By Ted Belman
We have been discussing whether the love of evangelicals is a Trojan horse enabling them to proselytize. I asked Rabbi Skobac who leads Jews for Jews in our fight against Jews for Jesus. He says most definitely and promised to send me articles he has written.
This morning I got this email from Ellen Horowitz who is writing a book on the subject.
Here is the cover this month’s issue of Charisma Magazine – The cover story hails missionaries and messianics as heroes “for sharing the love of Jesus in Israel”. This specific issue celebrates Israel’s 60th anniversary.
The publisher of Charisma is Stephen Strang of Strang Communications
Strang is one of the Directors of CUFI (Pastor John Hagee’s Christians United For Israel)
He is the publisher of John Hagee’s book, In Defense of Israel, and David Brog’s book, Standing with Israel
He was recognized in Time Magazine as one of “The 25 Most Most Influential Evangelicals in America”
Stephen Strang is a signatory of the recent widely publicized World Evangelical Alliance statement endorsing efforts to evangelize the Jews (that means they want to convert us)
The Biggest irony is that while the current online edition of Charisma Magazine sports a “Come Celebrate Israel’s 60th” banner across the top of their website, the story below reeks of classical antisemitism (and I don’t use that word lightly).
Excerpt from an article written by the editor of Charisma:
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In the days of Jesus, rabbis observed a myriad of extra rules that were not in Scripture. Their legalistic code focused on what they could and could not touch. These guys invented the original version of the holier-than-thou religion. They stayed away from women, children, dead bodies, lepers, beggars, sinners, blood, shellfish, pigs and ‘especially’ people of other ethnic backgrounds. They didn’t want ‘unclean’ gentiles to corrupt them.
The Pharisees, especially, were obsessed with hygiene. They had a rule for everything from how to wash dishes to how to stay ceremonially clean after walking in the streets. That’s why they got upset when they saw that Jesus’ disciples didn’t follow the standard Jewish hand-washing ritual.
They asked Jesus: “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands??? You can almost hear their smug, nasal tone. Jesus? reply was blunt. He called His inquisitors hypocrites; then He chastised them for “teaching as doctrines the precepts of men” (Mark 7:5-7, NASB)…
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.
[note: Rabbi Riskin will be joining Stephen Strang, John Hagee and Jews for Jesus Jay Sekulow at the United Nations for a prayer banquet to celebrate Israel’s 60th)
I wrote this paper many years ago.
The Historical Jesus.
There is a difference between been anti something for good reason and being anti something for no good reason. If a person is informed about Romabn Catholic history or Islamic idealogy and decides to be against them that no prejudice or racism. But to be anti-black because of the colour of skin, that’s unacceptable and racism.
Ted; you are perfectly correct. Many people are anti- Catholic and anti- Muslim and it is fully within their rights to be so. Same can be said for anti-blacks and anti- gays.However there are some who might dispute that contention. What is beyond dispute is the perfectly legitimate, unanamously agreed upon,and G-d given right to be …….anti-lawyers.
Jesus’ gospel was made up and given to the pagans of Europe. I have no problem letting them keep it there. It certainly moved them up a few notches way back then.
Given Isaiah53’s unmitigated gall and arrogance, I doubt Jesus would count him/her as one worthy to preach his gospel to the world.
That’s a fair answer to HP’s last point.
But I would suggest comprehending his first point. Even if Evengalicals would never dream of attempting to convert not even a single Jew on this planet, their proclaimed beliefs of employing Israel and the Jews to bring about their apocalyptic vision of the end of days is dangerous for us all.
Now, back to reality. Combine their double alterior motivation of prophetic lunacy with their zeal to convert Jews, and you really have to ask if people here understand what the word “friend” means in its simplest sense.
Ted, correction: last word should have been “god”, as in Pe’or.
Because you say so? Yes, let’s just ignore everything else we’re documenting and seeing being put into practice.
The only question I have about you is whether you’re an ostrich or one of them?
No. It is called G-d’s law. You have willingly cut yourself off from the people of Israel, or perhaps circumstances not in your voluntary control (childhood upbringing?) have led to your defacto disassociation of Klal Yisrael. You might be a happy romp-around person in this world but your Neshama is already going through hell as you waltz around with your idolotrous proclamations.
Buh-bye. Your misguided emotional babble has been heard before.
Christ was a dead Jew on a stick. Get over it.
Wanna play math? What are the chances of the battered nation of Israel surviving throughout its 4000 year history and the prophecies of the return of the Nation to the land of Israel coming true. These are the kind of silly games your faith is based on? Puh-lease!
Wanna play math again? How can Israel ever face the threat of the Islamic world? We are doomed. Must be. Do the math. You said so.
On the contrary. G-d is testing us. Has been for ages. We’re not doing too well, in case you wanted to know. Sadly, you yourself are a mjor part of our problems.
Thank you for confirming what some of us have been warning all the time: this “friendship” is a scheme with strings attached.
Ted, are you catching on? Bill, this is mainstream thinking, with intense efforts on the part of the major leaguers like CUFI to keep their feelings under cover. These are not “friends”. You would never call a person whose main desire of becoming acquainted with you was to force you to be something which you aren’t and never should be.
Why not Budha? How about Allah, especially if you “do the math”? Your arguments are childishly emotional and unconvincing. What does that say about your willingness to abandon your forefather’s people for a pie in the sky magic beans savior ideology? Our sympathies.
