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May 30, 2022 | 53 Comments »

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50 Comments / 53 Comments

  1. Reader I was third to post after Ted Belman and Peloni who were all for This new plan/initiative

    What I wrote still is central

    “

    This is not a political party which speaks

    They have moved into a space which is a vacuum.”

    I had in mind obviously the lessons of the Civil War

    2000 Pogroms. Jews caught in desperation. The October Revolution gave the basis for the Red Army and VICTORY. Trotsky led this political fight.

    The victorious Red Army was made up of raw peasants with their Antisemitic prejudices.

    And yet Bolshevism won.

    A typical example of the white propaganda had Trotsky leading Jesus to be crucified.

    For the Jews though AS TODAY it was a simple matter of live or die.

    We need a party just like that today but BETTER because after all the Bolsheviks were just starting too and we today can learn and be better.

    Without a party based on those lessons then nothing will come from these stunts and mind games.

    In Israel there is no army because there is no party to lead that army.

    Back to those few words I began with.

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  2. @Reader and Britain (allied with the Jewish Legion in North Africa) and America played just as big a role in North Africa and Europe. Germany was fighting a 3 front war, actually, which was stupid in retrospect. and America and the Yishuv were the breadbaskets for the others. German tanks ran out of gas.
    Stalin probably intended a mini-Holocaust of his own but was mercifully killed probably on Purim and so it didn’t happen. Most of the Jews who were in Nazi occupied territory did not survive. So, there’s no reason to be so triumphant about it.

  3. @Reader That kind of speculation is in the realm of science fiction and unknowable because for all we know the rise of fascism, including Nazism, was a reaction to the Soviet Uhion. Moreover, for a brief moment, The Soviet Union was allied with Nazi Germany and that could have gone either way, as well, if HItler hadn’t foolishly opted for a 2 front war.

  4. @Sebastien Zorn

    Russia and later the Soviet Union was an empire, an evil empire

    If not for that evil empire we wouldn’t be talking to each other right now because the Final Solution would really become final.

    Germany was a lot more evil than the USSR, yet everyone just loves Germany and the word “Nazi” is taboo.

  5. @Reader so what? Ukraine wasn’t a country. “His” territory was about the size of the Netherlands. Big enough. Russia and later the Soviet Union was an empire, an evil empire to quote Reagan.

  6. @Sebastien Zorn

    Makhno NEVER ruled over the whole Ukraine.

    His area was where the Russians are fighting now in the southern Ukraine

    He was a minor figure and there were numerous armies and bands roaming the country at the time.

  8. @Sebastien Zorn

    Thank God the Soviets prevailed, right?

    Well, if they didn’t prevail, the country would be torn apart among the Western powers and warring bands a la Makhno.

    I don’t hate whole countries.

    Why don’t you hate France for what it did to the poor king and the beautiful and harmless aristocrats?

  9. @Reader It was not a small area, he fought the foreign invaders first, created a functioning society like kibbutzes eather than labor camps, Thank God the Soviets prevailed, right? Trotsky also had nothing but praise for Sverdlov, one of the architects of the Cheka and the red terror. Trotsky was the Bolshevik minister of war. He organized the red army. I guess you still support the Soviet rwgime but they were all murdering bastards. You didn’t read the article, either. What Teotsky did to the Makhnovschina I cited as an example of how he was no different from Lenin, Stalin or any of the others.

  10. @Ted Belman
    @Sebastien Zorn

    You know what the REAL problem is?

    The Arabs are acting as though it is THEIR land, even though IT ISN’T and are screaming about their “fight for freedom” (which is in reality terrorism) and creating facts on the ground, while the Israelis/Jews act as though it is NOT THEIR land, even though IT IS, and, instead of growing a spine and telling everyone to shove off, and creating facts on the ground, they keep writing fancy articles about how it is all ours and not theirs.

    In fact, simply writing the articles instead of doing things that need to be done is not the worst, the worst is that they actually PROMOTE their enemies goals!

