Dr Pipes goes to London

By Melanie Phillips

Like bookends at the beginning and end of a week, two significant events occurred recently which, because they conflicted with the received unwisdom, were simply ignored by the mainstream media.

The first, reported below, was the Dispatches TV documentary about Britain’s radical mosques. This provoked virtually no comment from either the media or politicians. The second was the encounter between the London Mayor, Ken Livingstone, and the American scholar of Islam and director of the Middle East Forum, Daniel Pipes, at a day-long event organised by the Mayor to discuss whether or not there was a clash of civilisations. Since this was an enormous left-fest on Livingstone’s home turf, with virtually no speakers other than Pipes and his seconder Douglas Murray (and elsewhere in this jamboree, Oliver Kamm) to put up any opposition, and with an audience overwhelmingly composed of people who thought that American neoconservatives had horns and a tail, it was assumed that Pipes would be disembowelled and his head stuck on a Greater London Authority turnpike. So great was this certainty that Pipes was advised of his terminal foolishness in accepting Livingstone’s deadly invitation.

How wrong everyone was.

By all accounts, it was Livingstone and his seconder, Birmingham councillor Salma Yaqoob, who were eviscerated by Pipes and Murray. Pipes, with his gentle, scholarly demeanour and authoritative learning, would doubtless have disarmed his audience by his steadfast refusal to demonise Islam and all Muslims; not at all what would have been expected by those who had previously been fed the ludicrous propaganda caricature of the ‘Islamophobic’ anti-jihadi. Murray, meanwhile, went straight onto the attack and in a series of devastating blows apparently took apart both Livingstone and Yaqoob and brought the audience cheering to its feet.

The blogosphere has duly recorded this victory; you can see the links here on Pipes’s website, as well as his own take on the event. But although, as he writes, some 150 journalists attended the day, not a single word has been written about this in the British press. To read a mainstream press account by a British writer of this British event, you have to go to America. In the New York Sun, Daniel Johnson entertainingly notes:

    The audience — eccentrically attired and coiffed, sporting cranky badges and sandals — were atypical political activists, and to judge from their questions, heavily inclined to the left. ‘This is liberal hell!’ muttered one New Yorker, contemplating the ‘Free Palestine’ and anti-racism stalls to which the mayor was giving house room. Yet the loudest cheers were not for him, but for the Daniel who had ventured into this lions’ den. As soon as the self-styled ‘young British mom’ in a hijab who was seconding the mayor, Salma Yaqoob, referred to the July 7 London suicide bombings as ‘reprisal events,’ I felt the audience shudder. There was another shudder when Ms. Yaqoob refused to utter the word ‘Israel.’

The victory by Pipes and Murray was surely a development of no small significance in these savage and degraded times. Here were two neoconservatives, both staunch anti-jihadis and robust supporters of Israel and America, making the case to thousands of progressives in a left-wing bear-pit that London’s very own version of Che Guevara was helping promote and endorse an evil ideology — and the audience, which might have been assumed to be viscerally anti-America, anti-neocon and anti-Israel (which interestingly, and hearteningly, was never mentioned) duly turned not on them but on Livingstone.

This remarkable reaction provokes two reflections. First, the reason why Livingstone has got away with it for so long is simply because he has been allowed to do so. Thanks to a media that slavishly laps up his every utterance and largely supports his odious world-view, and opponents who tend to be intellectually spineless (think of the Tories, who can’t find one single candidate able enough to stand against him) he has never effectively been held to account. Faced with opponents who are formidably well-informed and intellectually fearless, he is promptly exposed for the empty ideologue that he is and duly crumples.

The second reflection is that, despite all the opprobrium that fashionable opinion generally heaps upon the Pipes/Murray view of the world, despite all the name-calling of ‘Islamophobe’ and all the rest of it, below the surface at least some people have clearly been listening hard and thinking for themselves. They have undoubtedly noted that the Islamists are not exactly committed to fundamental human rights, and that the alliance between sections of the left and those committed to the genocide of the Jews, the killing of homosexuals, the beating of women and the extinction of individual liberty is as loathsome as it is lethal. In other words, opinion has shifted. That’s why they cheered. And that is immensely cheering.

It was a defeat for the totalitarian left and a move towards sanity and decency. And that, no doubt, is why it has not been reported.

January 26, 2007 | 17 Comments »

17 Comments / 17 Comments

  1. The more I read and the more I reflect on Nathan’s attack on Oliver Kamm, the more I want to distance myself and condemn it. Nathan has lost it. He has become hysterical in his zeal. His attack was egregious and greatly defammatory. And those that endorsed his attack are equally wrong.

    Wrong Ted.You have not thought this through very well at all and are being unduly influenced by others very close and dear to you, who ignorantly defend Kamm as a friend of Israel (and presumably,ipso facto,the Jewish people no matter whether they live in Israel or not).

    Ted, it is not enough to use soothing words to protect Jews only in Israel. The key requirement is that one must protect all Jews from Islamofascist mass murderers wherever Jews live in other parts of the world like Kosovo and Bosnia and elsewhere, if one has any kind of consistency, integrity or conscience to speak of as a defender of the Jewish people as a whole, and not just merely those living in Israel alone.

    I strongly object to people like Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman who say they are all 100% for Israel – which is still, for the time being, a sovereign Jewish nation state – but then in the same breath, by default, support Islamofascist mass murderers of Jews, Romanies and Serbs in the Balkans by de facto siding with their terrorist leaders (eg., Alija Izetbegovic, Ramush Haradinaj, Agim Ceku, Hashim Thaci) who go around killing Jews, Romanies and Serbs by beheading, disembowelment and throat slitting and using the pretext of de facto siding with these terrorists because they allegedly “want to prevent genocide and ethnic cleansing”. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.


    Such statements could just as easily be used against Israel in the very near future!

    It is a dire warning to us all!!

    These Islamofascist terrorists mentioned above are the ones who engage in this barbaric racist Nazi practice and not the Serbs who are demonstrably and historically anti-fascist and explicitly tolerant, as demonstrated by the hundreds of thousands of Muslims, Jews, Catholic Christians and Protestants who live in Serbia in peace and with full rights as equal citizens – especially during the explicitly tolerant Socialist multi-ethnic Milosevic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia [Serbia & Montenegro] era from February 1992 to October 2000.

    It is Kamm who has become “hysterical” and “lost it” in his “zeal” to attack, libel and defame people all over the world who disagree with him on the true character of Milosevic and Izetbegovic. You say that just because Kamm by default took sides in the war between Izetbegovic’s Bosnian muslims and Karadzic’s Bosnian Serbs by calling for the bombing of Serbia over unproven claims of genocide in Bosnia by Karadzic, that this does not make Kamm a supporter of Izetbegovic?! Please, you are straining the laws of cause and effect here. Of course Kamm, Lantos, Lieberman et al could have forseen what was going to happen if they sided with the KLA and Izetbegovic: the documentation on their terrorist nature was already public for many years, as for example the reports made out by Yossef Bodansky from 1992 onwards as director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare and by his 1995 and 1996 books Offensive in the Balkans and Some Call It Peace: Waiting For War In The Balkans:

    http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/civil_war/iran_springboard.html

    http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/geostrategy/bodansky_peace/index.html

    http://members.tripod.com/Balkania/resources/geostrategy/bodansky_offensive.html

    IRAN’S EUROPEAN SPRINGBOARD?

    Yossef Bodansky & Vaughn S. Forrest

    Task force on Terrorism & Unconventional Warfare, House Republican Research Committee, September 1, 1992

    Meanwhile, the Muslim youth of Bosnia-Hercegovina were being exposed to Islamist terrorism. The Syrian-Iranian terrorist campaign in Western Europe was conducted in the early-1980s under the cover of the Lebanese Armed Revolutionary Forces (LARF) from a forward base in Yugoslavia that included several Islamic Jihad operatives. Other Palestinian terrorist organizations operating in close cooperation with Syria and Iran were also using Yugoslavia as their own forward base as well as for launching operations by their international partners. Since 1987, Ahmad Jibril’s “foreign division,” optimized to conduct operations in the West, has been the primary operational channel of the international terrorist system controlled by Syria and Iran. The PFLP-GC had networks and offices in Yugoslavia that also housed HizbAllah operatives. “Islamic Jihad’s planners expect to be able to use Yugoslavia as their base in Eastern Europe if only because of the assured sympathy of the Bosnian Muslims,” John Laffin observed in 1988.

    Many of these Islamist terrorists established contacts with the local Muslim communities and began to actively recruit supporters from their ranks. Tehran was very encouraged by the local welcome, for by then, many Bosnians who had undergone extensive terrorist training and Islamist indoctrination in Lebanon and Iran were returning home, where they immediately began organizing and radicalizing the local communities. However, with the growing intra-ethnic tensions in Yugoslavia, many of the Iranian controlled and trained terrorists and their local support networks gradually shifted their attention away from Islamic Revolution to supporting their Muslim brethren in the more local struggle against the Serbs and Croats.

    Meanwhile, Iran has also consolidated a Muslim leadership network supportive of Tehran’s world view. At the center of the Iranian system in Europe is Bosnia-Hercegovina’s President, Alija Izetbegovic, “a fundamentalist Muslim and a member of the Fida’iYan-e Islam organization,” who is committed to the establishment of an Islamic Republic in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Fida’iyan-e Islam group advocates the struggle for the establishment of Islamic rule wherever Muslims live, and as early as the late-1960s, had already recognized the leadership of Ayatollah Khomeyni and maintained close cooperation with his people.

    Indeed, in 1970, Izetbegovic published his Islamic Declaration stating his world view: “There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and non-Islamic institutions,” he wrote. “The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non- Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one.”

    After Khomeyni’s triumph in Tehran, Izetbegovic renewed his call to implement his Islamic Declaration, began organizing an Islamist political movement, and within a few years was thrown in jail for subversion.

