T. Belman. Every country has laws which are passed by a democratic government or by a totoletarian government as the case may be. Regardless, some laws we support and some we rail against. Then there are religious laws which come from God or the Rabbinate depending on your point of view.
The secular among us abide by laws they don’t like but reject any laws coming from the Torah. Is there really a difference between secular laws and religious laws. At least the violation of religious law doesn’t involve a penalty.
Please make the case for why we should or should not have religious law.
To survive and strive, the Jewish state also needs the “other Israel,” it needs all those black-suited rabbis and students.
It has been said that the population of Israel will reach 20 million inhabitants in 2065. Of these, about a third will be haredi-religious and religious Zionist orthodox Jews.
The never born new government of Benjamin Netanyahu has just fallen ovr these religious Jews whom the secular Israel Beytenu party, led by Avigdor Liberman, wanted to force to enlist in the IDF.
Slowly but surely, it is already happening: about 7200 haredim served in 2017, several thousand are serving right now and more will be enlisted in the national service. More haredi men and women are entering the job market. It is a natural process of integration in a successful capitalistic society such as the Israeli one.
The point is another one. The point, here, is the secular contempt for the haredi Jews.
At the first glance, Israeli society presents, sometimes exasperatingly, the same secular characters of the most advanced Western societies. It is important this Israel exists and continues to bring about all the successes of contemporary economy and culture. But, to survive and strive, the Jewish state also needs the “other Israel,” all those rabbis and students, their enduring marriages blessed with many children, with their continuous passage from earth to heaven, a mysterious and intransigent society, made up of black-suited young men swaying in prayer.
In the last several years, Israel has seen a wave of religious fervor, not only among the orthodox Jews, but also among the secular ones returning to religion. At national level, with the law of the nation-state. Israel, a modern democratic state, is taking in fact the opposite path of the West, which repudiated its own religious history, culture and tradition and it is now culturally and physically exhausted.
That pious, humble and religious Israel, with its the prodigious familiarity with God and Jewish religious tradition, has been essential in keeping Israeli society strong, especially such a besieged society encircled with enemies.
The religious communities are the bulwark of Israeli society. If you try to integrate them into general society, Israel will benefit from it. If you try to assimilate then, Israel will lose the baricenter of Jewish strength.
@ Edgar G.: Edgar, this is from a Jerusalem Post article published way back in October 18, 2016:
“Because the road to the labor market passes through the IDF or National Service, large numbers of haredim who are unable to obtain exemptions are opting increasingly to enlist via IDF frameworks specially tailored to reduce the inevitable tensions between a life of strict religious observance and military service.
According to data presented to President Reuven Rivlin in August, the number of haredi men inducted into the IDF increased by 500 to 3,200 in 2016 compared to the same period in 2015.
Ben-Dahan has been active in promoting the establishment of a new haredi combat company in the Paratroopers Brigade, which is currently recruiting soldiers until December. The company will accept approximately 80 soldiers.
Ben-Dahan has also promoted haredi enlistment to the Tomer Company of haredi soldiers in the Givati Brigade.”
My understanding is that haredi enlistment in the IDF has further increased sine 2016.
Not all haredim are exampt from the draft. Only full-time yeshiva students qualify for an exemption. Young haredi men who are not full-time yehiva students, and who do not want to spend their whole lives as full-time Torah scholars, usually do report for the draft physicals when called up, do do serve if the IDF recruiting department finds them fit to serve.
There have even been some special schools set up to provide the secular , scientific-techicaleducation and regular high school diplomas from that are apparently required for service in the military. Most heredi young men at present, do not have diplomas from accredited schools with a full roster of secularsubjects.But these special schools, set up with some Department of Defense funding, set up apparently by Dati rabbis and a few haredi ones.
It seems, then, that the problem of haredi underrepresentation in the IDF is already on the way to being solved without the political baliban created by Mr. Leiberman. Those haredim who meet the qualifications for service are for the most part already serving. And many others are enrolling for courses to give them the skills necessary to qualify as recruits. There isn’t nearly as much draft resistance as people think. Rational people would just let the problem resolve itself over a period of time without demanding new legislation. Unfortunately, that’s Israeli politics.
@ Edgar G.:There is an article about this issue in today’s Israel Hayom ( ) that I think gives a fair and balanced review of the secular religious divide in Israel. Most valuable is a quote from an IDF captain who trained haredi soldiers for the IDF’s air force: “Moshe Prigan, a retired captain who once headed the ultra-Orthodox immersion department in the Israeli Air Force, said there has been a constant rise in enlistment. In practice, he said that most religious males who are not full-time students currently join the military with their rabbis’ quiet acquiescence. But forcefully asking them to legislate it was one step too far.
“The ultra-Orthodox community is one that knows how to find solutions. It is more pragmatic than people think,” he said. “But you can’t force it to endorse something that goes against their belief[s].”
@ Edgar G.: Thanks, Edgar. I have learned a great deal from your insight. These were matters I hadn’t thought through and connected with this subject before I read your post.
It is certainly true that many Orthodox rabbis in the United States, as well as non-Othodox rabbis, are subject to their congregations and their board of directors. However, there are also Hasidic sects in the diaspora who have charismatic leaders whom they support financially and obey implicitly. There are also teachers and scholars at yeshivas who are revered by their students and who are not afraid to write and say what they truly believe about Torah and halacha. In Europe before World War II, such revered sages who did not feel afraid of their congregations or afraid to write or speak their minds were more numerous. Some of these nineteenth and early twentieth century sages, like the Chafetz Chaim, are still revered authorities among Orthodox Jews today. Again, thanks Edgar for getting me to rethink this matter.