    So who the “world community” is going to respect and support – the Jews or the Arabs?

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  11. @Sebastien Zorn

    The history of the Russian Civil War is a lot more complicated than a fight between anarchists and bolsheviks.

    This article is clearly biased because Makhno never created an independent Ukrainian state (he ruled over a fairly small area) and was a fairly minor figure.

    The Civil War was also accompanied by a foreign invasion, including even by the US.

    There is a good reason to believe that if not for Trotsky’s leadership, the war would have been lost.

  13. @ Felix The author’s attempt to compare it with today was inappropriate and anachronistic. Completely different:

    “Nestor Makhno wanted a radically independent, anarchist future in Ukraine, free from the pull of both east and west. For three years in the wake of World War I, he succeeded in constructing a free state along the banks of the Dnieper River, bridging the divide between Russian-speaking and Ukrainian-speaking peoples. ”

    ibid

    “The Reds rapidly took notice. In early 1919, the Bolsheviks allied with Makhno and his “Black Army” against the remaining Whites, who were gathered at the time under General Anton Denikin. Makhno cut Denikin’s supply lines and forced the Whites into the Black Sea. Victorious, the Black Army sought to consolidate its gains and secure a “Free State” in southern Ukraine where the principles of anarchist organization would be practiced among the peasantry.”

    ibid

    https://roadsandkingdoms.com/2014/the-last-time-ukraine-was-truly-free/

    As for your “pain”, it is unhealthy to cultivate a groupie mentality unless you are an adolescent and to quote Marx, If you dish it out you should be able to take it; if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    As you have now apparently done.

    There is a fun kdrama parody of the griupie mentality on Netflic called Her Personal Life,

  14. think the article explained it pretty well, but you won’t bother to read it, will you?

    The article explained nothing about those years and only served your purpose of mouthing your foulness against Trotsky. Your rotting foulness is an expression for the hatred of the main leader Trotsky who put an end to Pogroms. The anarchists have always ended by siding with reaction. How do you explain the writer being on the side of present day Fascists like Azov?

    …honored the memory of Makhno, the EuroMaidan movement began, shaking the country, toppling its pro-Russian president Victor Yanukovych. Russia has invaded Crimea, and is threatening more. The West blusters and threatens in response. A standstill hangs. Makhnograd stands restive. And that anarchy—that black flag under which Makhno fought, and for which his thousands died—looms just beyond.” End Quote

    And you quote that with approval putting you on the side of McCain and Biden.

    Yet your foul mouth calls Leon Trotsky a “murdering bastard”.

    Incredible!

    There were 2000 Pogroms in Ukraine from1919 into 1920

    Some were done by the Red Army estimated by Brendan McGeever at 8 per cent. Which was hidden by Stalin. Who was involved.

    Yet you equated Stalin with Trotsky.

    Trotsky in this seething cauldron of Antisemitism brought every weapon to bear in order to defeat the Whites.

    Jews were caught inside this pogrom world and they joined Trotsky openly and bravely as a matter of survival.

    The defeated White leaders went on to be the backbone of the Nazi party that Hitler was forming.

    We have a similar situation being created today.

    I will sign off this thread. It has been painful to me.

  15. think the article explained it pretty well, but you won’t bother to read it, will you?

    The article explained nothing about those years and only served your purpose of mouthing your foulness against Trotsky. Your rotting foulness is an expression for the hatred of the main leader Trotsky who put an end to Pogroms. The anarchists have always ended by siding with reaction. How do you explain the writer being on the side of present day Fascists like Azov?

  17. @Ted They put forwatd a number of plans including Kedar’s and Glick’s which are promising in the medium short run as part of a wider solution.

    But, the elephant in the room is that none of this can come about without defeating, dismantling, and disarming Fatah, Hamas and their allies which could only happen as the result of a war Israel will never start.

    The one advanrage to the present situation is ambiguity which gives Israel wiggle room.