Christianity: the religion of plagiarized Torah and Nach verses.
Hosannah the Highest! (Anyone who knows the least of what this has to do with Christian ignorance will have a small laugh here).
BTW, your forum name, Isaiah 53, shows you to be the born sucker you make yourself appear as in your post. For those of you who don’t know, Christians have twisted and turned the Tanach’s verses into any shape or size as long as they can make it sound like the Torah and Prophets were talking about their religion from time immemorial. The methods used are ignorance, intentional mistranslation and quoting out of context. Chapter 53 of Isaiah is one of their favorites. They cling to it as if it was the stranded rope holding them up off a mountain ledge. For if they let go, they would indeed fall down and their silly falseties would be shattered to bits.
Google “isaiah 53” at Jews for Judaism to see the emptiness which Christian missionairies use to connive (there’s that word again!) and mislead ignorant Jews into thinking that there’s any justifications to their claims.
Back in Egypt, the powers of justice in heaven argued “these (the Egyptians) are idol worshippers and these (the children of Israel) are idol worshippers”, and therefore why should Israel be saved at the Yam Suf, while the Egyptians were to be punished with a violent destruction. It wasn’t easy for G-d to defend His own nation then. It’s deja vu all over again.
With all that I’ve said, Mr. “Isaiah 53”, you are rejected because your beliefs are in 100% contradictions to the foundations of Hashem and his Torah. I’m not a Chabadnik at all but I recommend you and everyone else here watch this video clip of the late Lubavitcher Rebbe.
It is never too late to do Teshuva. When you’re ready to come back home, you will be welcome with open arms.
HP
Read the post carefully. Many people are anti-Catholic. Many people are anti-Islam. That is their right.
Isaiah
I couldn’t care less about your beliefs or the “watchman of Israel” I have absolutely no respect for weak Jews like you who buy into the belief of a virgin birth and Jesus as G-d.
Forget the question of attempting to convert Jews for a minute, and focus on the theological position of the evangelicals vis a vis the Jews.
All evangelicals subscribe to the premise of the great Apocalyptic War to take place in the middle east. It is predicted that Israel will fight the great fight against the forces of darkness in the final battle to end all battles. Israel is to emerge victorious and then we will have the second coming of Christ.
All non Christians including the Jews will be given the delightful option of accepting Christ or burning in hell.The evangelicals get an orgasmic joy in anticipating that great long awaited even.
If you like this scenario, accept Rev. Hagee’s embrace. His acts are that of a fight promoter who is backing one participant, hoping for the victory of that participant( Israel).Which is great, except for that 10th round.
Incidently, Rev. Hagee is as fervently anti-Catholic as Rev. Wright is anti-white. These Revs. are hardly reverent.
I am a Messianic Jew from a combination of Families whose ancestors escaped death in Poland and Russia. Many others of our family will never see freedom here in the USA. I am rejected by my Jewish brothers because I am Messianic. Isn’t that called religious bigotry? I love my people and so I’m willing to risk being rejected again. I will not risk silence for anyone.
Just consider this: How many Christians are there? I ask any Jew who understands the mathematics of chance, could that many people be fooled for such a long time about who the Christ is?
I offer the ancient warning to you who are willing to put your puny minds to fight against those who come to you to aid and support you in your time of need. Be careful; perchance you fight against GOD! Remember the old shoe concerning Nazi Germany; “When they came for the Catholics we said nothing because frankly who cared? When they came for the protestants we said nothing because of our deep distrust of those people. When they came for us there was no one to say anything.”
We’re saying something now and you are complaining? God has given us the great mandate: Go thou into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to all who will hear. If you don’t want to be a Christian fine. Put your fingers in your ears, stay home and twiddle your toes, but stay out of the doorway and don’t block others from entry. You certainly aren’t the creator of the universe so who do you think you are?
Could be that some may realize the truth of who this Christ is.
Ted; if you don’t like what I’m saying then block my comment but you will answer to the watchman of Israel who niether slumbers nor sleeps.
The time for gameplaying is over. It is time to choose which side you are on. as for me and my house: WE WILL SERVE THE LORD. If I can show another Jew the truth I will. I have found the Messiah and he calls to his children to come. Jesus is GOD.
surak
I don”t see your point, I am only quoting Torah, Now are you saying some old sage is more relevant than Torah. He has his opinion and in Talmud I will give you a hundred opposing opinions. I am taking literal Law and principles and Talmud never violates principle. If I go to a Muslim Land I am expected to obey their laws
Gentiles are expected to obey ours, we have our penalties for violating our laws they have theirs.
Notice the difference between convert and stranger. We have little obligations re: strangers meaning foreigners not converts or those accepting 7 Noahide laws. Trying to convert Jews in the Land of Israel is punishable by death according to Torah. I didn’t make this up it is a commandment or Law. As I said Judaism is not a tolerant religion if it is too much for you try Hari Krishna or Zen.
Equality under the Law: “There shall be One Law for you, it shall be for proselyte and native alike, for I, Hashem, Am your Judge.” (Leviticus 24:22).