What I realize now is that I have no idea what these rabbinic sages or possum from the diaspora (such as the many sages in the Sloveitchik clan) had to say, if anything, about men and women sitting next to each other in public transportation vehicles, or for that matter other spaces outside the synagogue. Of course,the Orhtodox have always believed that separate seating of men and women is required in synagogue.
Public transportation goes back at least to the 18th century in Europe and America. , in the form of horse-drawn coaches. In tthe nineteenth century there were railroads, stage coaches, streetcars, and riverboats that provided public transportation, and I am certain that Jews made use of these means of transportation. Motorized buses arrived in the early twentieth century. Did Orthodox rabbinic sages in the diaspora forbid their followers from sitting next to people of the other sex in public vehicles before the State of Israel was founded. Do these alleged rules go back before about 50-60 years ago, and did they originate in Israel? I realize now that you have challenged me about this that I just don’t know the answer to this question, and have been too smug in assuming that I did know.
I have not changed my mind that in general, most haredi leaders in Israel have been overly strict in their Torah interpretations, and sometimes over-demanding of non-haredi Israelis, and that this has created unnecessary ill will–the “groundless hatred” that the Talmudic sages resulted in the destruction of the Temple. Of course their is plenty of groundless hatred on the part of the secularist activists in Israel as well. So sad, and very ominous at a time when we need Jewish unity.
I will have to do more research on this matter, ask the Orthodox rabbis whom I know (all chabadniks), and ask questions to the rabbis on the numerous Torah sites on the web in order to find the answers.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
When I give a reasoned-out, deliberate opinion, and find that you agree with it, it is very gratifying to me. Here is my opinion on your comment. There are differences between “strictly Orthodox Diaspora Rabbis” and Israeli counterparts. the Diaspora guys are hemmed in by the surrounding world, exposed to their mores, and much much more, Besides, they are only ordinary Rabbis, with no influence beyond their shools. And….rather importantly..they are paid flunkies, to “serve” their paymasters (who are far less religious than they), re services and an occasional uplifting sermon,
plus bar/batmitzvah tuition, perhaps chaidar organisation, marriages etc. The congregation members themselves, behave as they wish, without reference to the Rabbi’s “ordinances”.
They are multi-purpose employees on strict contracts, from Committees, which are only renewed if they please their employers. Regardless of their possible flowing beards and imposing appearances. I’ve had considerable experience with the workings of communal Rabbis both in Ireland, England and even in Israel, in discussions of this item with Conservative and Orthodox U.S Rabbis who lived in my building in Netanya and with whom I became rather friendly.. The Orthodox guy was “leading” a Reform Congregation, because it was the only job (as a Rabbi) that he could get at that time.
Contrast this with the Israreli Haredim, for whom there re no secular distractions because they are strictly obedient to the heads of their Yeshivas, or/and their specific Sects, closely grouped together in a tiny land area,…. and segregated even more in city areas…. ALSO…..they live in “The Land Of The Torah”, which gives them added “sanctity”…
The fact that there is a strong secular population, who are pushing against them, to force them to disregard the sacred tenets of the Holy Torah, for which they and their forebears gave their lives gladly, has a certain result…. They “KNOW” they are correct, so …they PUSH BACK, become more frum, invent more stringent ways of interpreting they Holy Scriptures and the deliberations of the Ancient Sages, so that they “feel” MORE holy, ….a natural reaction. And because their fear of assimilation is far greater than their fear of death, they double down on all these ‘”add-ons”… …
Unfortunately the Mea Shearim group -about 10 times worse,- give Haredim in general a bad name because they act like lunatics…which the Haredim don’t.
There’s much more to it and I’ve only scratched the surface, but this exhausts my present mood for “giving forth”….
Again…just my opinion…
@ Edgar G.: I agree with you about all of these points, Edgar.
As far as I know, even strictly Orthodox rabbis in the diaspora never demanded sex segregation of public transportation. Nor did they demand separate seating for men and women in venues other than shut. I think that the heeidi leaders have invented these rules since Israel was founded, probably in imitation of the Arabs.
Certainly the haredim’s seeming contempt for when, or at least those women who are not part of their communities, has contributed to the populasr hostiity to them. Many secular women, after all, are wealthy and powerful in Israel (more than half the secular judges and lawyers, who are the de facto rulers of Israel). It is extremely tactless and ill-advised of the haredi leadership to offend them.
@ Bear Klein: Bear, all true. But there is another side to this. Most haredim are actually extremely poor. Most Yeshiva students survive on a very meager pittance. Those with jobs as kashrut supervisors may make some money. And I am sure the raabbis in high positions of leadership, for example the leaders of the haredi sects, live very well. But most haredim have much lower incomes than most secular people in Israel. Most livein tiny apartments. This is even true of many of the ultra-Orthodox in the United States. An ultra-orthodox village near where I live in the Mid-Delaware Valley reportedly has the lowest per capita income of any commnity in the United States. Local people are always complaining that they are welfare bums.
This is an incredibly complicated issue. Meotti further elaborates his position in his latest column in Arutz Sheva, published the week after this one (which see).
The haredim do make some very positive and important contributions to Israel’s national life. Perhaps I have been too harsh in some of my criticisms of them in earlier posts. But there are also ways in which they have failed in the their duties towards the Jewish nations
The haredis practice of group prayer several times a day, their study of the the vast corpus of Jewish religious literature going back three thousand years, the operation by some haredi groups of yehivas in which Jews with no previous religious education can learn their people’s religious-cultural traditions, are all important positive contributions to Israel’s national life. Their massive attendance outdoor prayers, especially on the Jewish peoples national-religious festivals, help to boost Israeli Jews’ morale and sense of connection to their Jewishness.