  21. @Ted Belman

    They envisage a State of Palestine federated with a friendly Jordan.

    This invalidates their program immediately.

    This is just another group created to promote the Two-state Final Solution except as a “right wing” and using their prestige and connections, as opposed to Peace Now, et al.

    Another poisoned bait under the guise of “Zionist education”.

    It is utterly amazing that it is done by the people who are in charge of the protection and security of Israel.

    Also, even if Mudar Zahran is what he claims he is, he is only human.

    Let’s say he does take over Jordan and someone assassinates him – what then?

    Also, it is the court which creates the king and not the other way around – Jordan is seething with Jew hatred, and no one can just push a button to stop it.

    If the “Palestinians” move to Jordan – no harm done.

    If there is a confederation – it means a huge land giveaway in J & S to the population seething with Jew Hatred.

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  24. @ Sebasdtien
    Give it time. I have only been talking to them for a week. But look closely at the confederation Plan. I g one step farther but in the same direction.They envisage a State of Palestine federated with a friendly Jordan. Recently Mudar mentioned the same Plan to me and I immediately nixed it. I said Israel must be sovereign over all lands west of the Jordan R. I strongly advised him not to mention federation of confederation in my Zoom Meeting and he didn’t.
    I suggested to him that Israel lease Area A and B and Gaza to Jordan for 10 years. During this period Jordan would replace the PA and apply their own laws to the Palestinians.. Thus Jordan could criminalize any attempts to hurt Israel or Jordan and could remove such perpetrators to Jordan. He is amenable to doing this.. I am just in the process of informing the IDSF of the benefits of the JO..Give it time.

    You missed this paragraph.

    This Plan may be carried out under a variety of circumstances, that also depend on domestic Jordanian political stability. In case of the collapse of the Jordanian monarchy, it may be plausible to establish the State of Palestine in today’s Kingdom of Jordan, with enclaves in Palestinian population centers in Judea and Samaria.

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  25. The “Deal of the Century” is certainly NOT viable – the Arab state “hugging” Israel from both East (Judea and Samaria) and West (Gaza) with a tunnel cutting through Israel to connect the two parts.

    I haven’t read the whole article yet.

    The article about terrorism is an eye opener.

  26. @Ted I think the late Professor Stephen Plaut’s plan also deserves consideration in conjunction with any combination of the other proposed plans, especially the white and black lists.

    “…7. Jews will have the right to live anywhere they wish in the West Bank outside the reservations assigned to the “Palestinian” Arabs. The territory in the West Bank in which Arabs do not live or live sparsely, and this includes the Jordan Valley and the sparse areas in between the reservations, will be opened to unlimited Jewish settlement.

    The villages and towns with the Arab reservations will be assigned to two lists, a white list and a black list. Those in the white list will manage their own affairs without interference from the Israeli central authorities. Residents of white-list towns may hold commuter jobs in Israeli cities and industrial parks. The local authorities in the white areas will manage their schools and other local institutions. They will collect their own taxes and may benefit from revenue sharing arrangements with the Israeli fiscal authorities, like other Israeli towns. They might be allowed to operate their own local police forces. Residents in white-listed areas will be fully and freely mobile, able to move freely within and among all white-list areas. They will be allowed to develop local industry and tourist services. Their residents will have access to Israel universities, health facilities, and other services.

    Those towns and villages in the black list will enjoy none of the above. Their residents will be denied the opportunity to hold day jobs in Israeli cities and industrial parks. They will have no access to Israeli services. They will have control over nothing. Their residents will be prevented from moving freely outside their reservation, except in cases where they wish to leave the country altogether. They will receive no shared revenues, no fiscal incentives.