One Teaching for all: “When a proselyte dwells with you or one who is among you throughout your generations and he shall prepare a fire-offering, a satisfying aroma to Hashem–as you, so shall he do. For the congregation–the same Decree shall be for you and for the proselyte who dwells, an Eternal Decree for your generations; like you like the proselyte shall it be before Hashem. One Teaching and One Judgement shall be for you and for the proselyte who dwells among you.” (Numbers 15:14-16). “…If one person sins unintentionally, he shall offer a she-goat within its first year as a sin-offering. The Kohen shall atone for the erring person when he sins unintentionally before Hashem, to atone for him; and it shall be Forgiven him. The native among the children of Israel and the proselyte who dwells among them–there shall be One Teaching for them, for one who does unintentionally.” (Numbers 15:27-29). As there would be One Teaching for one who does intentionally; although for a group of foreigners who dwell in Israel and rebel against the government and the Laws of G-d, it’s better that they be expelled than that they suffer death, for they don’t consider themselves a part of Israel.
Integrity of Israel: “If you encounter an ox of your enemy or his donkey wandering, you shall return it to him repeatedly. If you see the donkey of someone you hate crouching under its burden, would you refrain from helping him?–you shall help repeatedly with him.” (Exodus 23:4-5). Amongst brothers, you have no right to sin against someone you hate, for you would be guilty. Even with an enemy, when you are not at war, you should return his lost item, lest you become a thief, and Israel would be lowered before the nations. Israel does not fight wars to pillage its enemies–such is not the role of G-d’s people. Israel will defeat its enemies for the sake of Justice, and initiate preemptive attacks for defense and retaliation.
Hagee is a prince. The Christian Zionists are our friends and this has little to nothing to do with proselytization.
David Brog is Hagee’s right-hand man. In Brog’s book, “Standing With Israel”, he raves about the Exobus Project.
But others detect a problem:
These are not our friends. They are a different type of enemy from the Muslims but they are never the less our enemies, and deceiving ones at that. Caroline Glick is right about the general rule that friends should be treated as such. However, it would seem that Caroline is ignorant of how even the few friends we think we have, want to destroy us in other ways.
Very strongly suggest that you read Standing for Israel by David Brog. He explains why the Christian Zionists are our friends and outlines how their friendhip has been crucial to Israel in the past, beginning with the crucial help that Hertzl required. As Caroline Glick said two nights ago – we should be good friends with our friends and an effective enemy to our enemies. That way we will have fewer enemies and more friends. Our enemies are the Islamists. Our friends are the Evangelists.
There are also people who make observations based on the Talmud who take the Talmud’s ideas and stretch them too far.
Bedikat Chametz is a Rabbinic obligation. Torah law is more lenient in that either Bitul Chametz or Biur Chametz alone is sufficient. So the searching for Chametz itself is actually a Rabbinic stringency. Besides, where is this warning of futility in the Mishnah? What specific Mishnah are you referring to?
Va’Chai Bahem is itself a Torah obligation. Nevertheless, one has to lay down his life in order not to violate laws of sexual transgressions, murder and idol worship. Bit we also learn out from Va’Chai Bahem that if someone threatens you to transgress any of the other 610 Torah commandments with consequences other than death (e.g., “violate Shabbat or I’ll destroy your home”), you must NOT violate any Torah commandment under such circumstances.
Deriving any other essential Halachic conclusions from either of the above cases you mentioned seems to be in itself a stretch which has no sanction of approval, Torah or Rabbinic, in which case, these actually contradict the claim you were trying to make, doesn’t it?
These are bridges we’ll have to cross when we get there and, yes, a certain pragmatism will have to be taken into account. All I can tell you is that first stages will involve the illegaility of missionarizing and “messianic” congregations and the deportation of their leaders.
Incidentally, the Talmud states that when the days of Mashiach come and the entire world will be worshiping the One Creator of the universe, houses of idol worship will not be destroyed but will be used for correct worship. Prior to such a time, however, what needs to be done in Eretz Yisrael itself is much more complex.
BTW, while Islam is a vile totalitarian religious system of extreme cruelty, it is not idol worship.
Indeed Rome is the last of the 4 major empires that will fall at the end of days. Those days will come. In any case, we are talking about the land of Israel, not the rest of the world.
Ahmen Ve’Ahmen! Highest priority is to repair ourselves.
Good evening, and Yom Ha-Atz’ma’uth Tov! (My idiosyncratic transliteration.)
I tend to mostly agree with the worldviews of Tar Yag (no, it’s not Yar Tag – and yes, I get it), yamit82 (think I get that too), and Shy Guy. Only one thing in any of their posts concerns me – the last by yamit82, #28. I want to be careful about pushing the quest for purity too far. That leads to neurosis, or obsessive-compulsive disorder in daily life; and the jihadists have shown us what it can lead to in religious life.
There are wise observations in the Tal’mud about taking a good idea too far. For example, Mish’nah tractate Pesachiym warns us of the futility of an endless search for a perfectly chametz-free home. Elsewhere, we are told that (citing the Torah) we are to “live by the commandments” – which implies violating them (with rare well-known exceptions) in order to save a life.
Nothing in my post should be taken as the tiniest bit of sympathy for the missionaries. They have 2 billion people, dozens of countries, and a libelous scripture, containing the seeds of incitement to genocide and jihad. Let our tiny remnant be in peace, OK?
As a practical matter, I’m not sure how one uproots avodah zarah from the land. Do the commenters propose to bulldoze Israeli churches and mosques? If Christianity could survive the Roman Empire and the crucifixion of its martyrs, they can certainly survive the Israeli government. It would be better to revise the Law of Return, and get the haredi men to stop some of the bizarre Taliban-like practices that have been reported recently. I agree that the level of Yiddishkeit could stand to be raised in Eretz Yis’ra’eil and in exile. But we can do a far, far better job in the areas of derekh eretz, g’miluth chasadiym, sh’mirath lashon, ahavath chesed, etc.