But the haredim’s refusal to participate in the military defense of the nation, their hindering people from converting to Judaism , and denying that they are Jews after they are converted, the refusal of many of them to find gainful employment or to learn a trade in addition to religious study, their refusal to observe the national holidays and days of rerembrance establish by the state since 1948–these are all, in my opinion, very wrong ways to behave.
They are also in conflict with the teachings of many Torah sages, such as those his teachings are preserved in “The Ethics of the Fathers” (in the Talmud. and Maimonides. These sages taught that allJews should learn a useful trade and earn their own living, in addition to Torah study, and they warned that a life devoted to Torah study alone could actually lead people to sin. And I believe that there is some recent evidence that this is true.
The sages of the Talmudic period encouraged Gentiles who showed a sincere interest in Judaism and a desire to become Jews, to convert. They did not turn these people away or reject them the way the present-day Israeli haredi leaders do.
The pious Jews of the Hasmonian and Roman periods were fierce warriors as well as students of Torah. The haredim, if they corrctly guided in their piety, would do the same, and urge all of their students to do the same.
We should remember that Muslim scholars of their scriptures and Sunna teach their students to be fierce jihadi warriors. Many become fierce jihadi warriors themselves. This gives them an enormous military advantage over us, whose religious scholars are quasi-pacifists.
@ Arthur Wellesley:
I have no idea what you’re talking about, and your previous posts don’t inspire you to respond . Nothing you’ve said so-far is of interest to me . Being …as you say…right wing and supporting Israel….well, ii’s not the be-all and end-all. There is such a thing as responsible expression without foulness.
And… although same sex relationships in the Torah mention only men,the Sages were firm, that same sex also meant women.
So let us both ignore one another.
Edgar G. Said:
…Also lesbianism…Israel can well do WITHOUT.
Edgar G. Said: ‘I sympathise with your wife and would have done the very same thing, with maybe an added clout across the whiskers as well as yanking him out of the seat by those same whiskers.. Also called him and them, inhuman animals. (which of course I know they’re not, but impulses sometimes are played out )’
I find your ad hominem attacks most amusing, mein frummele. Above, though castigating me for my own views on the subject, you still advocate attacking the Hats physically, and above that post, you rail against a female practice which the Torah doesn’t even consider worth mentioning. Perhaps your studies of it on what’s undoubtedly your favourite website, PH.com, have skewed your perception.
I’m right wing, secular, and support Israel. That’s it.
Edgar G. Said:
People who live in glass kibbutzim shouldn’t throw rocks. BTW, Frummele, instead of railing against Lesbianism, which is not forbidden, why don’t you study a few films on the subject, easily available on what is undoubtedly your favourite website, PH.com
@ Bear Klein:
I understand your apprehension but I believe it to be needless.. Smotrich, to me, always looks and seems like a hatchling just out of the shell, a Donald Duck type.
His 1st Century demands show his complete inexperience and unsuitability for any Ministerial post -where he can do any damage. He’d need a 24 hour “watch”…
It might be making “great waves” in Israel, but in the confused, upside down, never before locked/failed Coalition Talks, anything controversial is …news… news…NEWS..
It’s all meaningless anyway, Netanyahu refused his demand, and even in a new coalition, if he makes the same demands he may put himself in schtuch just like Lieberman did, and THAT would be too much for the people.He’d never get into another Knesset. He doesn’t have a following of Goyisher/secular Russians who just used Israel to get out of Russia.@ Bear Klein:
Just “off the top of my head”. A somewhat ameliorated Halachic Abortion Law would be more beneficial to the country. Billions of mis-spent dollars would be saved, and there would be up to 40,000 home-grown new citizens every year. And as far as my past reading reminds me, I don’t think that the man-woman separation was so strictly enforced as is that of the Haredim today. Also there should be NO couples living together without marriage. There was an old tradition of occasional pre-marriage cohabiting until the area Rabbi visited that village. This custom grew up so as to allow young people to “be fruitful and multiply”. In those days, Rabbis were also ordinary men working at jobs for a living, and only specially appointed people would be like the 18th -19th Century American Circuit Riders-preachers who made their rounds of a large area.
Also lesbianism and openly flaunting homosexuality are something that Israel can well do WITHOUT.
@ Bear Klein:
I understand your apprehension but I believe it to be needless.. Smotrich, to me, always looks and seems like a hatchling just out of the shell, a Donald Duck type.
His 1st Century demands show his complete inexperience and unsuitability for any Ministerial post -where he can do any damage. He’d need a 24 hour “watch”…
It might be making “great waves” in Israel, but in the confused, upside down, never before locked/failed Coalition Talks, anything controversial is …news… news…NEWS..
It’s all meaningless anyway, Netanyahu refused his demand, and even in a new coalition, if he makes the same demands he may put himself in schtuch just like Lieberman did, and THAT would be too much for the people.He’d never get into another Knesset. He doesn’t have a following of Goyisher/secular Russians who just used Israel to get out of Russia.
@ Bear Klein:
Vait a dropple vile I must konzult vat mine old buddy Yossele Karo was sayink just a few yeers ago….
@ Edgar G.:
Smotrich got into the last two Knessets. If there would have been an agreement with Lieberman he would have become the Justice Minister. He was demanding this as the number two in the United Right. Perez the number one was going along with him. As the clock was running out the Likud was going to agree to this even if Levin of the Likud is who the Likud wanted as Justice Minister. Levin is an experienced lawyer with strong right wing credentials and would make a good justice minister in all likelihood.