    Later, in early-May 1991, Alija Izetbegovic made an official visit to Tehran where he reiterated his long-held views about the future of his country. He was described by Tehran as “a Muslim believer whose party is the strongest political organization in Bosnia-Hercegovina and rallies Yugoslav Muslims” to the Islamic cause. While in Tehran, Izetbegovic emphasized that “Islam has very deep roots in Bosnia- Hercegovina” which affects its ~ policies. Alija Izetbegovic also declared that Bosnia-Hercegovina was “anxious to expand” its diverse and comprehensive ties with Iran. In return, Iran promised massive financial assistance and other help to rejuvenate Bosnia’s local economy.

    In Tehran, members of the Bosnian delegation emphasized the importance of the Islamic factor in generating Iranian investments in Bosnia-Hercegovina: “Muslim intellectuals in Yugoslavia believe that in the event of inevitable privatization of the Bosnia-Hercegovina’s (sic) industry, the capital from the larger neighboring republics of Serbia and Croatia could flow into these industries and outvote Muslims in the republic’s economy. This will lead to their political weakness, they fear, adding that Islamic countries’ investments in the republican economy could change such unfavorable developments.”

    In addition to these economic considerations, special attention was paid to the expansion of religious and cultural ties, including expansion of the training of Yugoslav Muslims in Iranian schools as well as the translation and publication of key Islamic texts, including the basic Shi’ite works, in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Tehran, needless to say, has been enthusiastic concerning Islamic-cultural assistance.

    Later, in pursuit of his goal to establish an Islamic Republic, Izetbegovic also visited Libya in the summer of 1991, seeking financial and political support. “At present,” he explained upon returning to Sarajevo, “I do not ask our brothers in the Muslim states for weapons, only political support. However, if the civil war expanding in our country endangers our Muslim brothers, then many things can happen.”

    http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/papers/civil_war/iran_springboard.html

    Kosovo’s entire Jewish community along with 350,000 Serbs and Romanies were brutally expelled in Kristallnacht style pogroms by the KLA. This is documented fact and is all in the public domain and has been for many years. There is no possible way in the world that Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman could not be aware of all these crimes Have any of them condemned the KLA? No!! Instead not only do we have Lantos and Lieberman on record as calling on the Clinton Administration to arm the KLA but to add insult to injury for Kosovo’s Jews, Romanies and Serbs, we have the infamous public statements of Senator Lieberman to the Washington Post back on April,28, 1999,a full month after the bombing had commenced that:

    “The United States of America and the Kosovo Liberation Army stand for the same human values and the principles . . . Fighting for the KLA is fighting for human rights and American values.” (Washington Post, Apr. 28, 1999).

    It makes one wonder what Senator Lieberman considers American values.

    The Crimes of the KLA: Who Will Pay?http://antiwar.com/orig/jatras.php?articleid=1499

    US Senate Republican Policy Committee: The Kosovo Liberation Army: Does Clinton Policy Support Group with Terror, Drug Ties?

    Crimes of the KLA: Command responsibility of Ramush Haradinaj:Massacre in the village of his birth

    Izetbegovic was a notorious anti-Semitic Israel-hating pro-Palestinian Islamofascist terrorist hell bent on creating an Islamist fundamentalist fascist theocracy and imposing Sharia law on all of Bosnia and expelling or murdering any Jews, Serbs amd Croats (despite his initial alliance with the Ustasha Nazi Franjo Tudjman) who resisted being turned into subservient Dhimmi status. Again this is all in the public domain and has been for many years. There is no chance in hell that Kamm et al, could not have been aware of it.

    What if it was Israel Ted? If an individual called for massive NATO bombing of Israel over the alleged massacre of Palestinians in Jenin in 2002 because they thought a massacre had just occurred, would you also claim that while the bombing of Israel’s civilian infrastructure and the killing of thousands of innocent Israelis by US/NATO Depleted Uranium bombs was a horrible thing to have happened, the individual in question was not to blame since “they were taken in by propaganda”, that by calling for the massive bombing of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem, etc, “in order to protect innocent Palestinians from monstrous Israeli genocide” they were not taking sides and not supporting Arafat’s PLO/Fatah against Israeli security forces?!

    If then in a telephone conversation some mutual, very close friends of yours in Canada and the US jumped to their defense by saying that while the destruction of Israel and the killing of thousands of Israelis by US/NATO bombs was regrettable, at least their intent was quite noble since all they were really doing was wanting to allegedly “prevent further massacres like that in Jenin” and “don’t forget they were long time supporters of American and Canadian Jews”, and “he has said many nice things at many different Canadian and US Jewish organizations’ conferences and helped Canadian and American Jews in many practical, charitable ways over many, many years!!”

    I am sure you would want to hang up the phone on such a person and never speak to them again.

    Kamm is a specialist in sophistry who attempts to silence the truth concerning those who expose his egregious lies against Milosevic and his whitewashing of Izetbegovic’s WW2 Nazi past. There is no question that Izetbegovic was a prime recruiter for Heinrich Himmler’s and Hajj Amin al Husseini’s 13th Waffen SS “Handzar” division via Izetbegovic’s membership of the Bosnian “Young Muslims” Islamist organization modelled after the notorious Egyptian “Muslim Brotherhood”, forebears of todays al Qaeda and Wahabbi type Islamist extremists.

    It is also irrefutable that Izetbegovic revived the very same “SS Handzar” Islamofascist division in early 1993.

    Please don’t try and excuse him by saying he could not possibly have known who Izetbegovic was or could not have forseen the consequences of what the KLA would do to the Albanians, Serbs, Jews and Gypsies once NATO intervened on their side as the “KLA’s Airforce”.

    This documentation on Izetbegovic and the Handzar Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia was all in the public domain in the UK British press as early as December 1993!! Kamm lives in the UK. Where has Kamm been since this report was published well over 13 years ago in the British press? In a cave in Afghanistan or in a coma perhaps?

    The report outlining Izetbegovic’s revival of the infamous murderous WW2 Nazi 13th Waffen SS “Gebirgs division Handschar Kroatische” notorious for its massacres of Jews,Serbs and Gypsies in 1943, was published in the UK Daily Telegraph newspaper, under the headline: “Albanians and Afghans fight for the heirs to Bosnia’s SS past”

    Here is an excerpt:

    Last summer Muslim and Croat leaders in Fojnica asked the WN to declare it a “zone of peace”. Since then war has ravaged the town, bringing murder, mayhem and exile to at least half its original population of 12,000. Different, and alien, forces are now in charge — some of the toughest in the Bosnian Muslim army.

    These are the men of the Handzar division. “We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline,” a Handzar told one UN officer.

    Up to 6000-strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as the heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler.

    According to UN officers, surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo-Croatian. “Many of them are [Muslim] Albanian, whether from Kosovo (the Serb province where Albanians are the majority) or from Albania itself.”

    They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say UN sources. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could mean the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania, thence to the Albanians of Macedonia.

    Pakistani fundamentalists are known to have had a strong hand in providing arms and a small weapons industry for the Bosnian Muslims.

    Hardline elements of the Bosnian army, like the Handzar, appear to have the backing of an increasingly extreme leadership in Sarajevo, represented by Mr Ejup Ganic, Foreign Minister, Mr Haris Silajdzic, Prime Minister, and Mr Enver Hadjihasanovic, the new army chief.

    I can send you reams and reams of documentation supporting the above from other sources. It is utterly impossible for Kamm to have been unaware of this information for the last 13 plus years unless he was in a coma or living in a cave in Afghanistan.

    I did not libel or “defame” Kamm in any way since the proper definition of a “libel” is to publish a public statement that is false . What exactly did I write that Kamm claims was false? What specifically, pray tell did I say that was untrue? That Kamm by default supported Izetbegovic who was a known genocidal mass murderer? There is no question Kamm supported Izetbegovic since he sided with the Izetbegovic faction by default when he called for the bombing of Serbia for the now utterly discredited claims of “aggression” and “genocide against Bosnia” “perpetrated by Karadzic,Mladic and Milosevic”. Outrageous claims which have been proven false umpteen times here on Israpundit.

    Kamm has not once been able to substantiate any of his outlandish, outrageous claims against Milosevic, but yet keeps deafeningly silent when confronted with hard documented evidence of Izetbegovic’s monstrous crimes of genocide against the Serbs [documented here on Israpundit umpteen times] or simply whitewashes it all by using sophisticated casuistry and sophistry. Not only that, but Kamm viciously attacks,slanders and publicly libels anyone who disagrees with his ridiculous portrayal of Milosevic as a “Stalinist/Fascist/Nazi supporter of genocide and ethnic cleansing” (See Neil Clark’s blog for proof of this)

    Kamm brushes Izetbegovic’s massive crimes against Serbian civilians aside, sweeps them under the carpet so to speak, by being deafeningly silent on the documented crimes perpetrated by Izetbegovic and his Islamist Nazi warlord Naser Oric, because acknowledging that Izetbegovic was a heinous Nazi mass murderer would mean acknowledging that the so called “neo-cons” in the CFR and their Globalist pro-Islamist agenda vis-a-vis Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia would be exposed.

    Like I wrote earlier:

    I strongly object to people like Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman who say they are all 100% for Israel – which is still, for the time being, a sovereign Jewish nation state – but then in the same breath, by default, support Islamofascist mass murderers of Jews, Romanies and Serbs in the Balkans by de facto siding with their terrorist leaders (eg., Alija Izetbegovic, Ramush Haradinaj, Agim Ceku, Hashim Thaci) who go around killing Jews, Romanies and Serbs by beheading, disembowelment and throat slitting and using the pretext of de facto siding with these terrorists because they allegedly “want to prevent genocide and ethnic cleansing”. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

    Such statements could just as easily be used against Israel in the very near future!

    It is a dire warning to us all!!