Narvey a lesson in Judaism as it pertains to laws in the land of Israel. This is halacha in its purist form.
Islam is relatively tolerant. It accepts Christians at least as dhimmi.
Shy Guy good work sanders I know for many years he used to be here in Israel as a Hebrew teacher and used his position to convert Jews, He was a paster later of a big mega church in Ca. Then he saw the light and converted to Judaism here and is a voice of sanity so listen to what he has to say he knows them intimately.R. Skobac has said essentially what I have. I have said that if Hitler really wanted to rid the world of Jews all he had to do was to love them. Ellen Horowitz also backs me up from a Jewish Israeli pointof view and she also backs me up in much of what I have said. The big problem is that even if there were christians who did not have dual agenda re: jews and truely should be welcomed as friends how can we really know if they hide it and packageit in insidious formats? I would rather reject out of hand rather than take a chance. If we are wrong the fallout and harm to us will far outweigh any benefit.
Ted, that was Gavriel Sanders in 2002.
This is Gavriel Sanders in 2008.
Dots, Bill, dots.
Christian Support for Israel: Wield it or waste it.
Rabbi Skobac wrote to say
Email from friend Ellen Horowitz who is writing a book on the subject.
This responds to Shy Guy, Yar Tag and Yamit.
We have different debating styles and different approaches to assembling and assessing the facts and we also differ in how we draw what conclusions we can from those facts.
Shy Guy, on re-reading your posts, if find you are right I misquoted you by attributing your caustic accusation that with the exception of a rare few, the main Evangelical leaders are conniving liars as your making that accusation against all Evangelical Christians.
That said, does that justify you accusing me of lying? You think it does and I say no. Your comments however leave me in some doubt as to exactly where you stand vis a vis efforts by various Christian factions and individual Christians to support Israel and befriend Jews.
Here I thought Yar Tag that I was at the very least a reasonable facsimile of an “authentic Jew”. I asked you a serious question Yar Tag and you chose to answer with an answer that was no answer at all, but rather an emotional outburst.
So what is your answer?
As for your blanket characterization of Christianity as being an absurd religion, can I take it that you are anti-Christianity and with only rare exceptions, anti-Christian as regards individual Christians?
If not, just how do you see Christianity and Christians?
Yamit, your statement, “Based on our history its up to Christians to prove their support of Israel” sounds fair enough, but I have concluded from your reasoning leading up to that statement that you do have deep and bitter resentments, even anger against virtually all Christians and thus you have set the bar impossibly high for Christians to ever convince you of their good intentions.
Your statement “I could care less what any Christian Thinks” preceding your above quoted words, further reveals your antipathy towards virtually all Christians.
I disagree with your view Yamit in a number of respects.
I do care very much about what Christians think, both their good and bad thoughts. As regards their good thoughts I believe the opportunity should be taken to improve on those good thoughts to achieve and even better the relationship between Christians and Jews based on mutual tolerance and respect so as to to win them over even more as friends of Jews and Israel and to join with Jews in reaching out to those Christians with bad thoughts and getting them to change.
Let me ask all of you as regards Christian support and friendship extended towards Jews and Israel:
1. (a) Do you reject that support out of hand which comes from those Christians who seek to currently prosletyze Jews?
(b) Do you see any benefit to accept their support while at the same time make efforts to turn them away from acting upon their mission?
(c) Should such support be accepted while Jews and Israel make a concerted effort to ensure that Jews resist efforts by these Christians to convert them and at the same time for Jews to express their appreciation for all the friendship and help and use that opportuntiy to even further solidify a good and friendly relationship with these people?
2. (a) Do you reject that support out of hand which comes from those Christians who give that friendship and support because they believe that their efforts are for the purpose of putting conditions in place for the second coming at which time Jews will then accept Jesus?
(b) What does it matter to you that these Christians are betting their faith will be proven justified by some future event?
(c) Does it not behoove Jews and Israel to make every effort to gratefully express their appreciation with these Christians and do all they can to strengthen the bonds of mutual understanding, respect and tolerance for each other?
I look forward to your answers.
You’re lying again. Don’t quote me out of context. Here’s a paste of exactly what I previously posted:
Do I have to spell out for you where you blundered in your accusations against me? When I said “they’re all conniving liars”, I was referring to the immediate prior sentence, not to my first sentence prior to that. Comprende?
I called a spade a spade. You have done nothing but accuse me personally of things I never said nor ideas I don’t believe in. You assume you know me when you don’t. You took a gamble and you blew it. Fess up.
But I didn’t.
Bill,
a christian himself could not be a more fervent defender of this absurd religion than you are.
You asked me what is an authentic Jew. Well it is the exact opposite of you.
Narvey I second Shy Guy and I concluded this way:
Shy guy you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
I was writing and posting my #15 while you posted #13. I thus did not see your #13. Not that it changes things all that much, unless you want to elaborate on just what significance that has for you and how you reconcile that statement in #13 with your comment that all Evangelical Christians, with rare exceptions to be counted on one hand, are all conniving liars.
In calling me a liar, you make my point at just how filled with mistrust and suspicion you are for even Jews like me who do not see things quite as you see them and thus instead of countering what I have said with reason, you resort to hostile angry name calling.