Bennett for example is discussing a merger of his New Right with both Zehut and the United Right Party (including Smotrich). Now some of Bennett’s people in interviews are getting cornered how could they merge with such an anti-democratic person like Smotrich. His comments have political ramifications.
Smotrich comments are big news in Israel. You may not be interested but that is okay and certainly your prerogative.
@ Bear Klein:
I’m very happy that you being BEAR, with my conception of you, that there was more to it…… No I was never a referee but I got more -and better- practical experience from raising 4 brilliant children, who all disagreed with one another ALL the time.
@ Arthur Wellesley:
I think you must be the most intemperate, ignorant, and foolish poster ever on this site. What good does talking such nonsense do. Members are not interested in it,
It’s just like saying, that to stop a 6-8 week old pup from wetting inside the house when he has no understanding of anything, being so young, to rub his nose painfully and often in his own stuff.
Every time you post it’s an offence to common decency and judgement. Maybe a dose of that for you might do you a lot of good.
@ Edgar G.:More than theory kindly enlighten on three or four Jewish Specific Laws that would make life in Israel more equitable or improved.
Naturally I would expect nothing on slavery, rock throwing for Shabbat violations, exclusion of women in most of daily life, separation of the sexes in public spaces or transportation. I would expect you not agree to laws that keep women from being witnesses in court because the judges would not be allow hear them.
I am far from an expert on Jewish Law. One thing I believe is that community rabbi’s rulings are final. That is part of the issues Israel has getting compromise from the Haredi parties. The un-elected rabbis over rule the elected MKs in their parties. I could be interested in what a certain rabbi says but since I believe in free will I would never let a rabbi make decisions for me.
Interestingly the Haredi in Israel supposedly all vote as their rabbi decides. The exception to this is supposed to be the Haredi who grew in the US who supposedly value their individual vote.
@ Bear Klein:
I must have misread that…I thought that he meant “Public Toilets”….
@ Bear Klein:
What difference does it make to the way of things what Smotrich says. He may be lucky to even get in the next Knesset, (he only got into the last one because of
Bennett and Shaked) and won’t have the power, ever, to do what you are suggesting he wants.
You are “picking up”on inconsequential pil-pulim…and doing it a lot lately. What’s got into you ….? Gossip, either in the news or not, is still gossip.
@ Edgar G.:I was needling you period with a little sarcasm. I actual believed your response would be the opposite. I was correct.
Humor aside after your boxing days were you ever a referee? The reason I ask you sometimes seem to like step into the middle of a sparring match. When one does this maybe they do not see the big picture of the competition because they are just looking to see if a blow landed low or not.
@ Bear Klein:
Just one little point here-out of many possibles. Normally a minority should have not the power to run a State. But this is ISRAEL< and Jews live by certain Laws which make should the "minority rule" comment meaningless. We are NOT like other people and never should be. Either we're Jews or pseudo-Democrats.
Of course, this is modern world with a way of life not conducive to Halcha. But, because we are Jews, a "peculiar, separate" People we should try to incorporate as many halachic Laws into our National lives…keeping in mind that we must not do damage to our keeping VIABLE and going ahead , in this wicked, Jew-Hating world.
The REAL reason that Jews and Judaism survived of the millennia were at least 2.
One was the adherence to learning and obeying the Torah Laws as far as possible. The other was that the Rabonim, (R. Gershom of Maintz, Rashi, Maimonides, Nachmanides for instance..and onward) the successors to the Gaonim and Sanhedrin, devised an acceptable system of responding to the pressures of the outside world in a way that compromised to a sufficient degree, BUT…which, in a roundabout way, satisfied their minds that they were making their solutions in line with the Torah Edict. ,
Now….think about this for a minute. It is exactly what a famous well published Dayan, as well as a Chief Rabbi, (and again years after, the present Chief Rabbi of the U.K). told me as a young man during a one on one discussion of a passage in the Torah.
@ Bear Klein:
You don’t know me and you don’t know what you’re talking about in referring to my thoughts. Typical pique. Not like the Bear I know at all. I sympathise with your wife and would have done the very same thing, with maybe an added clout across the whiskers as well as yanking him out of the seat by those same whiskers.. Also called him and them, inhuman animals. (which of course I know they’re not, but impulses sometimes are played out )
My response here has nothing to do with my opinion above as stated earlier..
If the following is true it is really scary and bad news. This exactly the type of thing that completely upsets the non-Haredi public.
If the following is true it is really scary and bad news. This exactly the type of thing that completely upsets the non-Haredi public.
In coalition talks, PM accepted Haredi demand for gender segregated public areas
After draft of its understandings with United Torah Judaism on issues of religion and state leaked to press, Likud claims deal was never finalized
By Jacob Magid T
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is hosted by Minister of Health Yaakov Litzman of the United Torah Judaism party (left), at a meal to celebrate the birth of Litzman’s grandson, June 18, 2017. (Shlomi Cohen/FLASH90)
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is hosted by Minister of Health Yaakov Litzman of the United Torah Judaism party (left), at a meal to celebrate the birth of Litzman’s grandson, June 18, 2017. (Shlomi Cohen/FLASH90)
During the failed coalition talks last month, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed to an ultra-Orthodox demand to allow for gender segregation in public spaces, the Kan public broadcaster reported on Monday.
A leaked draft of the Likud’s agreement with the Haredi United Torah Judaism party stated that “within 90 days the government will amend the law in such a way that it will be permissible to provide public services, public study sessions and public events in which men and women are separated. This separation will not constitute discrimination according to the law.”