    Islam, the Devil’s Cauldron Exploding the myths of Islam
    By Dr William Whiteley

    “Kill a third, deport a third, convert a third” of Yugoslavia’s Serbs, Jews and Roma in wartime Bosnia and Croatia (The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Vladimir Dedijer, Anriman-Verlag, Freiburg, Germany, 1988).

    The most senior Muslim cleric to be involved in the Holocaust/Porajmos was Hajj Amin al-Husseini. According to the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (Edition 1990, Volume 2, Pages 706 and 707) made a substantial contribution to the Axis war effort by organizing (“in record time”) recruitment to Muslim SS units in Croatia that would be involved in some of the worse atrocities of the Second World War.

    It is estimated that some 20,000 Muslims fought in the Hanjar (Sword) SS Division, which fought against Yugoslav partisans led by General Tito, and carried out police and security details in fascist Hungary.

    The Nazi’s recruited two SS divisions from Yugoslavia’s Muslim population, the infamous Bosnian 13th Waffen Hanjar (or Handschar) SS division, and the Albanian Skanderbeg 21st Waffen SS division.

    SS conscription in Yugoslavia during the war produced 42,000 Waffen SS and police troops.

    The Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust states They participated in the massacre of civilians, in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia The Germans made a point of publicizing the fact that Husseini had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo for the sole purpose of giving his blessing to the Muslim army and inspecting its arms and training exercises.

    President of Bosnia “recruited” for the SS Handschar Division Alija Izetbegovic Have you ever wondered why Bosnia never officially accused Croatia of aggression for attacking it as it has done with Yugoslavia?

    What do Bosnian Moslem’s people say about this: “Izetbegovic was Pavelic’s soldier in last war!” (Again blaming some body else for the actions of Islam) According to one article on the web, Ethnic Conflicts in Civil War in Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic, the current President of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is the person who connects the present and the World War II.

    During the World War II, he was also linked to the SS Handschar Division. He joined the organization “Young Muslims” in Sarajevo on March 5, 1943, and is alleged to have engaged as a member of the organization in recruiting young Muslims for Handschar Division in collaboration with German intelligence services (ABWER and GESTAPO).

    Thus, in the spring of 1943, as leader of the Muslim youth in Sarajevo, he welcomed the Nazi collaborator Amin-el Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, to Sarajevo.

    In 1946, however, he was sentenced by the Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years of imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights, because of his fascist activities.

    You do not need more evidence than this to show the hatred that Islam has for the Christians and Jews.

    http://zionsake.tripod.com/Islam-devils_cauldron.htm

    Izetbegovic’s WW2 Nazi SS Handzar SS auxiliary recruiting background via the Islamist “Young Muslims” pro-Nazi organization in Bosnia from early 1943 onwards exposed by anti-fascist researcher Dave Emory in his weekly WFMU Radio show:

    “The Life and Times of Hasan Cengic”

    http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX
    http://www.spitfirelist.com/f568.html

    “After George Bush stated that the United States was involved in a battle against Islamic fascists, a rhetorical firestorm erupted, with people in the U.S. and abroad decrying Bush’s statement. There is an old expression—“even a broken clock is right twice a day.” George W. Bush—a broken clock if every there was one—happened to be correct this time. Illustrating the reality of Islamic fascism, as well as its remarkable continuity over the years, are the life and times of Hasan Cengic. A veteran of the 13th Waffen SS Division during World War II, Cengic worked with Iran, Saudi Arabia and with elements of the U.S. national security establishment during the Balkans wars of the 1990’s. Becoming the deputy defense minister of the newly created Bosnian state, Cengic oversaw the re-creation of the 13th Waffen SS Division in the 1990’s! The newly created Handzhar Division also appears to have played a role in the spreading of the Balkans conflict into Kosovo, where Islamist combatants also recapitulated the fascist fighting formations of World War II.

    Program Highlights Include: Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic’s work on behalf of the Handzhar Division of the World War II era—“Handzhar I”; Izetbegovic’s relationship with Osama bin Laden during the Balkans wars of the 1990’s; Cengic’s relationship with the Iranian fundamentalists while executing his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with the Saudi Islamic fundamentalists during his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with Russian weapons dealer [and U.S. intelligence asset] Viktor Bout during his [Cengic’s] role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with elements of U.S. intelligence during his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; the concrete assistance of a front organization created by Osama bin Laden to the establishment of Hasan Cengic as a key player in Bosnia; the role in the newly-recreated Handzhar Division of ethnic Albanian Muslims, as well as Arab and Pakistani veterans of the Afghan war; the role of “Handzhar II” in force-projection into Kosovo and Macedonia in the 1990’s.

    1. Beginning the overview on the life and times of Hasan Cengic, the broadcast begins with review of the creation and operation of the 13th Waffen SS Division (“Hanjar” or “Handzhar”), one of three Muslim Waffen SS divisions recruited for the Nazis by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Hasan Cengic was a member of the original 13th Waffen SS Division. “ . . . He [the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem] called upon all Muslims to ‘kill the Jews wherever you see them.’ In Tehran’s marketplace, it was common to see placards that declared, ‘In heaven, Allah is your master. On Earth, it is Adolf Hitler.’ When the mufti raised three divisions of Islamic Waffen SS to undertake cruel operations in Bosnia, among the 30,000 killers were some volunteer contingents from Iran. Iranian Nazis, along with the other Muslim Waffen SS, operated under the direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler and were responsible for barbarous actions against Jews and others in Bosnia. Recruitment for the murderous ‘Handschar Divisions’ was done openly in Iran. Iran and its leaders were not only aware of the Holocaust, they played both sides. The country offered overland escape routes for refugee Jews fleeing Nazi persecution to Israel — and later fleeing postwar Iraqi fascist persecution — but only in exchange for extortionate passage fees.” (“Denial of Holocaust Nothing New in Iran Ties to Hitler Led to Plots Against British and Jews” by Edwin Black; San Francisco Chronicle; 1/8/2006; accessed at: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/01/08/INGODGH99Q1.DTL.)

    2. Updating information from FTR#’s 330, 400, 414, the broadcast excerpts the obituary of former Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic, highlighting his association with the SS Handzhar Division in World War II, and the support he received from Osama bin Laden. “ . . .During World War II, when Bosnia became part of the puppet-Nazi state of the Croatian Ustashe, Mr. Izetbegovic joined the Young Muslims, a group torn between siding with the German-sponsored Handzar divisions organized by the German SS or with the Yugoslav communist partisans led by Josip Broz Tito. Mr. Izetbegovic supported the Handzars. After Tito’s Communist government was established in 1946, a military court sentenced Mr. Izetbegovic to three years in prison for his wartime activities. . . .” (“Alija Izetbegovic, Muslim Who Led Bosnia, Dies at 78” by David Binder; The New York Times; 10/20/2003; p. 2.)

    3.“ . . . Osama bin Laden visited him [Izetbegovic] in Sarajevo in 1993 and sponsored some fighters from Arabic countries to fight on the Muslims’ side in Bosnia, according to a report in the German magazine Der Spiegel. . .” (Idem.)

    4. Supplementing previous discussion of the fascist heritage of the government of Alija Izetbegovic (the first president of Bosnia), the broadcast sets forth the background of the first Deputy Defense Minister of Bosnia-Herzogovina. Like Izetbegovic himself, Hasan Cengic was a veteran of the operations of the 13th Waffen SS Division—the Handzar Division. (For more about the subject of the Balkans wars and the reconstitution of Islamic fascism in the Balkans, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 154, 293, and the other broadcasts noted in the descriptions for them. For more about Bosnia and Al Qaeda, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 330, 400, 432. For more about the Balkan SS formations, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 168, 330, 400, 414, 416) “Indicative of Sarajevo’s intentions and priorities is the appointment in January 1996 of Hasan Cengic to the position of Deputy Defense Minister: the man in charge of the implementation of the reorganization. A veteran of the SS Handzar Division during World War II, Cengic is a close personal friend and confidant of Alija Izetbegovic, especially since the time they served together in Yugoslav President Tito’s prison. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] .” (Some Call It Peace: Waiting for War in the Balkans; Yossef Bodansky; Copyright 1996 [SC] by Yossef Bodansky; Published by International Media Corporation Ltd.; ISBN 0-9520070-5-3; p. 39; Note: Although this book has a distinct ideological bias—Clinton bashing—its intelligence data on Bosnian military formations is very credible.)

    5.Bridging the gap between Sunni and Shiite Islamic fascism, Cengic has operated on behalf of the Iranian fundamentalists. “It is always very hard to focus on broad pictures when so many fires are in need of being put out. But it is imperative to keep in mind in the ongoing conflict Iran’s long-standing ties not only to Hezbollah, but to Islamists in Bosnia, a relationship that spans more than a decade. There is concern among Bosnian contacts that, if Iran feels things are going badly in Lebanon and that the war needs another front, it would take little to ignite Bosnia. It would not be hard to do and the international presence in Bosnia is greatly reduced. So is the intelligence capacity developed in the late 1990s. Several key intelligence-gathering units have been dissolved in Bosnia in the past six months, meaning the West is more blind there than any time since the mid-1990s.” (“While Lebanon Boils, Watch Bosnia” by Douglas Farah; 7/19/2006; http://www.douglasfarah.com/article/79/while-lebanon-boils-watch-bosnia.)

    6. “To date Iranian intelligence maintains a huge apparatus in Bosnia and several dozen, if not hundreds, of trainers with the elite units of the Bosnian military. In addition, several hundred mujahadeen who fought in Afghanistan and then Bosnia remain scattered around Bosnia, many of them still with the elite Bosnia units or in the intelligence apparatus. It is worth remembering this heavy Iranian involvement in the Bosnian conflict because it was in Bosnia that al Qaeda developed its template for future operations. One of the most interesting things is that, while the mujahadeen and Bosnian Muslims were supported by Saudi Arabia and many others, much of the aid flowed through Iran, despite the Shi’ite-Sunni divide. The bridge was Hasan Cengic, an Iranian intelligence agent and later Bosnia’s deputy defense minister who has been designated by the U.S. Treasury Department. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] Cengic did some of his earliest weapons deals through Viktor Bout, who flew in hundreds of tons of weapons for the Bosnian Muslims in 1992. He later ‘sold’ Cengic at least one aircraft, and perhaps more.” (Idem.)