    Villages and towns will be assigned to the two lists based entirely on one single factor: violence. Areas in which violence occurs, and this includes rock throwing, will be assigned to the black list. Areas in which violence is absent will be assigned to the white list. Towns and villages will be reassigned to the black list from the white list when terrorism, sniping, mortars, rockets, or other forms of violence occur there. Towns and villages in the black list will be assigned to the white list only when the local population cooperates fully with Israel in apprehending and arresting the terrorists and those engaged in violence, and takes other effective actions to end the violence. Otherwise they will remain on the black list indefinitely. Entry into black list areas will be denied to foreigners, journalists, and especially to the “International Solidarity” anarchists and their ilk. Any such anarchist infiltrating the areas of the black list will be denied permission to leave them and will remain there indefinitely, or else will be imprisoned by Israel.

    This of course leaves the dilemma of the Gaza Strip. As noted, because of the Israeli folly of withdrawing from and abandoning its control over the Gaza Strip, the area is now nothing more than a large rocket-launching terrorist base. I happen to believe that, in the long run, Israel will have no choice but to re-impose its complete control over the Gaza Strip.

    But for the immediate future, an Israeli unilateral set of moves will be necessary here as well. Basically these must consist of a three-pronged assault against Gaza the very first time that a rocket is launched into Israel from that territory. In this assault, Israel will seize a strip of land several kilometers wide that will divide the Gaza Strip from Egypt and this will end the massive smuggling of weapons, explosives, drugs and other materials into Gaza. The other two prongs will split Gaza into three smaller segments. Israel will control movement of people and materials among these segments. It will arrest and shoot terrorists on the spot. And eventually it may impose the system of reservations and the white-black lists upon Gaza as well…”

    https://archives.frontpagemag.com/fpm/time-annex-judea-and-samaria-steven-plaut/

  27. @Ted No mention of the Jordan Option. No mention of incentivized or compensated emigration.

    @Reader Thank you for the link to their position papers.

    https://idsf.org.il/en/position-papers/

    “In this paper we outline several viable plans as alternates to the current two state solution:

    The Palestinian Emirates Plan

    The Jordanian Confederation/Federation Plan

    The New State Solution

    ”Deal of the Century”

    The One State Solution”

  31. @peloni

    A true Zionist’s Zionist.

    I like his stance on aliyah (but not on the Netanyahu’s “sovereignty”), as for the rest of it – there is too much about education and other blah-blah-blah and too little on the actual action his organization proposes, so far.

    This reminds me a little of something which happened with Jabotinsky early in his career:

    He participated in a Zionist meeting where the need for Zionist education was on the agenda, and the participants kept saying how important and necessary Zionist education was.

    After a while, Jabotinsky interrupted them and proposed that they discuss establishing a network of Zionist schools that would fulfill the need for Zionist education.

    Everyone turned around and looked at him for a moment, and then went back to discussing the dire need for Zionist education.

    Jabotinsky left the meeting and never came back.

    I am hoping that this organization will actually be effective and will actually solve problems instead of talking about them endlessly.

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  32. I listened very carefully and wrote this by no means vicious against Akivi

    “This is not a political party which speaks

    They have moved into a space which is a vacuum.

    And this man we are told has taken a few generals across to discuss with American Imperialism

    When I see all clambering on board without a question then there needs to be a proper discussion on PROGRAM”

    These are short but substantial points.

    Chop em up any way you wish but they are very substantial and will come back to haunt you

  33. Sebastien Zorn

    Your explanation is meaningless. Words only. You called Trotsky a murdering bastard and equated him with Stalin. It is a terrible thing you have done and the stain is there.

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  35. @Felix.
    Rather than make your case for saying that Avivi has illusions, you come out against Peloni and I for having called you to task..If you want to call this policing be my guest.
    Again make your case for saying Avivi has illusions.. The only thing you said

    When I see all clambering on board without a question then there needs to be a proper discussion on PROGRAM

    We can jump on board if we want. We don’t need your permission and you don’t know what I know about the “program”. If you want to argue that something is wrong with the program, do so. So far you haven’t.

    It is you who are criticizing us for jumping on board without a discussion. You are admonishing us.. You should have just asked what the program was or if you know what is about tell us.