The draft agreement also barred individuals from filing a civil suit against municipal organizers of such events on the grounds of gender discrimination.
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Ultra-Orthodox groups have pressed in the past to have gender segregated events or facilities, like public transport, but the moves have been knocked down by the courts, which ruled it constituted discrimination.
party (left), at a meal to celebrate the birth of Litzman’s grandson, June 18, 2017. (Shlomi Cohen/FLASH90)
During the failed coalition talks last month, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu agreed to an ultra-Orthodox demand to allow for gender segregation in public spaces, the Kan public broadcaster reported on Monday.
A leaked draft of the Likud’s agreement with the Haredi United Torah Judaism party stated that “within 90 days the government will amend the law in such a way that it will be permissible to provide public services, public study sessions and public events in which men and women are separated. This separation will not constitute discrimination according to the law.”
The draft agreement also barred individuals from filing a civil suit against municipal organizers of such events on the grounds of gender discrimination.
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Ultra-Orthodox groups have pressed in the past to have gender segregated events or facilities, like public transport, but the moves have been knocked down by the courts, which ruled it constituted discrimination.
Responding to the report, Likud issued a statement saying that the agreement on the matter had not been finalized and that Netanyahu had sought during the coalition talks to soften the demand of Shas, UTJ, and the Union of Right Wing parties on issues of religion and state.
The Yisrael Beytenu party, which refused to join Netanyahu’s coalition by last week’s deadline, initiating snap elections scheduled for September, said that the Kan report provided further proof that the Likud leader “yielded to all the Haredi demands in the coalition negotiations.”
“The cancellation of the prohibition on gender segregation is another step in transforming the State of Israel into a halacha (religious law) state,” Avigdor Liberman’s party added.
The report came just hours after Netanyahu pushed back against comments by his hardline political ally and aspiring justice minister Bezalel Smotrich, who had called for the Israeli justice system to adhere to Jewish religious law.
Continue at: https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-coalition-talks-pm-agreed-to-haredi-demand-for-gender-segregated-public-areas/
Here is another article talking what the problems application in theory of Jewish Religious Law could bring. The writer in the article brings about that women would No longer be able to testify in court because the judges could not hear their testimony. He wants the Rabbinical Courts in Israel to have more power. (:LOCO GRANDE, MISTOORAF, COMPLETELY NUTS)
Religion is such a wonderful thing that people of different religions can only get along if they’re not religious.
I hate the bigoted, insular Hats. Were it up to me they’d be subjected to several years’ worth of compulsory nudist beach parties, with lots of music, dope and Manischevitz, suncream application enforced and performed by female Israeli soldiers (poor things for being ordered to do this ghastly task!) each one of whom is having her period.
Going home after a game of footy pesach Monday on the underground about 5-6 black hatters (Stamford hill) sat in the carriage. The female of the group stood and offered me her seat which I declined. Making my way to her (I guess the guys thought a trouble maker) I wished her hag pesach shmauch, which I had to repeat she asked if I was a JEW, guess I was the 1st white Jew she had talked to. What really impressed her just before I alighted from the train I showed her I carried matzah for my snack. She was able to talk with me as she was married to one of the guys.
Back on my pacific island we have a chabad rabbi and family what’s 2nd most important to them after dovuning ‘lets party.’
@Ted – Here is another article on the subject, as it is getting white hot as part of the new election cycle.
Smotrich is insisting he become the Justice Minister in the next government or they he will not agree to a coalition. Bibi wants Levin from the Likud. Levin would likely be similiar to Shaked in policies but the Likud want the Justice Portfolio because it sets the legislative agenda on law changes. Naturally Bibi wants an immunity law passed ASAP.
Bibi may end up with serious issues again in forming a coalition. So much so that their rumblings in the Likud that Bibi’s time is about to expire.On that we will have wait and see.
An article that better conveys what I have been trying to explain is found below. I put in only snippets please go to the link to see the whole article.
An article that better conveys what I have been trying to explain is found below. I put in only snippets please go to the link to see the whole article.
I’m a former Netanyahu advisor voting for Liberman
Opinion: The Yisrael Beytenu leader alone has stood up to the ultra-Orthodox parties imposing their way on Israeli society, while the party of Netanyahu accepted their endless demands that put the country at risk of losing its liberal
way of life
https://www.ynetnews.com/category/3084
Having another election campaign is unfortunate. This was not anyone’s preferred option.
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But now, new elections are set for September, I know I will vote for Liberman. It is important to have a strong, national, secular voice in the Knesset. Strong on security, strong nationally and strong politically.
A voice that will be strong socially with compassion for the elderly, and strong as a counter point to ultra-Orthodox parties.
Most of us respect our faith but not at the expense of our liberal society, free from religious coercion. The excessive demands of ultra-Orthodox politicians, pressured by the extremists, may yield short term gains, but impede their efforts to become fully assimilated in Israel’s modern society.
The long-accepted belief that there is no alternative to succumbing to the Orthodox demands, is changing. The party’s coercions have already and will continue to backfire, turning the non-Orthodox voters against the ultra-Orthodox community.
How should a father, mourning his son, who was killed in service of the country, feel about politicians that will go to any lengths to prevent their constituents from taking part in the defense of the country.
Liberman stood up to the ultra-Orthodox parities and must be commended. He stood up against the changes to the conscription bill, which would have watered down an already mild attempt to make these young men share the load in Israeli society. He had also pushed back on other legislation that would have changed how conversions are done and how the Sabbath is observed in public.
@Ted, do you want a state run by Torah Law Exclusively?
Reason I am asking this is now being proposed.