You are a fool Shy Guy if you take what I said as a ringing endorsement of all Evangelical Christians.
In any event, thanks Shy Guy for making my point about your antipathy towards Christians and towards Jews like me who disagree with you.
Now you are the liar. Read what I posted in comment #13.
You’re lying again, since I do recognize that transformation.
Excluding the links such as the ones from Jews For Judaism (what do they know, right, Bill?), most all the other links presented were from the Evangelical sites themselves or verbatim quotes of their representives. Live with it.
DOT
DOT
DOT
There are terrible things happening in Israel now. This is one of them. It stopped being trivial a long time ago.
Yamit and Shy Guy exemplify Jews with such deep and bitter resentment, if not hatred of Christians because of Christian persecution of Jews in times past that they appear to despise and are suspicious of virtually all Christians’ intentions regards Jews and Israel, including those who make tremendous efforts to support Jews and Israel.
Shy Guy claims all Evangelical Christians, with rare exceptions to be counted on one hand, are all conniving liars.
Yamit says:
Jews exemplified by Shy Guy and Yamit fail to recognize that Christianity, especially since the Holocaust has been undergoing a transformation to purge itself of its anti-semitism. That transformation amongst certain Christian factions and sects still has a long way to go, but other Christian factions and sects have come a very long way in that regard and for a very great many individual Christians, they have cleansed themselves of any antisemitism.
The Catholic Church in 1968, adopted their Nostra Aetata which sought to change Christian perception of Jews. It did not go nearly far enough, but for the Catholic Church, so mired in strict dogma and tradition that it amounted to a quantum leap.
Could Jews have even imagined at the close of WWII, a sect of Christianity such as the Evangelical Christians making such a strong stand in support of Israel and extending such a warm hand of friendship and support to Jews worldwide?
It’s not perfect of course, because some Evangelical Christians in their open support and love of Israel and Jews combine that with their openly declared mission to fulfill their religious duty to try to convert Jews now.
Other Evangelical factions link their love and support of Israel and Jews to the need to help create the conditions necessary for the second coming of Jesus at which time they believe Jews will accept Jesus as their saviour.
Still for many other Christians, regardless of sect and who are devoted in varying degrees to their faith, including recognizing as part of their faith that they may have a religious duty to try to have Jews accept Jesus, do not act on that duty.
That is not so strange given that a very great many Jews with faith in Judaism, while recognizing all the tenets of their faith, do not observe all those tenets. Rather, with a strong sense of Jewish identity, they choose what Judaic tenets to follow in their own lives and in observance of their faith and what tenets to ignore and to not be a factor at all in their thinking and their lives.
The level of mistrust and suspicion of Christianity and virtually all Christians that is revealed in the words of Yamit and Shy Guy, extends towards Jews such as myself who do not cast the net of mistrust and suspicion of Christians as wide as they, who believes Jews and Israel should be sincerely grateful for the support a great many Christians give Jews and Israel, who believes Jews should reach back to these Christians in sincere friendship and who believes that as regards those Christians who seek to actively convert Jews today, Jews should be actively encouraged to refuse their efforts by saying no, politely, but firmly.
Thanks for that link, Shy Guy. I wasn’t aware of it. In fact I never understood how significant the problem was.
Just so that my general opinion is clear, I posted the following regarding Rabbi Kravitz’s article, which I linked to above:
Ted, pay attention to the facts Mrs. Horowitz is pointing out and not to Narvey’s wishful thinking. It doesn’t take much to smell the rats in CUFI.
Remember Ted when you quoted the verse from John ,“The truth shall set you free”? Now is the time.
BTW, Ted, you didn’t have to write this article. Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz, of Jews for Judaism, already did it for you last year: Evangelicals: Knights in Shining Armor or Trojan Horse? Read carefully what Hagee’s direct spokesman says.
I am not pointing an accusing finger at the millions of individuals who make up the pro-Israel Evangelical (do you know the meaning of the term?) world. I’m referring to the main EV organizations and their leaders, like the Hagees and the Bells. They’re all conniving liars, with rare exception (there are but they can be counted on one hand).
Narvey / I believe you have been had! The Jews believed the Germans also that they were taking them to work camps and would be treated humanely. Hagee found himself a hook for commercial purposes Zionism! He suckered a lot of Jews as to his sincerity dropped a few million here and there and has bought his way into Some Jews trust by saying in public forums and in print what would endear him to some Jews and financial support to the likes of BB and other right wing politicos in Israel. As Kim Hartveld said above what’s all the fuss, free speech strength of conviction should protect Jews and if they can coerce, bribe, lie and twist truth so be it it is what they do, what they are about. You don’t see them in Saudi Arabia or Yemem They might last an hour before they were lynched or beheaded. Christians consider most non Jews in the world as pagan but no great theological prize if they were converted but they spend hundreds of millions to target Jews. I wonder why? You are right Buddhism, and Zen have a much stronger pull on Jews, there are a hundred thousand or more of us Jews running around India all doped up seeking Gurus and psychedelic truths. Heck if Jews wanted a watered down version of Judaism they can stay in the reformed or conservative Judaism, they are flexible and make no demands that are difficult to meet. The Christians in all fairness do make some conversions but based on how much they invest in time energy and financial resources we can bankrupt them in a hundred years if you consider how many Jews do convert, stay converted re: how many hundreds of millions they spend for such small results. between the last 2 censuses in the USA Jews have lost 400,000 to assimilation, conversions and other factors, so every Jew lost is a tragedy. Now Kim, you can do whatever you want outside of Israel but when you enter my country, my domain you either play by our rules and laws or if I or some like me ascend to political power here I will Jail you and throw away the key and I could care less what any Christian Thinks. There is no historical reason why I should believe your good intentions or give a dam if you support me here or not. You want to support go ahead but a thank you from us is presumptuous. Based on our history its up to Christians to prove their support of Israel not we to accept without prejudice. I will say one thing that if we Jews ever decided to actively seek converts you Christians wouldn’t stand a chance, but unlike you that’s not what we are about.