  36. @Felix

    Ad hominem

    Ad hominem (Latin for ‘to the person’), short for argumentum ad hominem (Latin for ‘argument to the person’), refers to several types of arguments, some but not all of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is “A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong”.

    Fallacious ad hominem reasoning occurs where the validity of an argument is not based on deduction or syllogism, but on an attribute of the person putting it forward.

    Valid ad hominem arguments occur in informal logic, where the person making the argument relies on arguments from authority such as testimony, expertise, or a selective presentation of information supporting the position they are advocating. In this case, counter-arguments may be made that the target is dishonest, lacks the claimed expertise, or has a conflict of interest. Another type of valid ad hominem argument generally only encountered in specialized philosophical usage refers to the dialectical strategy of using the target’s own beliefs and arguments against them, while not agreeing with the validity of those beliefs and arguments.

    Ad hominem arguments were first studied in ancient Greece. John Locke revived the examination of ad hominem arguments in the 17th century….

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

    Neither Stalin nor Trotsky was making an argument, here. I was not debating with them but drawing conclusions from the historical record of long-gone public figures. Therefore I was not making a fallacious ad hominem attack.

    If you choose to emotionally identify with a dead personage, well…

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  37. Mr Belman

    It can also be a form of censuring because I am accused falsely of ad hominem attack. But you were silent when Mr Zorn said Stalin and Trotsky were the same, murdering bastards.

    And my comment on this new group IS substantial

    I made several points that are important. But the joint attack on me, like Zorn, has been truly vicious.

    YOU DID NOT WANT TO DISCUSS MY POINTS. WENT FOR THE CHEAP ONE.

  38. @Felix

    “policing” a blog.

    Now I am a police blogger or a blogging policeman? Stop with your nonsensicle defenses and make your statement, if you have one to make. It was my own question to which you still have offered no fair explanation beyond claiming Amir has “illusions”, whatever that means. I believe you are a very defensive individual, who seems greatly intimidated by me for some reason, and I really think it would be best if we could actually discuss a topic without it being short-circuited by your rude cultural outbursts, such as claiming I am a policeman. I simply asked you to explain what disturbed you about Avivi, and for a response you say he is an illusionist, the Americans are imperialists and I am a blogger cop.

    You can do better than these silly unsupported and vague generalities which offer no answer to my question of your concerns, but if not, I am satisfied you have nothing specific to offer.

    Now be nice or I will cite you for Jay-walking on a Monday…LOLOLOL

  39. @Felix
    I have never limited discussion, only ad hominem attacks.
    You wrote

    “And this man we are told has taken a few generals across to discuss with American Imperialism”

    You are so quick to jump on him without knowing what was discussed. Did he say that in the interview?

    Why not wait till it becomes clearer before cutting him off at the knees and accusing him of having illusions.

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  41. There absolutely must be free discussion on Israpundit. It is noticeable that Peloni when Mr Belman is challenged he acts in role of blocker. Sometimes actually called “policing” a blog.

    I have absolutely serious questions about Avivi but then if I’m not here they may not be asked until too late.

  45. Felix

    this man we are told has taken a few generals across to discuss with American Imperialism

    What is it that disturbs you regarding Amir’s comments in any of what has been posted here?

  47. This is not a political party which speaks

    They have moved into a space which is a vacuum.

    And this man we are told has taken a few generals across to discuss with American Imperialism

    When I see all clambering on board without a question then there needs to be a proper discussion on PROGRAM

  48. I have talked to Martin Sherman and to Amir Avivi. It was clear that we are all on the same page..
    On Friday I was invited to meet with senior executives of ZOA to discuss the Jordan Option. I have their full support. They told me that they also met with Amir. We all share the same values and intend to work together to realize them.

    I told all of them that I expected Mudar to come to power by August at the latest and thereafter we have to mobilize the people and the Knesset to capitalize on the potential this development affords us. Not only are the execs on board but they are excited about the opportunities.

    ZOA is going to hold a Webinar on the Jordan Option with me as the only speaker.

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