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5519474,00.html
@ Adam Dalgliesh:One correction my aliyah had more or less normal ups and downs. As soon I was able to learn fluent spoken Hebrew, I felt at home (this took around 8 months). I was well briefed on life in Israel before I came to Israel the first time by a family friend who had lived in Israel for years and this help set proper expectations.
This was different than some of the other westerners on my kibbutz ulpan who ran away in the first couple of months because what I call culture shock of the kibbutz. Moving is always hard to a new place let alone a new country with a different culture and language.
I adapted to Israel quickly and loved her more.
Ted, asked if one believes in religious law to run the State. The point I was trying to make with the examples is that I do not. I do not believe a minority should be able to impose it way of life on the majority.
I believe in the Nation State of Jews with the Jewish Symbols layed out as in the latest Nation State Basic Law. The Haredi Monopoly on Religion keeps other Jews from being equal in matters of religion. This includes other Orthodox Rabbis. I am against the being run by religious law.
Some of the best schools in Israel are from the Dati Leumi (Religious Zionists). They teach love of country (zionism), Jewish religious studies, math, science, English and tend to do it well. They unlike the private Haredi Schools are open to any student who wants to apply, they do not need to be from a particular sector of population. My point here being that I am not opposed to Orthodox ways. In fact my Judaism was learned greatly via an Orthodox Schul.
Even while living on a secular kibbutz the Haredi could have influence and found a way to make money. Aside from their monopolistic marriage control. If you are raising poultry you must do it a manner they consider Kosher. It surely is kosher if the inspector is taken care of properly and if he is not made happy perhaps you giving injections of medicines in an improper location. Also some papers proving one born abroad is Jewish are certainly accepted if presented with a friend who the rabbi owes a favor or two.
The monopoly of religion (Jewish) business in Israel has facilitated corruption and bitter feelings towards the Haredi Rabbis by many in Israel. This is a fact whether one agrees, accepts the status-quo or not.
@ Edgar G.:
My wife when visibly pregnant got onto a bus while carrying packages got onto a bus and there was one seat left. The seat was next to the window. The man seating in the aisle seat did not move over to let her sit. He did not stand up to let her into the window seat. When she tried to scoot past him he put up an elbow near her pregnant stomach to stop her from sitting down next to him.
I was following behind my wife as the last one on the bus. I saw what was going and proceeded to yell at this guy that he needed to move his posterior and let my pregnant wife sit or I would give him a beating in another second. You may have guessed he was Haredi.
The episode ended without me beating him because someone else got off the bus and my wife got a seat. Interestingly the people on the bus yelled at me to stop picking on the guy.
I guess Edgar you would have agreed with the Black Hat because hell we knew were in Jerusalem and my pregnant wife had no right to sit in a free seat on a bus next to a religious man.
@ Frank Adam:
You are comparing them to the French Nobility……Someone is mashugga here.
Are they a privileged part of the population because they chose to devote themselves to Torah. over comfort…to “starve in a garret” as so many of them are and have done. Heavily burdened with incurable genetic diseases due to close Shtetl and Ghetto induced intermarriage…..with often very short crippling lifespans (along with all the inhuman and impossible to describe persecution)
When I landed in Canada, many years ago…I did just that. for about 4 years (by circumstances. not by choice)…and believe me….It’s NO privilege !!
Your last paragraph seems-to me at least- to be meaningless …completely irrelevant to the subject. You’re generally better than that.
@ Bear Klein:
Everybody has anecdotal annoyances to tell, which , to THEM, are the biggest things amongst multitudes of pil-pulim that bother them. YOou are sounding as if you need to go into politics to try to change the system. You don’t sound like BEAR at all, and you can’t take the worries of the world (in this case, Israel, which has more than its share) on your shoulders.
I grew up in Ireland, a verbrente priest ridden mish-mash of hardly a country (excpt in literature). We had to scurry to school and and back, down the lane-ways and side streets, (shopping too) were barred from clubs, spat at, looked down on as dirty Jew -men, and much much more. So much more that I can hardly bring myself to write it down.
We got married in our shools but it wasn’t recognised as legal until we also went through a Civil Ceremony BY the “sneering” GOYISHER pot-bellied officials..
What I really want to say about it is …”I don’t wanna talk about it”.
Oh yes, I forgot….I don’t care about a woman getting off a bus in Bnei Brak and being screamed at…She has a choice ..she can ignore it, or scream back…probably louder.!!
@ Edgar G.: Thanks, Edgar. I appreciate your praise.
@ vivarto: vivarto, I agree with you that our religious people were warriors like Joshua, Jacob, the Maccabees, the Zealots, and the warriors of Simon Bar-Kochba. But let us not forget that there are many individuals in Israel’s “national-religious” camp who do live up to this glorious legacy. Just in the past two months, several, including two rabbis were killed by the Arab terrorists while heroically defending Jewish civilians.
As for the haredim, I share your disappointment that they bring their young men up to be bookworms who neglect healthy physical exercise, gainful employment, and Israel’s war of self-defense. But even here, let us remember that several thousand haredi men do serve in the IDF, having the courage not only to stand up to the terrorists,but also their own rabbinic leaders, which may actually require more courage from them. Several haredi soldiers were recently killed fighting the terrorists. Let us not stereotype all haredim as cowards or unpatriotic.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:
ADAM- You’ve written many good posts, but this one is amongst the very best. It shows moderation, depth and acute perception, and a wide perspective.
You are dealing with the whole matter of the existential Israel, the fact that it IS, after all, a Jewish State, (whether you meant to or not) .and destined by the Creator (according to the Torah) as “a peculiar nation”…and to live alone”…which we always have done…(in a metaphorical sense)…..