You will never agree but Tar Yags Historical overview is supported by historical fact. Not biblical fantasy; your Bible not mine.
TarYag: Your comments to:
“The sword [dedicated] to the Lord is filled with blood…. for [there is] sacrifice to the Lord in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Edom.” Isaiah 34:6
Most rabbis divested from God. Their God is a subordinate who must be content with whatever attention is paid him. He is not expected to have any influence on current affairs, thus not feared. Had the rabbis feared God, they would follow his precepts, not government instructions. Why the rabbis did not call on the Jews to fight the government over the destruction of Gush Katif? Because the rabbis don’t see the commandment to conquer Canaan or establish a Jewish state as binding. They are skeptical about that ancient fellow, Joshua bin Nun who conquered the land. Maybe he received a commandment; they didn’t. Rabbis demand miracles, such as supernatural Messiah because they don’t believe the words of Torah. The commandments do not persuade them; rabbis know how readily the Talmud twists the commandments. De facto, Torah takes for them distant second place after the sages – whom they also reinterpret at will. Had the rabbis believed that the commandments are divine and the words passed to us intact – why demand a Messiah? But they don’t believe that the commandments are miracles – and demand that miracle happen before their eyes. God, however, tend to perform miracles without violating the laws of nature. Every miracle can be explained away. Pundits explain persuasively how the Red Sea parted naturally. Jewish survival in Holocaust is attributed to chance, and Israel’s victories against behemoth Arab armies – to tactical superiority.
Meir Kahane conformed to the profile of messiah as close as one can imagine: a genius, charismatic leader, a man of religion and war, suffering, humiliated, condemned to death by Jewish leaders, and murdered by Edomite Arab. Talmudic rabbis called the Romans Edomites, too. If Messiah comes and is recognized, would the Jews follow him? The case is far from theoretical. Scores of Chabadniks consider the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Messiah. In clear violation of the commandment that prohibits images, they put the Rebbe’s photo in homes and offices, and revere him. They gather at his grave to ask for blessings and intercession. But Chabadniks ignore the Rebbe’s major injunction against ceding any part of the Land of Israel. Perhaps they consider the Rebbe a spiritual leader, not worthy consulting in earthly matters? That’s not so. Jews cheered Sharon’s, Netanyahu’s and other politicians’ visits to the Rebbe. Sharon specifically sought the Rebbe’s help against Shamir’s plan of elections in Palestine. Chabadniks – presumably ready to die on stakes rather than forfeit their religion – were afraid to fight the renegade government over the Gush Katif destruction.
Chabad leaders vociferously condemned the flock in Kfar Chabad who voted for Baruch Marzel and his program of holding the Jewish land and expelling the Arab enemies. The leaders knew they act contrary to the Rebbe’s teaching and invented a flimsy pretext: Chabadniks shouldn’t vote for Marzel because he won’t pass electoral barrier and their votes will be lost. As if the votes are not lost on Shas and similar quasi-religious outfits committed to cooperation with the government – in return for money and promotion. Chabad leaders could have helped Marzel to pass the electoral barrier instead of campaigning against him.
Judaism is a religion of deeds. There is no gap between earthly and spiritual things. A religion of practical purity is hard, indeed. Religious Jews invented a parallel life. Judaism remains for them a religion of deeds – but of insignificant deeds, rites unrelated to real life. They tear toilet paper in advance of Sabbath and observe absurd rites without slightest basis in the Torah – but expunged God from practical matters. They disregarded the reformer’s warning, “Hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matter of the law: justice and mercy, and faith.” They followed his wrong advice, “Give therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
In Judaism, even the land we live in is God’s; nothing belongs to petty caesars from Israeli government.
Yar Tag, what is your definition of an “authentic Jew”?
As for your saying I am trying to censure these issues systematically, that is not so at all. I have no idea what you mean by your statement that my methodology explains my affinity with Christians.
Please consider my post #8 above which explains my views on the issue of raising for discussion with Christians, issues surrounding the belief held by some Christians that they have a religious duty to try to convert Jews to Christianity now as opposed to the belief of other Christians that any such activity is reserved for the second coming of Jesus at some unknown future time.
If you disagree with my views, please do let me know why.
Ted, I maintain my view and cannot go along with your explanation in post # 5.
I am well aware that some Christians, be they Evangelical or otherwise, believe they have a religious duty to proslytize now and in particular to direct their efforts to convert Jews now, as opposed to when the time is right with the fulfillment of Christian prophecy. That Christian thinking is evident in the statement by the World Evangelical Alliance.
I am as troubled by this thinking as you are. I am however unaware of any reported statistical evidence as to just how successful these Christians are at gaining Jewish converts. I suspect their success is not that great.