    7. More about Cengic’s role as the bridge between Shiia and Sunni Islamic fascists: “Cengic, although working on behalf of Iran, coordinated the Saudi’s multi-hundred million dollar financial support for the Bosnian Muslims as well. There are concrete examples of this. During one period in the late 1990s, Wa’el Julaidan, now designated by both the U.S. and Saudi Arabia as a terrorist financier, received $8 millon from a Cengic-controlled account of the Third World Relief Agency. Julaidan later repaid the money to the TWRA account in a series of smaller payments. Given Iran’s ongoing desire to push a pan-Islamist agenda and the advantages it gains from ongoing turmoil-not only in terms of oil revenues, but in terms of being able to build alliances, move agents and set a pan-Islamist agenda-its leaders could well feel the need to use another arrow from its quiver. But it could be that no one is watching Bosnia as it prepares to burn.” (Idem.)

    8. Continuing the tracking of Hasan Cengic’s career from the Hanjar division of World War II through the Islamic terrorism of the contemporary period, the program notes that Cengic is now a member of the Bosnian parliament, having moved from his position as Deputy Defense Minister. “There is one intriguing detail in the emerging picture of the London bombings that are almost entirely overlooked: The possibility that the high-level explosives came from the Balkans. For several months, Western intelligence officials in Bosnia have been warning their counterparts that high-level plastic explosives have gone missing and were possibly in terrorist hands. One official told me a few months ago that if there were an attack in Europe, it would be very likely the materiel would have been obtained in Bosnia. The big question now is why no one paid attention to the warnings. There remains a small, dedicated group gathering intelligence on these types of operation, but their work is given a low priority and the entire intelligence-gathering structure, providing what little reliable information available on radical Islamic movements and leaders in Bosnia, is slated to disappear at the end of the year.” (“London and the Possible Bosnia Connection” by Andrew Cochran; 7/14/2005; http://counterterror.typepad.com/the_counterterrorism_blog/2005/07/douglas_farah_l.html.)

    9. Note that Cengic was the beneficiary of a “reluctant” U.S. intelligence community in his work arming the Bosnia Islamists. It has long been Mr. Emory’s contention that the U.S. and Britain applied the “Afghan paradigm” in the Balkans. The Muslim Brotherhood and its Al Qaeda offshoot [in Mr. Emory’s opinion] were employed against the Serbian communists, as they had been against the Soviet occupation forces in Afghanistan. The fact that the Bosnian operation was conducted on Bill Clinton’s watch may well account for the reluctance of the Democrats to press the political advantage that they stood to gain from highlighting the GOP’s hard links with the Muslim Brotherhood/Bank al Taqwa/Al Qaeda link exemplified by the Grover Norquist/Karl Rove connection to the Islamic Institute. (For more about this link, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 454, 515.) Note that Cengic worked with Viktor Bout, a wealthy and seemingly ubiquitous Russian arms dealer who also worked hand-in-glove with U.S. in the Balkans and, more recently, in Iraq. “While Western forces continue to scale back their activities in the Balkans and slash their intelligence-gathering capabilities there in the mistaken belief that things are returning to normal, radical Islamists are steadily preparing for renewed activity and are already engaged in acts of violence. The gun that killed Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gough came from the Bosnia. The huge, unsecured stockpiles of weapons and explosives make obtaining these items easy. And there are still militant Islamists in positions of power. The foremost is Hasan Cengic, now in the Bosnia parliament, who was a former deputy defense minister in charge of arming Bosnian Muslims during the Bosnian war. He set up, with the help of a very reluctant U.S. intelligence community, a weapons pipeline that ran primarily through Iran. He was also a director of the Third World Relief Agency, (TWRA), the fake Islamic charity that funneled hundreds of millions of dollars to radical Islamists during that conflict. Much of the money remains unaccounted for. TWRA officially went out of business in 1996, but more than $300 million in assets were not accounted for. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] It is interesting to note that Viktor Bout, happily flying for the U.S. military and KBR in Iraq and Afghanistan, dealt with Cengic often and provided him with at least one aircraft during the Bosnia war.” (Idem.)

    10. “It is often forgotten that Bosnia played an extemely significant role in the formation of al Qaeda, and that the infrastructure established during that war were never erradicated. Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups used Bosnia as a training ground, a financial center, a weapons storage site and a money-laundering center. Bosnia is still an active center for all of those activities. We ignore the obvious signs of danger at our own expense. Maybe the supply of high-grade explosives from the region will finally focus the necessary attention on Bosnia as an unfinished enterprise.” (Idem.)

    11. More about the relationship between Cengic, Viktor Bout and U.S. national security elements: “It seems as though the fingerprints of Viktor Bout, arms trafficker extraordinaire, can be found in most places that have had trouble in recent years. The most recent intelligence reports I received come from Bosnia, and show Bout has been an active partner of Mr. Hasan Cengic, the head of radical Islam in Bosnia and key organized crime figure. Interesting how Bout shows up in numerous Muslim-related conflicts, often where U.S. policy makers are having a particularly difficult time in getting weapons to one side or the other.” (“Viktor Bout’s Excellent Bosnian Adventure” by Douglas Farah; 4/12/2005; http://counterterrorismblog.org/2005/04/viktor_bouts_excellent_bosnian.php.)

    12. “The paper trail left by Bout in Bosnia makes it hard to discern exactly what he was up to there, but in March 2001 he was leasing two Illyushin Il-72s from BIO Air Services, and had them based in Sarjah, UAE. Cengic, on the U.S. Treasury Department’s list of banned individuals and chief arms provider to the Bosnia Muslims during the Bosnia conflict (where al Qaeda and other radical elements, led by Cengic, took control of the lucrative arms trade), controls BIO Air. The European intelligence report says that BIO Air leased two of its aircraft to Bout after illegally importing them into Bosnia in the first place. Before the aircraft were owned by BIO Air they belonged to Atlas Iran. Cengic spent much of the Bosnia war in Iran and worked as an Iranian intelligence agent. . . .” (Idem.)

    13. Cengic has been the beneficiary of support from the CIRKL, and apparent Al Qaeda front organization founded by Sheik Abdel Rahman [convicted in connection with the first attack on the World Trade Center] and Osama bin Laden. “ . . . According to this recent article Ceric is linked to the CIRKL, a funding operation ‘which was in charge of all aid donated to Bosniak Muslims by Islamic countries’ The CIRKL was started by Sheik Abdel Rahman and Osama Bin Laden. Information collected by Austrian and German intelligence agents and published in August 2004 in Banjaluka`s Patriot paper claims that Islamic terrorists, including Osama bin Laden and Sheik Rahman, organized CIRKL, … The group was set up as the only link between the Bosnian Muslim political leadership of the time and its wealthy Islamic benefactors. . . . Instead of the Bosniak government, it was the illegal CIRKL that was in control of all aid donated to the Bosniak nation by Islamic countries. The Bosniak nation is 100 percent financially dependent on the CIRKL. The CIRKL is the absolute master of almost all hard currency,’ according to the intelligence document, which dates back to Nov. 6, 1995, and is labeled top secret. The document also list the key people in the CIRKL in charge of Bosnia as Dr. Fatih al Hassanein, Hasan Cengic, [Italics are Mr. Emory’s] Salim Sabic, Muhamed Catic, Mustafa Ceric, Husein Zivalj, and Senad Sahinpasic…’” (Excerpt from article on Mufti Mustafa Ceric, Grand Mufti of Bosnia; http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/455.)

    14. Under Izetbegovic and Cengic, the Handzar Division was recreated! With the recreation of the Handzar Division in the 1990’s, the life and times of Hasan Cengic arrived at a remarkable point of circuitous continuity—perhaps even closure. “ . . .These are the men of the Handzar division. ‘We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline.’ A Handzar told one U.N. officer. Up to 6,000 strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as their heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Hussein, the grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler. According to U.N. officers, surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo Croation ‘Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo (the Serb province where Albanians are the majority) or from Albania itself.’” (“Albanians and Afghans fight for the heirs to Bosnia’s SS Past” by Robert Fox; Daily Telegraph; 12/29/1993.)

    15. Again, as we reflect on the Balkans war and the events of 9/11, one of the scenarios to be seriously considered is the possibility that elements of US intelligence utilized the “Arab Afghans” (including Al Qaeda) in the Balkans, as they had against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Indeed the geopolitics first practiced by the Third Reich in the “Earth Island” appears to have served as something of a model for what took place in the latter part of the Cold War. America’s erstwhile Islamist and Islamofascist allies later turned against the United States with a vengeance. “They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say U.N. sources. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could mean the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania. Thence to the Albanians of Macedonia. Pakistani fundamentalists are known to have had a strong hand in providing arms and a small weapons industry for the Bosnian Muslims.” (Idem.)

    16. The broadcast presents more about the recreation of the Handzar Division under Izetbegovic and Cengic. Note that the division was trained and led by Afghan and Pakistani veterans. The milieux of Al Qaeda and “Handzar II”—the 1990’s Handzar–overlap. “Another major Islamist force remained: the Handzar Division, named after the 13th SS Handzar Division which served under the German flag in World War II. The current Handzar Division is Sarajevo’s Praetorian Guards, and is comprised of a 2,500 to 3,000 elite force deployed in Sarajevo and a 6,000 to 7,500 strong back-up force at a major training base around Fojnica, but is moved around to augment major fighting fronts. The majority of the troops of the Handzar Division come from the region’s non-Bosnian Muslim minorities, primarily Albanians, and are led by veteran Pakistani and Afghan experts.” (Some Call It Peace: Waiting for War in the Balkans; p. 15.)