Meotti’s article went to the very existence of the Jewish People as a whole.
I rarely disagree with Bear but this rare time, I do…although not altogethe
@ Bear Klein: That’s fine with me, Bear. Please remember that while we don’t agree about everything, I respect you and your opinions, I always read your posts with great interest and have learned a great deal from them that I didn’t know before I am sensitive to the hard time you had in Israel as an oleh, while I was living a (relatively) priveleged life in the United States.
@ Bear Klein:
To me your post is very contradictory Bear. I’ll tell you why…Your parents’ marriage surely required someone to perform the marriage…did it not…Maybe it was or was not a Rabbi….. Halacha may require only 2 witnesses…as do most of the world’s legal marriages…but a Halachic Rabbi will not marry those who are not Halachically Yidden. I don’t need to tell you this of course.. This is the Law of the Land..and why not???
Jews ARE free in Israel to practice their religion as they chose andI don’t see how they are dictated to therein by the Rabonim. Re; marriage in Israel, they come into it to make sure that the couple is undeniably Jewish. I myself..like you..when I went to Israel to get married there as a mitzvah, had my own troubles with the Communal Rabbi, whose jaw I threatened to break with the fist I waved under his nose, and whose telephone I grabbed up ready to throw out of the window. (8 years to get a phone) That was because he wanted to return to us only a COPY of my wife’s Satmar conversion, and not the original as the Rebbe had cautioned us to retain. I posted this all here in the past. He didn’t query her Yiddishkeit, but was doubtful of mine……?????
I’m not religious, but being a devoted Jew I wanted to marry according to age -old Jewish Tradition……Why not…? I could never contemplate any other way. Even if I were only a nominal Jew it would be the same…all part of being who we are.
There are several reasons why 60,000 go to Cyprus. I can only guess them. Halacha forbids a Cohen to marry a divorcee, like happened to Chief Justice Haim Cohen many years ago. He went to Cyprus. One or both partners are not Jewish. One or both partners hate Rabonim because they don’t appreciate that if it were not for these devoted Yidden Judaism would have been wiped out centuries go and we, today would be ordinary pig-eaters. Who knows why people hate others. Why are Jews hated….???
{{This is by far the best and most important article that Meotti has ever written for Arutz 7}}
Why do you care whether people go to Cyprus to marry or not…?
The Haredim seem to cause a lot of trouble, but mostly to the non-religious with prickly egos IT’S THE LAW OF THE LAND..and a damned good thing it is. If the State had not been founded by verbrente Socialists, who wanted…as Ben Gurion famously said, thieves, pickpockets and prostitutes.. so that Israel could be like any other nation….Welll…he got it. But Israel, despite all these things, is NOT like any other Nation. because WE ARE JEWS, and will NEVER be like other nations…except in external matters and the need to adapt to modernity…..WTHOUT, HOWEVER, giving up what makes us Jews.
The saying that “People Are Funny”…is well exemplified on this subject..take it as you will……
@ vivarto:
When you talk like that, you discredit yourself, not the hareidim.
I would believe much of what is said to excuse the Haredim if they were capable of supporting themselves but they are dependent on charity and public welfare without contributing in taxes proportionately. Effectively they have engineered themselves a position of privilege like the pre-Revolution French nobility and will draw down upon themselves the wrath of all.
Finally we have not heard these seventy years that they have achieved anything new by way of: doctrine, practice, or influential books in Jewish religion for the Jewish people at large. Sorry they have recreated a body of state of the art Jewish scholarship as of pre- Shoah but stuck there in Poland and potatoes; and drafted a Talmudic Encyclopaedia- but is it complete yet and certainly not yet well publicised and distributed.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:We have different definitions of freedom. You are so far off on this issue I will not even bother debating it with you.
The black dressed clowns are parasites.
Weak perverts give bad name to Jews.
Instead of wasting time studying shit, they should study Krav Marga so that they at least can defend themselves from the Arab Nazis.
Our Israelite ancestors were not like these sick caricatures!
They were warriors.
The religious Jews were warriors, too.
Yehoshua was a religious leader and a military leader when he conquered Jericho.
The Zealots who fought Romans were not like these black-dressed weaklings. They were heroes, strong and trained in swordsmanship.
The Maccabi’s were priests an warriors, not sick weaklings living on welfare.
As far as I am concerned these idiots can study or not study Torah. They can even stuff their Torah up their asses. It is their business, but they need to be a part of our national defense and our national productivity, not just weak and cowardly parasites.
@ Bear Klein: Bear, Israelis are free to practice their religion as they want in Israel, although they may be subject to some expenses and inconveniences that other, more priveleged israelis are spared. There are many Masorti and Reform shuls in Israel . Israeli Jews are not prohibited from praying at these shuls. You can even have a marriage ceremony performed in these shuts. True, in order to get the marriage legally registered by the government, you have to find an Orthodox rabbi in Israel willing to perform a second ceremony,, or it that doesn’t work out, have a second civil marriage performed abroad. A pain in the ass, and unjust discrimination, but not the end of the world. Even if Masorti and Reform rabbis are not paid by the government, they are paid by their congregations, as they are in the United States. In that respect, Masorti and Reform people in Israel are no worse off than they are in the United States.
@ Bear Klein: Bear,I understand your concerns about haredi meddling in the lives of secular Israelis in improper and unhelpful ways. I agree that many haredim, especially their rabbis, behave badly towards secular Israelis, and that this behavior should be stopped by the government.