What seems to be implied in the concerns raised by you and a number of others on this point is that Jews are particularly vulnerable to such Christian efforts. I do not hold to that view. Jews are perfectly capable of saying thanks, but no thanks. I suspect that world Jewry loses far more Jews through assimilation then is lost through the efforts of these Christian prosletyzers.
I remain nonetheless concerned about this issue, because with so few Jews in the world, numbering by last account to be between 13 – 14 million, any loss in number of Jews to the world Jewish community due to Christian prosletyzing, is significant.
That said however, the point I have made is that not all Christians believe it is their religious duty to convert Jews now.
Regardless that Stephen Strang, has the view that prosletyzing and converting Jews is a religious duty to be exercised now and that he sits on the Board of Directors of CUFI, there is no evidence that I am aware of, that either Pastor Hagee or CUFI hold that view.
All the evidence I have thus far read, points to the belief of Pastor Hagee and CUFI, being that Jews will only turn to accept Jesus and Christianity at the time of Jesus’ second coming. In order for that prophecy in which they believe to be fulfilled, the Jews must be in Israel and so Pastor Hagee, CUFI and other Christians of like mind are doing all they can to ensure the conditions necessary for the second coming are in place.
While Pastor Hagee and CUFI may support Jews and Israel with the ulterior motive in mind that they must do so in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled some time in the future, there is no evidence of any ulterior motive on their part that they seek to convert Jews now.
For them the conversion of Jews would be coincident with the second coming of Jesus and it would be the Jews who would voluntarily in such case, recognize Jesus as the Messiah and accept him as such and as their saviour. As I understand it, Jews would not have to be converted at that time, for the second coming of Jesus would itself be enough to convince Jews to accept Jesus.
The friendship and support that Pastor Hagee, CUFI and a great many millions of Christians who are of like mind, give to Jews and Israel, is in keeping with their own sense of religious duty and destiny that necessitates the stage being set for the prophecy of the second coming to be realized at some uncertain future time.
Given that, if you want to raise for discussion the issue that some Christians do seek out of religious duty to now actively try to convert Jews, I have no problem with that.
I do however have a problem when you raise questions and suspicions as to the sincerity and integrity of Pastor Hagee, CUFI and any other Christians or Christian organizations, who have not given you any reason to believe they share any part of the thinking of those Christians who now actively seek to convert Jews to Christianity.
In your explanation Ted in post #5 you state:
Because your article calls the sincerity and integrity of Pastor Hagee and CUFI into question, when there is no evidence to support the question you chose as your title, “Could Hagee’s embrace be a trojan horse?” , you have generally denigrated them.
I have no difficulty with the idea of raising for discussion with Christians the fact that some Christians do believe it is their religious duty to actively seek to convert Jews to Christianity, now as opposed to some future indeterminate time.
In fact I believe such discussion should be encouraged with both those Christians who so believe and those, such as Pastor Hagee and CUFI who don’t.
The purpose of such discussion with the likes of Pastor Hagee and CUFI, would at least in part be to encourage and enlist their co-operation in speaking to those Christian factions that do believe in trying to convert Jews now and trying to get them to cease and desist in doing so.
It is important however, and not for the sake of political correctness or obsequious courtesy, that in seeking dialogue with the likes of Pastor Hagee and CUFI on Jewish concerns with the efforts of some Christians to be actively engaged in trying to convert Jews now, to make clear that you approach them for dialogue not because they so believe, but because you are seeking their support in trying to stop or at least curb those Christians who do believe it is a religious duty to actively convert Jews now to Christianity.
Ted,
you seem to think that the point of Judaism and christianity is simply a question of personal affinity and/or tradition, i.e. a question of belief but not something that can really be discussed and much less proven. And mutual respect means in this perspective to avoid dicsussions.
However, we Jews distinguish ourselves from christians insofar as we believe only in what can be proven and nothing else. While the perfect christian is discribed in their own scriptures as a person which is “poor in spirit”, the Jewish Bible discribes the Jewish people as “stiffnecked” which means that we do not believe without solid proofs. It is characteristic that the christians see the attribute “stiffnecked” as pejorative! In reality it is a compliment.
And now what is real respect between Jews and non-Jews from our Jewish perspective? Respect means to discuss with each other on the basis of voluntariness and rational arguments, without emotional indoctrination or financial (or other) influance.
Now have a look on Hagee. What is his approach? It is the approach of financial and emotional influance. And this is a “herald” of proselytising.
And therefore a Jew does not need to indoctrinise other people since our belief is based on facts and not on myths. But christians cannot live without indoctrinising.
Bill, you did not answer to a single of my arguments. Instaed you are suggesting to Ted to censure these issues systematically. This methodology explains your affinity with christians.
You asked me if I ever met a christian. The answer is yes and I had many discussions with them. But the more significant question is: have you ever met an authentic Jew?
Bill as you know I have avoided any posts that denigrate Christianity or Christians. This article does neither . It makes the charge that they are in fact missionizing and I am against it.. I don’t want to avoid such an important issue for fear of alienation. We can be honest between friends.
Now I ask you Bill, what is the difference between the Christian belief that they have the true religion and therefore implying that Judaism doesn’t yet see the light and Jews criticizing Christianity for being a false religion.
I believe that people can believe what they want but they shouldn’t impose those beliefs on others by force or missionizing. Now Christians say they are just exercising their right of free speech and they are entitled to sell anything but hatred. And that’s true.