    17. Relating more about “Handzar II,” the program notes that the foot soldiers of the unit were largely of Albanian extraction and that they were engaged in force projection into Kosovo and Macedonia. Another area of Islamist activism was Kosovo, with the KLA being the beneficiary of Islamist activity. Many of the combatants in the KLA were the sons and grandsons of members of the 21st Waffen SS or Skanderbeg division. With the KLA/Skanderbeg relationship and with the Handzhar’s force projection into Kosovo and Macedonia, we see a further degree of continuity between the Islamic fascism of the World War II period and the Islamic fascism of today. The “Life and Times of Hasan Cengic” embody this continuity! (For more about Islamism and Kosovo, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 351, 357, 359, 381. For more about the 21st Waffen SS division, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 161, 330, 414.) “In mid-1993 Sarajevo revived the Handzar Division is the Praetorian Guard for President Alija Izetbegovic and other senior leaders in Sarajevo. The Handzar Division is comprised of a 2,500 to 3,000 elite force deployed in Sarajevo and a 6,000 to 7,500 strong back-up force in Fojnica.” (Ibid.; p. 158.)

    18. “Significantly, the majority of the troops of the Handzar Division are not Bosnian Muslims. Instead, they come from the region’s other Muslim minorities, primarily Albanians, and are led by veteran Pakistani and Afghan experts. ‘Surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo-Croatian. Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo or from Albania itself,’ explained UN officers in Fojnica. ‘The Handzars are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could be that the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania, thence to the Albanians of Macedonia.’ These observations, made in late 1993, proved correct. By 1995, the Handzar Division had been transformed into a zealot and combat proven special forces. In many cases, particularly in the surge into western Bosnia-Herzogovina in the Summer-Fall of 1995, they operated in close cooperation with the mujahedin units. The deployment of Albanian veterans and support mujahedin cadres to Albania began in the Fall of 1995.” (Ibid.; pp. 158-159.)

  2. I think it is clear that Kamm continues to vilify Milosovic. He obviously believes his facts and rejects yours and those of Ed Herman and Chomsky. You shouldn’t thus conclude that he is an “islamist wolf” or that he continues to “defend Izetbegovic’s genocide” without specific proof of that defense.

    I agree that it is incumbent on all leaders and opinioin makers who supported the bombing, Kamm included, if they agree with your facts, to acknowledge their error.

    Because of the ongoing controversy all such leaders have an obligation to revisit the allegations and to determine the truth.

    Furthermore they must also deal with the consequences of that bombing to either deny your facts or take a position with respect to them.

    Kamm did not attempt to silence the facts but to stop the defamation.

    I see no reason to believe that Kamm supports Islamofacism. The fact that he supported the bombing of Serbia does not get me there. In a way you impute motive to discredit their facts.

  3. Ted

    Sorry for repeated postings but my mind is being drawn to different aspects of this very complicated situation.

    It is made so complicated because the world has been treated to a mountain of lies about the Serbs, and Kamm and his friends in Britain have been part of this anti-Serb propaganda.

    I take it that it is the first sentence of Nathan that is in question.

    “Beware of the Islamist wolf, Oliver Kamm. Anyone who can support the Bosnian Islamofascist mass murderer, Alija Izetbegovic, is no real friend of the Jews or Israel despite the abundant layers of sheeps clothing.”

    Kamm is called an Islamist wolf here because he supported Izetbegovic.

    He did support Izetbegovic and he did support the Bosnian Islamists.

    And today when we have so much evidence of what these Islamists did to the poor Serb small farmers in their isolated households, and their linking up with Al Qaeda, Kamm and his friends in Britain are working through their silence and blocking tactics on their blogs and Media, to hide this truth.

    That is surely what they are doing and that is surely what has already been proven by Neil, by Nathan and by many others.

    For example Ted read the very sober analysis in Franciscos article which lays all of this out. Is there one word of that which can be disputed.

    And Kamm continues to support all of that Islamist activity because if he did not support it then if he was a principled man he would say…Look I got drawn into this and now I have learned such and such and now I must put the record straight.

    But he does not do that.

    He takes the road of trying to shut up his opponents.

    It really, really is most disgraceful.

    There are many people now in Europe who are trying to get at the truth. They will not stop at Yugoslavia. The best of them will go on to make an analysis of Fatah and Hamas et al.

    Do not pull back. Help them to see what happened in Yugoslavia and what Kamm’s role was and is towards all of that.

    As regards Lantos and Liebermann, the very same applies. If they are real men then they will come clean about the Bosnian Islamists. If they are not real men then the Jewish people need to know.

  4. Ted

    Kamm is not so lily white.

    I read many things on his blog that are really very shall I say evil.

    Last night I read on his blog something about Gerry Healy. Kamm called Healy a bonehead, but he also called him a “Rapist”.

    Healy is now dead. What are the ethics of calling a man a “rapist”.

    Can one call a person, dead or alive, a “rapist” because I am certain that Kamm cannot prove that and it has not been proven anywhere.

  5. Ted

    What I have read of Neil Clark is that he should not be placed in the Guardian camp. I think he is a freelance and his articles appear anywhere he can. Do not confuse the Guardian with its open blogging forum.

    Clark is a good case in point. He has written material which is most useful in explaining that Izetbegovic was an Islamofascist. The importance of Clark in this respect is that this material is on the web, we know that Kamm has seen the material, we know from that that Kamm has at least had a chance to read and study Clark on the points that Clark makes about Izetbegovic and the whole Islamist scene in Bosnia, but that Kamm has refused to answer Clark on any of these points.

    This is terrible important for Jewish people.

    Kamm claims to be for Israel etc, but instead of answering the points about Islamofascism in Bosnia Kamm answered not a point from Clark, and instead turned to attacking Neil Clark and his sources etc.

    But then Kamm was supporting the US and EU attacks on the Serbs who were in turn supporting the Islamofascists of Izetbegovic.

    I ask you Ted where does that place Kamm and many others like him in Britain and in America.

    Then there is this basic proposition that my friends like Nathan keep placing in the front of the discussion:

    How is it possible to support Islamofascism, even at a remove of supporting the US and EU support for Islamofascism, and be opposed to the same Islamofascism which is attacking Israel, and for that matter which is attacking Iraqi working class people.

    That is of course the contradiction.

    That is the contradiction which we will simply not let go of!

    To get out of that contradiction Kamm and his ilk will have to try to dissemble about Izetbegovic.

    That I believe very strongly is what is happening.

    Ted you are from the right of Canadian and American politics as are Jerry, Bill et al.

    But you are first and foremost Jewish people. Jews have nowhere left to run to. This is the objective basis for your openness in political debate.

    This debate about Yugoslavia cannot be closed.

    OK Clark may have bought into the Palestinian lie machine and myth. But do you not see where this is leading Clark. He is going to also have to make a serious analysis of Palestinianism, its roots in the Balkans actually under Hajj Amin el Husseini. Clark also is caught in the cobweb. To progress he can only go in one direction, and that is to analyse again what is meant by Zionism, which is the oldest national liberation struggle the world has ever seen.

    Clark represents many on the Left. Me for example!

    Ted you write:

    “Furthermore if Neil Clark who writes for the Guardian and is an enemy of Israel, is at logger heads with Kamm, Kamm must be doing something right.

    You would not believe how superficial that statement comes across to me.

    If we can prove that Kamm is hiding all the material about Tudjman, about Izetbegovic, about the KLA, and the merest glance at his blog would indicate that he is not exactly bursting to tell us the whole story about the Balkans, but on the other hand we see Clark doing so, then who do we go with! We go with Clark! We may not agree with Clark on Israel. But we go with Clark on his evidence about Yugoslavia. Then we see.

    You see Ted your attitude to Clarke above shows your weakness. You in your approach to what happened in Yugoslavia are taking a very narrow nationalist petty-minded view.

    I said earlier to that incomprehensible man Yoram, it is not “you scatch my back I scratch yours”. Jews must support Serbs because they are right, Serbs vice versa. The poor fella did not even understand me!

    (For goodness sake Yoram do not come back in here. I cannot take more from you. I retract that if it will avoid me having to see you again!)

    Just let us find out Ted what happened there!

  6. The more I read and the more I reflect on Nathan’s attack on Oliver Kamm, the more I want to distance myself and condemn it. Nathan has lost it. He has become hysterical in his zeal. His attack was egregious and greatly defammatory. And those that endorsed his attack are equally wrong.

    I greatly respect the work they have done to ferret out the facts and make them public. They as well as others have put the lie to the commonly held narrative. That being said, one should not condemn all people who supported the bombing of Serbia for being supporters of mass murderers or ethnic cleansers and Islamist wolves.

    To further call into question his friendship of the Jews is outrageous. Oliver Kamm has a long history of protecting Jews and Israel and nothing in his position on Serbia tarnishes that record.

    Finally Nathan should never have written “Kamm,…has the brazen audacity to defend Izetbegovic’s genocide against the Christian Serbs during the 90’scan take away from that fact.” Nathan has offered nothing to substantiate this calumny and he should retract it.

    Not only is Kamm the object of his attack but he includes Leiberman and Lantos among others. Nathan. These are good people. Get a grip.

    In further defence of Kamm he has a long standing feud with Chomsky and often takes him on with respect to many of his far left opinions in general and his attacks on Israel. Furthermore if Neil Clark who writes for the Guardian and is an enemy of Israel, is at logger heads with Kamm, Kamm must be doing something right.

    Finally Kamm has written in support of GWB and the Iraq war. How many Liberals can you say that about? Lastly, Melanie Phillips seems to think he’s OK.

