having self-respect. The late-life escapades of “Princess” Diana with her dark-skinned Egyptian Moslem lover truly describes a nation in decay. I am glad the two of them died in that car crash in Paris.

    This all means that I about about as non-politically correct as it is possible to be. And I love every minute of it.

    Arnold Harris
    Mount Horeb WI