But if they want to be our friends they should respect us. Missionizing is an act of disrespect. Furthermore its like the cause of action “alienation of affection” or the tort of inducing someone to break a contract.
Our friends would recognize that Jews are small in number and are struggling to survive as a people. As friends they should support our efforts, not undermine them.
Is the article quoted not truly antisemitic.
I have sent this post to Juda Englemeyer the PR guy for CUFI, David Brog and Pastor Hagee. I also sent it to my friend Donna Holbrooke who is a key person in the ICEJ. We’ll see what they say.
Ted, I am not pleased that you have posted this lead article to Israpundit which only serves to raise questions and suspicions about the sincerity and integrity of the most ardent Christian friends and supporters of Jews and Israel.
Not only are you giving anti-Christian commenters an opportunity to spew their anti-Christian theories, some of which are purely venemous, you are encouraging them to do so.
By so doing you are very seriously risking this blog coming to be defined as an anti-Christian blog. If that happens, Israpundit’s credibility in the blogosphere can only suffer.
Yar Tag, you seem to be displaying the same intellectual arrogance as Christians or Muslims who have never met a Jew, be they antisemites or not, but still believe they know from secondary and indirect sources, all about Jews and do not hesitate to express their views in that regard.
In this case, you have spoken in anouther post of only assimilated Jews being taken in by Evangelical Christians apparent unequivocal support of Jews and Israel, which you claim is not at all what it appears to be.
You claim some special ability, not possessed by diaspora Jewry to see through what you call Evangelical Christians transparent strategies which to you means seeking, though appearing to support Israel to get close enough to Jews to try to convert them.
You have mixed a few historical references, which may or may not be true or a complete picture with your own psychobabble to come up with your theories that attack the sincerity of all Christians in their support of Israel.
Have you ever met or had any meaningful relationship with any Christian or Jew whose thinking is not aligned with your own? Somehow, I frankly doubt it.
1. a) The christian religion was born from a former Jewish sect which was at risk to disappear after the death of its leader. Therefore, the selfproclamed successor of the sect’s dead leader, paulus, decided to transform the Jewish sect into a global religion and to proselytise among the nations of roman-hellenistic culture. But he has to confront a double problem.
b) First, the new religion claimed to be the TRUE representative of Jewish tradition but on the other hand (as a result of the roman exile) Jews were very widespread among the nations of the Mediterranean and also relatively well accepted and integrated. Hence, applying a simple marketing rule, the new religion had to take an aggrassive stance against Jews and their teaching which resulted in a fervent antisemitism, claerly manifested in the christian scriptures which all christians take as devinely inspired hence beyond criticism.
c) Second, among the hellenistic masses (which the new religion targeted) another religion was very popular at this time: mithraism, an idolatrous religion (or mythology) which adored a god, named mithra, born on the 25th of december from a virgin mother and who died by murder in order to achieve salvation for his believers. The new christian religion, seeking the acceptance of those masses, followed once again a simple marketing rule and implemented the prexisting mythology into its own doctrine. The result was an idolatrous and doubly plagiaristic doctrine combining rudiments of Jewish teaching and idolatrous traditions.
d) Obviously, the so formed new doctrine was full of incoherencies and contradictions which the christian leaders felt very well. To hide this fact they HAD to convert Jews to their belief. And this is what they tried during 2000 years.
e) Now, SUDDENLY, some christians claim that they do not want to proselytise Jews and even more: they claim to want a strong and authentic Jewish people, and they claim to support us unconditionally. This has a very simple reason. The massive Aliyah and especially the reestablishment of the Jewish State 60 years ago represented a flagrant refutation of the heart of the christian exegesis. The vatican was so shocked about this hostorical development that they do not know how to react ideologically until this day, meanwhile they support arab terrorism. Some protestant christians were less dogmatic and sought ideological refuge in the theory, invented especially for this purpose, that the reestablishment of Jewish Statehood were a proof of the veracity of christian myths. This is obviously absurd since the reestablishment of Jewish Statehood is the realisation of the Jewish prophecies and hence a proof of the veracity of Judaism, and a simple reading of Jewish and chsitian scriptures shows that both teachings cannot be true at the same time. Hagee and his friends are aware about this simple facts since they cannot be that blinded. So it is very clear that the so-called christian “zionism” is nothing but a new strategy adapted to the new reality, i.e. the establishment of the State of Israel 60 years ago. But everything else is the same since 2000 years.
2. However, we have also to explaine why so many Jews are taken in by these transparent strategies?! The answer is that every Jew in exile has two logical options: remain in exile or make Aliyah. If he does not want to make Aliya since he loves his materially comfortable life among the gentiles he has to develop relexes in order to appease his guilty conscience. The “ingenious” solution is the hypothesis that we Jews cannot survive without gentile help and recognition. This hypothesis, however, is refuted by history, from the exodus from Egypt (we just celbrated Pessah) until the last wars.
Of course Christians proselytize. It’s what they do. It’s part of their job description. Proselytizing is the act of trying to convince others of your opinion. That’s what people do. Every day and every hour of the day. It’s in our genes. It’s both a necessity and a lot of fun. Nothing to worry about. Unless you are unable to think for yourself. Unless you can’t stand a challenge. Unless you still need to grow up.
BTW, I’m speaking in general here, and not addressing anyone in particular.