  7. Felix asks why the bombing of Serbia which Kamm supported, should not be held against him. It is one thing to say to such supporters, look what you wrought. It is another thing to accuse them desiring such an outcome. As we know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    Many Israelis supported the Oslo accords which essentially invited into Israel its greatest enemy Arafat to lead a peace process. Arafat brought death and destruction to israel. It is one thing to tell the Oslo supporters, look what you wrought by your foolishness. Its another thing to blame them for the consequences thought they of course brought them about.

    Similarly we could claim that the left in Israel are the enemy of Israel because they favour the peace process.

    All I can say to that is that their actions have a good intent but a bad effect.

    There are of course some of them that also have a bad intent and want the end of Israel. One must distinguish between them.

  8. LOL Did I say in the above Oric Nasir! It should of course be Nasir Oric!

    It is worthwhile reading up on this and to question why the Hague Court let this man go. And ask what Has Kamm ever written about this Toronto Star report. That would interest me a lot!

    A Reporter’s Account of an Evening Spent with Nasir Oric, the Muslim Commander in Srebrenica

    Original title, ‘Fearsome Muslim warlord eludes Bosnian Serb forces’
    Toronto Star, July 16, 1995
    By Bill Schiller

    BELGRADE, Yugoslavia – When Bosnian Serb commander Gen. Ratko Mladic swept triumphantly into Srebrenica last week, he not only wanted to sweep Srebrenica clean of Muslims – he wanted Nasir Oric.

    In Mladic’s view, the powerfully built Muslim commander had made life too difficult and too deadly for Serb communities nearby.

    Even though the Serbs had Srebrenica surrounded, Oric was still mounting commando raids by night against Serb targets.

    Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as ever crossed a battlefield, escaped Srebrenica before it fell. Some believe he may be leading the Bosnian Muslim forces in the nearby enclaves of Zepa and Gorazde. Last night these forces seized armored personnel carriers and other weapons from U.N. peacekeepers in order to better protect themselves.

    Oric is a fearsome man, and proud of it.

    I met him in January, 1994, in his own home in Serb-surrounded Srebrenica.

    On a cold and snowy night, I sat in his living room watching a shocking video version of what might have been called Nasir Oric’s Greatest Hits.

    There were burning houses, dead bodies, severed heads, and people fleeing.

    Oric grinned throughout, admiring his handiwork.

    “We ambushed them,” he said when a number of dead Serbs appeared on the screen.

    The next sequence of dead bodies had been done in by explosives: “We launched those guys to the moon,” he boasted.

    When footage of a bullet-marked ghost town appeared without any visible bodies, Oric hastened to announce: “We killed 114 Serbs there.”

    Later there were celebrations, with singers with wobbly voices chanting his praises.

    These video reminiscences, apparently, were from what Muslims regard as Oric’s glory days. That was before most of eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica became a “safe zone” with U.N. peacekeepers inside – and Serbs on the outside.

    Lately, however, Oric increased his hit-and-run attacks at night. And in Mladic’s view, it was far too successful for a community that was supposed to be suppressed.

    The Serbs regard Oric, once Serb President Slobodan Milosevic’s personal bodyguard, as a war criminal.

    But they don’t want to send him to the international war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands. They want to track him down and kill him.

    The only songs they want sung of Nasir Oric are funeral dirges.

    Read the whole article on the wonderful website Emperors New Clothes, an everlasting memorial to truthful reporting.
    http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm

  9. Because of the controversy which has grown out of this thread I have given more thought to this issue.

    I notice in more detail the way that Phillips raises the name of Kamm. The picture she paints of this notorious conference hosted by Livingstone is this: On the one hand there is the whole pro-Islamist renegades led by Livingstone, and his credentials on this can hardly be disputed. On the other side there is Pipes, somebody else I had not heard of before, AND Oliver Kamm.

    And I do not think that anything could be clearer as regards the impression being created by Phillips. That Kamm was a leading fighter against Islamism or Islamofascism.

    Am I wrong in reaching this conclusion on what Ms Phillips has written?

    And what I am saying is that this is simply not true, if we are to go on the record of Kamm, and his support for the destruction of Yugoslavia by NATO, for the bringing to trial of Slobodan Milosevic who was the President of Yugoslavia and for much else.

    Because during this whole operation to destroy Yugoslavia the US entered into a type of coalition with the Islamofascists of Bosnia led by Izetbegovic.

    The US is shown by accurate evidence that it ferried Islamofascist killers from Arab and Iranian lands into the fight in Bosnia and we have evidence, photographic evidence of a type that you would not allow the children to see, of the terrible deeds done by the Bosnian and Arabian Islamofascists against Serb civilians.

    At another level in Bosnia we have the evidence of a Bosnian Islamofascist commander (Oric Nasir) of the Bosnian Army led by Izetbegovic who shows videos and talks to reporters about decapitatiing and murdering Serb people, and it seems that there were Serb civilians among his victims and perhaps indeed mainly Serb civilians, most likely small farmers because the bulk of the Serbs in Bosnia are that, and often live in isolated homesteads, as they have done for centuries.

    These were the type of forces and people that the American Government and the EU lined up with against the Serb people led by Milosevic and the excuse now being put about by Oliver Kamm and many others is that they wanted to defeat Milosevic and that they were unaware who they were allied with.

    But surely NOW they have read all of the evidence that has been gathered by many sources about the nature of these Bosnian Islamofascists led by Izetbegovic and surely now that they have read all of this, including the report on Nasir Oric, surely now for goodness sake if they are honest people they will say “Hey, we got this very wrong, we did not know who we were allied with and we issue a deep apology to the Serb people and to the relatives of Slobodan Milosevic”

    Not that an apology can be greatly appreciated by somebody if they are dead, murdered by the very people you have allied with.

    If you want to find out who this guy Izetbegovic what might the first step be that you would take!?

    If you knew nothing about the guy then I think the first step might be to google his name and if there is a suggestion of Islamofascist you might add Islamist. When I just today entered the two words in the Google Box what came out at the very head of the page was the following. Note I did not have to do any scanning. It was number 1 at the top.

    It says:

    President Alija Izetbegovic’s Islamic Declaration, first published in 1970 when it earned him a prison sentence, demanded a fully-fundamentalist Muslim …
    http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/alija.html – 27k – En caché – Páginas similares

    And when I press the button again, this is what I find about Mr Izetbegovic. It seems that he has written a declaration of his principles some of which are:

    “The implementation of Islam in all fields of individuals’ personal lives, in family and in society, by renewal of the Islamic religious thought and creating a uniform Muslim community from Morocco to Indonesia. …”

    page 3

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… A nation, and an individual, who has accepted Islam is incapable of living and dying for another ideal after that fact. It is unthinkable for a Muslim to sacrifice himself for any tzar or ruler, no matter what his name may be, or for the glory of any nation, party or some such, because acting on the strongest Muslim instinct he recognizes in this a certain type of godlessness and idolatry. A Muslim can die only with the name of Allah on his lips and for the glory of Islam, or he may run away from the battlefield. …”

    page 4

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… Muslim nations will never accept anything that is explicitly against Islam, because Islam here is not merely a faith and the law, Islam has become love and compassion. He who rises against Islam will reap nothing but hate and resistance. …”

    page 17

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… In perspective, there is but one way out in sight: creation and gathering of a new intelligence which thinks and feels along Islamic lines. This intelligence would then raise the flag of the Islamic order and together with the Muslim masses embark into action to implement this order. …”

    page 18

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… The shortest definition of the Islamic order defines it as a unity of faith and law, upbringing and force, ideals and interests, spiritual community and state, free will and force. As a synthesis of these components, the Islamic order has two fundamental premises: an Islamic society and Islamic authority. The former is the essence, and the latter the form of an Islamic order. An Islamic society without Islamic power is incomplete and weak; Islamic power without an Islamic society is either a utopia or violence.

    A Muslim generally does not exist as an individual. If he wishes to live and survive as a Muslim, he must create an environment, a community, an order. He must change the world or be changed himself. History knows of no true Islamic movement which was not at the same time a political movement as well. This is because Islam is a faith, but also a philosophy, a set of moral codes, an order of things, a style, an atmosphere – in a nutshell, an integral way of life. …”

    page 19

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non-Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the “Islamic faith” and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. … Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. …”

    page 22

    ——————————————————————————–

    ” Islam contains the principle of ummet, i.e. the tendency towards unification of all Muslims into a single community – a spiritual, cultural and political community. Islam is not a nationality, it is above nationalities. …”

    page 27

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… The upbringing of the nation, and especially the mass media – the press, TV and film – should be in the hands of people whose Islamic moral and intellectual authority is undisputed. …

    … Islamic renewal cannot be initiated without a religious, and cannot be successfully continued and concluded without a political revolution.”

    page 32

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… Establishing of an Islamic order is thus shown as the ultimate act of democracy, because it means the implementation of the deepest desires of the Muslim nations and common man. One thing is certain: no matter what a part of the rich and the intelligence wants, the common man wants Islam and living in his Islamic community. …”

    page 33

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… In the struggle for an Islamic order all methods are permitted, except one – except crime. No-one has the right to smear the beautiful name of Islam and this struggle by uncontrolled and excessive use of violence. …”

    page 37

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… Islamic order may be implemented only in countries where Muslims represent the majority of the population. Without this majority, the Islamic order is reduced to authority only (because the other element is lacking – the Islamic society), and may turn into violence. …”

    page 37

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… the Islamic movement should and must start taking over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough to not only overthrow the existing non-Islamic, but also to build up a new Islamic authority. …”

    page 43

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… Pakistan was a general rehearsal of introducing Islamic order under modern conditions and on the present stage of development. …

    … The conclusions from the twenty-odd year of Pakistan’s existence are clear enough. They are:

    First, the struggle for Islamic order and a general reconstruction of the Muslim society can be successfully conducted only by experienced and seasoned individuals, aligned into a staunch and homogenous organization. This organization is no political party from the arsenal of the Western democracy; it is a movement based on Islamic ideology and with clear moral and ideological criteria of belonging;

    Second, the struggle for an Islamic order today is a struggle to implement the essence of Islam, and this means that in practice one must ensure religious and moral upbringing of the people and provide for basic elements of social justice. At this time, forms are of secondary importance; and

    Third, the functions of the Islamic republic are not to primarily declare equality of all men and brotherhood of all Muslims, but to struggle for some of these high moral principles in practice. The awakened Islam should in every community take into its own hands the flag for a more just social order and to clearly state that in struggling for Islam another war is being declared as well, the one against ignorance, injustice and poverty, a war without compromises and setbacks. …”

    pages 45-46

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… In one of the thesis for an Islamic order today we have stated that it is a natural function of the Islamic order to gather all Muslims and Muslim communities throughout the world into one. Under present conditions, this desire means a struggle for creating a great Islamic federation from Morocco to Indonesia, from the tropical Africa to the Central Asia. …”

    page 46

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… Panislamism always came from the very heart of the Muslim peoples, nationalism was always imported stuff. …”

    page 49

    ——————————————————————————–

    “… But, under the leadership of Zionists, started an action in Palestine which is not only inhumane and ruthless but also shortsighted and adventuresome. This politics takes in account only temporary ratio of power and forgets about overall ratio of power between Jews and Muslims in the world. This politics in Palestine is a provocation to all Muslims of the world. Jerusalem is not only a question of Palestinians, neither is it a question of Arabs only. It is a question of all the Muslim nations. TO KEEP JERUSALEM, THE JEWS WOULD HAVE TO DEFEAT ISLAM AND THE MUSLIMS, AND THAT – THANK GOD – IS OUTSIDE THEIR POWER.”

    This is the type of politics that the US and the EU were supporting in order to ensure the break-up of Yugoslavia and the destruction of the last remains of communism.

    From this I earlier drew a basic rule which went something like: If it is in the interests of the US and the EU Empire to support Islamofascist Jihad then it will do so”.

    What I conclude from the above is that this Mr Izetbegovic was an Islamofascist. I do not have to strain my intelligence very much to see this.

    But moreover it is inconceivable that the US and EU with all their massive resources could not put together this basic information about who and what he was.

    Of course they knew! The question is now. Even to this day, as far as I am aware, Kamm has not addressed this issue of Izetbegovic being an Islamofascist. Does he believe Izetbegovic to be something other than an Islamofascist?

    If words mean anything what do the words above which I have placed in shaded block mean?

    In what way then is the Bosnian Islamofascist Government any different from say Hamas?

    And what then are we to make of people who say that they support the Bosnian Islamofascist regime in the Balkans but are opposed to Islamofascism in the Middle East!

    So then this lady friend of Ted above writes:

    “I have not corresponded with Oliver in some time, but I can assure you in no uncertain terms that he is a supporter of the Jewish people, of Israel and of human rights. Terming Oliver Kamm an enemy of the Jewish people is definitely a libel. He has written extensively in favor of the Jewish people and Israel and is a past, present and (undoubtedly) future friend.

    The fact that Oliver supported western bombing in Bosnia should not be held against him. “

    I wish to ask this friend of yours Ted why not? Why should it not be held against Kamm?

    As the lady says he has supported western bombing in Bosnia. Well a bit more than that is it not. Has he not also supported the alliance which the west made with the above Izetbegovic, and what the evidence above seems to prove, Islamofascist Government.

    As Israelis look over the nearby hills and see a horde of similar Islamofascists being assembled, under the guidance of Rice and Bush in the form of a Palestine Jihadist state, intent on obliterating Israel, in the way not unconnected with how Yugoslavia was obliterated, why the hell should we not hold that against Kamm and all the others in the circle around Kamm which seems to me to be particularly strong in Britain. I would tentatively suggest placing the loquacious website Harrys Place in that group.

    This is what genuinely puzzles me about all of this. I mean it is not every day in the week that a country, Yugoslavia, simply disappears off the map. Should Jewish people NOT ask questions? And if evidence is produced should it not be answered. Rather than firing threats to sue a Jewish website about the place.

    As one Irishman to a Brit, all I can say to Kamm is:

    Shame on you!

  10. Oliver Kamm wrote to complain about what has been alledged in these comments,

    Your contributors, instead of stating factually my position on this issue, call me an “Islamist wolf” who “pretends to be pro-Israel” but is an “enemy of the Jewish people”. Beyond these characteristics [..]
    – I am supposedly a supporter of “Nazi mass murderers of Jews and Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo” and defend “genocide and ethnic cleansing”.

    I agree with him that such charges are unacceptable and wrong.

    A mutual friend of ours whom I greatly respect, wrote to say

    I have not corresponded with Oliver in some time, but I can assure you in no uncertain terms that he is a supporter of the Jewish people, of Israel and of human rights. Terming Oliver Kamm an enemy of the Jewish people is definitely a libel. He has written extensively in favor of the Jewish people and Israel and is a past, present and (undoubtedly) future friend.

    The fact that Oliver supported western bombing in Bosnia should not be held against him.

    I fully agree with her.

    I also agree with Felix and Nathan who argue that

    1. Izetbegovic was a Nazi supporter and an Islamofascist.
    2. That Milocovic was not the monster he was made out to be by the West
    3. That as a result of the NATO intervention Islamists came to power in Kosovo and effected ethnic cleansing and mass killings.

    That is not to say that all supporters of Izetbegovic intended this to happen. They didn’t.

    It is also not to say that all supporters of western bombing were supporters of Izetbegovic.

    But as Lawrence Summers said regarding divestments initiatives, they are “anti-Semitic in their effect if not in their intent,”. Similarly the intervention by NATO, had the effect of empowering Islamofascists, ethnic cleansing and even mass murder of Serbs, though it may not have been the intent.

    Not for a moment do I attribute that intent to Kamm, nor do I think that Felix and Nathan should.

  11. Keelie,

    Yes, you are absolutely right. Israel has nukes and those are the only reasons why – apart from love of Israel by the wonderful American people – that NATO/EU governments or the Muslim Arabs have not dared to bomb Israel – yet.

    As far as an alliance between Serbia and Israel, look at my comments on this thread.

    The people of Serbia – depsite their love for the Jewish people & Israel – are in a hopeless situation, being held hostage by a Washington/Brussels pro-EU/NATO puppet government installed by Washington in an illegal coup in October 2000.

    The EU/NATO is pro-Arab and anti-Israel.
    Until this pro-EU/NATO Washington puppet government in Serbia is removed from office, such an alliance will be worth only as much as Israel’s alliance with other EU governments would be worth: in other words, not worth the paper it is written on.

  12. Nathan,

    I’m definitely in agreement with what you say; the whole climate of lies simply takes the breath away.

    But what I’m saying is that unlike the Serbs, the Israelis have what some call the “Samson Option,” and the rest of the world ought to consider that… unless of course they are too stupid or too arrogant (or both) to pay close attention to it.

    Perhaps Serbia is another alliance that the Israelis should be working on, although it’s somewhat late…

  13. Keelie,

    there may be superficial qualitative differences (eg the Islamofascists the Serbs have been fighting since the early 80’s in Kosovo,Raska and Bosnia are not Arabs or Persians) but the parallels are too many to be ignored and more importantly, the essential principles of fascism vs anti-fascism are the same.

    For an insightful and very well informed Jewish and Israeli Zionist view of the reasons for Western government and corporate media support of Islamism and Nazism in the forced breakup of Yugoslavia and its inextricably linked connection to Western government policies towards Israel and the Jewish people, Yohanan Ramati, the Director of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defense, has written a number of highly revealing articles which throw a very bright spotlight on the deception and lies perpetrated by Western governments and media against both Serbia and Israel.

    Yohanan Ramati made this crucially important connection between Western policy vis-a-vis Israel and the Muslim Arabs with its parallel in Western government policy towards Yugoslavia/Serbia – the Western support for Bosnian and Albanian Islamists in Bosnia/Kosovo and Croat neo-Ustasha Nazis in Croatia/Krajina – all the way back in the early 1990’s in New York’s “Midstream – A Monthly Jewish Review” magazine.

    Yohanan Ramati is described by respected and distinguished specialists in the field as “an expert on global affairs, including the threat of Islam”.

    Note especially Ramati’s comment: “Those deliberately promoting radical Islam in Europe will promote radicalism and Islam everywhere.”

    That preceding statement by Ramati is of course referring to the type of people Felix and I have exposed on Israpundit: Oliver Kamm and Michael Ignatieff – hypocrites and Islamist wolves in sheep’s clothing who pretend to be friends of the Jews and Israel whilst simultaneously supporting Islamofascists and Nazi mass murderers of Jews and Serbs in Kosovo and Bosnia (both Kamm & Ignatieff have defended the Ceku/Haradinaj/Thaci KLA Islamofascists in Kosovo and the Izetbegovic SDA Islamofascists in Bosnia in their genocide and ethnic cleansing of 350,000 people – including the brutal expulsion of the entire Jewish community in Pristina – since EU/NATO troops & UN officials took over the province of Kosovo in June ’99).

    Here’s Ramati explaining the principles and similarities in his article: “Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics”

    Statesmen, politicians and journalists have lied deliberately throughout human history. Indeed, human history, usually written by unprincipled victors, contains so many falsehoods that the search for truth often becomes an impossible task. Even the currently accepted axioms are false. the lies of democratic statesmen are often as monumental as the lies of the most tyrannical dictators. In both cases, the motives are love of power and greed.

    The age of rapid air transportation, television and computers has created a world in which cheating all the people all the time is easier than at any time in history, while cheating most people most of the time is the normative political phenomenon.