But nearly all of these abuses have caused irritation or heartache to secular Israelis rather than grave injuries. Very few people are unemployed because of the haredim, and I haven’t heard of many people who have starved to death because of them. Only a few have been murdered by haredim. Most murders in Israel are committed by Arabs. Secular Israelis seem to be the second largest group among the murderers.
Only a few Israelis have been refused marriage by the rabbinate on the grounds that they are “bastards.” They have got on the plane to Cyprus–only a half hour from Israel by plane–and got married there. Other Israelis that cannot marry in Israel because of rabbinical restrictions have also taken the short plane ride to marry. Or they live together without being married, as many people nowadays do anyway. Traffic jams? I live in Southeastern New York, where road work by repair crews trying to make or decaying infrastructure usable is continuous. I suffer long traffic jams on a daily basis. Markets and restaurants closed one day a week in some neighborhoods? No one is starving as a result. If you are really low on groceries on the Sabbath, drop in on your neighborhood rabbi for a free shabbes dinner, or even three free shabbes meals. Jewish tradition will make it difficult for him to refuse! (I do this most Saturdays in the United States). Living well is always the best revenge.
On the other hand, Arab terrorists have murdered thousands of Israelis over the years. And the leftists in the Israeli government have facilitated these murders in hundreds of way that would take me too long to comment. They, not the haredim,are a threat to Israel’s continued existences. describe in a comment.
@ Adam Dalgliesh:You are mixing issues. The Pal-Arabs are certainly the enemy and The Supreme Court is certainly way too activist and has done harm.
Yes, the Haredi are not the enemy. However they have way too much disruptive power in the lives of Israelis. There are actually some Haredi soldiers now and some entering the workplace.
Most people who have never lived in Israel only focus on the conflict between Israel and the Arabs. They also have their views on things inside of Israel that impact the conflict because this what interests them.
Israelis care about things that impact their daily lives. Some women will tell you stories about getting off a bus in Bnei Brak and getting screamed at and threatened because they were wearing a sleeveless blouse in the heat of summer. Some people might tell you story about rock thrown at them because they were driving in the wrong place at them during Shabbat.
Someone will tell you a story how the mini-market that used to open on Shabbat is no longer open in their secular neighborhood and this conveniences plus hurts the income of the store owner.
Someone else will tell you a story about that all of a sudden their children are considered bastards because their conversion was reversed and their marriage is no longer considered valid.
Someone in the IDF planning department may tell you that if the IDF do implement a draft for the Haredim that in 2020 the IDF will have not enough soldiers or they will need to increase the draft time of those that are drafted.
Someone else can tell you that they were stuck in traffic on a Sunday (1st work day of the week) for three hours because the trains were shut-down because Shabbat work on the rails was cancelled, increasing the road traffic.
These are some of things Israelis do not like about laws or behavior that some of the Haredi exhibit or have had enacted.
There are many more things but I will stop with these few examples. Does not mean that there are not other things that need to be fixed in Israel.
Ted, you or your computer has trashed my comment. Please reinstate in here.
I take a view somewhere between Meotti and Bear. The Haredi leaders are a pain in the ass, but they are not the enemy. The enemy are the Arab and other Muslims at war with Israel, and the unelected but extremely powerful leftist establishment which aids and abets them.
THrough its representatives on the Supreme Court and in numerous government law enforcement offices, this establishment prevents Jews from building homes in Judea-Samaria, and has compelled the destruction of several thousand Jewish homes, and the eviction of their inhabitants, often with no place else to live. It has recognize specious, completely undocumented land claims in Judea-Samaria. It has installed lawyers in every batallion of the IDF to make sure that the IDF doesn’t conduct any operations that may kill or injure Arab civilians.This makes any forceful Israeli response to terrorist attacks impossible. It forces the government to accept thousands of Muslim illegal immigrants, many of them criminals, as permanent residents of Israel. It mercilessly harasses politicians it considers too hawkish with phoney criminal investigations, but never investigates corruption by leftist politicians. These leftists, not the haredim, are Israel’s internal enemy.
That is not to say that the haredi leadershipsoppositionf their young men from serving in the IDF, and their harassing those who do, is patriotic behavior. Obviously it isn’t.
But military top brass say they can’t cope even with the haredi men who volunteer for service, of whom there are some. They say that their lack of physical fitness and their rigid religious attitudes–they insist on serving in all-male units without any contact with women, and in serving in their own special all-haredi units– make more of a burden than a help to the IDF. Many of the top military brass do not want any haredim to serve in the iDF. Leiberman’s proposed law to draft them would be utterly useless to Israel’s national defense.
Jews should be free to practice their religion as they want in Israel (or not) and it should not be dictated by a certain group in the society in a monopolistic fashion.
Why should the Haredi rule over marriage exclusively for example? Jewish Law requires only two witnesses two marry who are not family members. That is how my parents were married I believe ( I was not there) in the Dominican Republic. So why in Israel did I require a Haredi Rabbi to marry me and my bride?
Why can an Israeli not marry in the manner they choose? Why do 60,000 Israelis yearly choose to go overseas to marry. Cyprus has a whole marriage industry which Israelis regularly use.
There are many Masorti congregations in Israel. Why if someone belongs to one of these does the Rabbi not have the legal right to marry someone in Israel? Many Israelis who are going back to religion are NOT doing this in a Haredi Schul but via some other means and if they are learning from some other rabbi why is this rabbi not paid by the state? Why can this Rabbi not collect a fee from the state for marrying a couple who wish him to preform the ceremony?
The State should not be in the business of religion or dictating that a certain group have a monopoly over religion. Christians and Muslims in Israel are freer-er to practice their religion than Jews are.