    So truth has become what Washington wants it to be. When it does not correspond to the facts, the facts are buried beneath a barrage of television, radio and press propaganda kowtowing to Big Brother.

    In principle, there is little to distinguish today’s US propaganda about the Yugoslav crisis or West European propaganda about the Middle East crisis (with which the US is often in tactic sympathy) from the propaganda of Goebbels, Stalin or, for that matter, the Ayatollah Khomeini and Saddam Hussein. The lies are equally outrageous, the half-truths are equally misleading and the goals are fundamentally the same – more power and more money for those who dictate policy.

    US policy-makers and power brokers protect themselves by a smoke screen of lies disseminated in the press and media.

    This comparative case study is necessary not only because the parallels between the history of Serbia and the history of the Jews in the land of King David and King Solomon are too many to be ignored, but also since the attitude of the Western powers – and in particular the US – to both the Yugoslav and the Middle Eastern crisis is largely determined by the pro-Muslim bias of their policy-makers and power brokers.

    Whether or not the Albanians in Kosovo claim to have been there before the Serbs – in fancy dress or otherwise – the facts remain that the cradle of Serb nationalism is in Kosovo, while the cradle of Jewish nationalism is in Judea and Samaria – in Hebron, Jerusalem, Jericho and Shiloh. Kosovo was ethnically cleansed of most of its Serbs. Judea and Samaria were ethnically cleansed of most of their Jews. But this cannot wipe out history and the respective Serb and Jewish claims to these regions.

    More recent parallels are even more telling. Both Serbs and Jews fought the Nazis during the Second World War and both Serbs and Jews were the victims of persecution and murder by Hitler and his allies – the Croat “Ustashis” and the Bosnian Muslims. Moreover, the Arabs of the Middle East openly supported Hitler whenever an opportunity arose. Yet both Serbia and Israel were and are being pressed by the Western powers to make territorial concessions to their old-new enemies.

    This pressure, which Israel has experienced since its birth in 1948 and Yugoslavia since its dismemberment by American-German fair, has been exerted with the assistance of lying propaganda in the Western media, which utilize the ability technological progress has given them to brainwash ever-increasing masses of the world’s population.

    This organized anti-Serb and pro-Muslim propaganda should cause anyone believing in democracy and free speech serious concern. It recalls Hitler’s propaganda against Allies in World War II. Facts are twisted and, when convenient, disregarded. The selectivity in reporting and comment is far too blatant to be accidental.

    The well-orchestrated and well-engineered demonization of the Serbs is a warning to all Jews who want Israel to continue to exist. Israel can become a target. Why are Muslim states (unless attacked by other Muslim states) usually portrayed as innocent victims of aggression? why are the outrages they commit ignored or condoned? Is it because media editors, reporters and commentators in democratic states are afraid to risk the wrath of financiers and oil interests sponsoring them? Is democratic public opinion controlled by the few for their own profit?

    For Israelis (and some other people usually at the receiving end of similar machinations and hate propaganda, like the Maronite Christians of Lebanon or the whites and the Zulus of South Africa) the answer to this question – i.e. the nature and motives of the perpetrators – could be a matter of life and death. Those deliberately promoting radical Islam in Europe will promote radicalism and Islam everywhere. And the Western partners in this venture believe in the power of money far too much to realize that they are creating a menace that will eventually eliminate them too.

    The role of the media in general, and the American media in particular, while these events were occurring was to justify US policy.

    In the US, where the general public still does not really like Hitler’s World War II allies and dislikes foreign interventions on behalf of authoritarian states with no pro-American record, this required an organized campaign promoting hatred of Serbs by every technological means and propaganda trick available, whitewashing Croats and depicting the Bosnian Muslims as peace loving and US-loving democrats whose women and children were being killed by Serb war criminals. The technique of the Goebbelsian “Big Lie” was applied shamelessly, ruthlessly and effectively.

  14. I think there’s a qualitative difference between the Yugoslavian situation and the Israeli situation… but that’s a whole other arguement… Ultimately this whole layer of liars and hypocrites will be dealt with…

    Which brings me to the topic in the article.

    Melanie Phillips’ article is very interesting. It does seem, as she says, that despite the overt bluster from the “loonie left” there’s a great discomfort about Islam (and/or Islamists) lurking under the surface of many people – even those who talk the talk about “Palestine” and all that. From what I read, it only takes someone of honest disposition to let people open up to the truth.

    Now, I just read that Hilary Clinton fancies modelling herself after Margaret Thatcher – the Iron Lady. I myself must admit that until now I felt a huge antipathy for Ms Clinton, most likely based on an antipathy I have for Mr. Clinton. But when I view the lady, I have to admit that the “iron look” she has, and which I felt was a turn-off, may actually signify something: the ability to say it like it is and make it stick.

    Now when you add what Melanie Phillips said about this “discomfort” waiting to be scratched aside, it could be that Clinton – through some blunt Thatcheresque talk – could just be the person to shake the Democrat supporters out of their stupor, just like Pipes did. And this possibility is all the more interesting BECAUSE she’s a “liberal” Democrat just like her hubby. ABut perhaps not so liberal.

    And perhaps if she started talking the Thatcher way before the primaries she would “break through” to the people and start an avalanche of straight talk. Perhaps.

    Overall, truly intelligent women tend to have a far more incisive outlook on the world (read – human survival) than do men.

    So I’m rethinking my prejudices…

  15. Felix, you are absolutely 100% correct. Here are the kind of people the UN,EU/NATO governments, Oliver Kamm, Michael Ignatieff, Marko Attilo Hoare, British website “Harry’s Place”, Senators Joseph Biden & Joseph Lieberman, Congressmen Tom Lantos, Benjamin Gilman, Henry Hyde, Eliot Engel,Frank R.Wolf,Steny Hoyer et al, support giving independence to in Kosovo (click on the links below):

    KLA Cut Off People’s Heads: Murderers’ Bloody Feast!! (photo of UN backed & funded “Kosovo Protection Corps” KLA members smiling with cut off Serbians’ heads)

    Persecution of Kosovo Christians Said to Reveal Larger Threat (Video of Islamofascist Kosovo Albanians engaging in ‘Kristallnacht’ style pogroms against the Serbs: desecrating dozens of Orthodox Christian churches as EU/NATO troops & UN officials do nothing but watch )

    UN & EU/NATO backed former self-styled “Prime Minister of Kosovo” Ramush Haradinaj: mass murderer of civilians in Kosovo in 1998, including children in a cafe, freed after serving no time in prison by the Hague ICTY “war crimes tribunal” kangaroo court, at the insistence of KLA & Albanian mafia largesse beneficiary, ex-Assistant Secretary of State under Clinton: Richard Holbrooke(Link contains photos of the corpses floating in a canal)

    Recent guest of Condoleeza Rice in Washington: UN & EU/NATO backed self-styled current “Prime Minister of Kosovo”, former Croatian “Operation Storm” commander under the fascist anti-Semitic Holocaust denier, Franjo Tudjman in 1995: ethnic Albanian and KLA military commander in 1999, Agim Ceku and his bloody crimes in Croatia against Serbian civilians in Operation “Medak Pocket” in 1993, witnessed by Canadian UN peacekeepers

    Serbian lobbying group, American Council For Kosovo, protests recent visit to Washington by former KLA military commander and mass murderer of Serbs in Croatian Ustasha Nazi “Operation Storm” ethnic cleansing campaign, Agim Ceku, invited to Washington at the insistence of Rice.

  16. I agree.

    And it is not just Kamm, but it is a whole layer of people who do this.

    There are many people who say they support the Jewish cause in the Middle East but when it comes to the Serbs are on the side of the Croatian fascists of Tudjman and the Islamofascists of Izetbegovic.

    There is a Jihad against Israel and Jews in the Middle East and there is a Jihad against the Serb Christians and Communists in what was Yugoslavia.

    It is this Jihad against the Serbs which has been denied.

    Kamm is one of the leaders of this denial, as is the whole of the leadership in the website in Britain called Harrys Place.

    They are favourable to Israel they say, some of them, but are the bitter enemies of the Serbs and justify the Jihad against the Serbs.

    And they will now be getting ready to cheer whenever Kosovo is handed over to Greater Albania which was the aim of the Albanian Fascists in the 30s and 40s.

    But it is impossible. Time will expose these agents of the Jihad.

  17. (and elsewhere in this jamboree, Oliver Kamm)

    Beware of the Islamist wolf, Oliver Kamm. Anyone who can support the Bosnian Islamofascist mass murderer, Alija Izetbegovic, is no real friend of the Jews or Israel despite the abundant layers of sheeps clothing.

    Kamm, as a supposed friend of the Jews, even has the brazen audacity to defend Izetbegovic’s genocide against the Christian Serbs during the 90’s and even denies Izetbegovic’s WW2 SS Nazi Muslim “Handzar” division background as an SS auxiliary member of this notorious division, via his recruiting activities in the Islamist Nazi Bosnian “Young Muslims” organization, in early 1943!

    Izetbegovic acted as an SS auxiliary by volunteering as a prime recruiter for the 20,000 plus strong Himmler-created Waffen SS “Handzar” division during WW2 in Bosnia.Kamm denies this irrefutable fact of history.

    50 years later, in early 1993, Izetbegovic even named his 6,000 plus strong personal praetorian body guards the “Handzar” division in honor of the WW2 Handzar Muslim SS division which was notorious for its heinous atrocities against Serbs, Jews and Roma!!

    Kamm of course either denies or tries to whitewash all of this by giving it his own personal “spin” on history.

    If Kamm can support Islamofascism in Bosnia over a period of 15 years, he cannot be trusted not to support it in the Middle East, despite outward appearances.

    Oliver Kamm is similar to Michael Ignatieff (although far less clumsy & more subtle in public): both of them pretending to be pro-Israel but in reality Islamist wolves in sheep’s clothing and enemies of the Jewish people.

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