The only thing wrongwith this plan is that the Arabs aren’t buying it. Essentuially only limited sovereignty is being offered. In other words, autonomy. That’s all they are going to get.
Lieberman believes Israel must take the diplomatic initiative by proposing a Palestinian state in provisional borders.
By Barak Ravid
Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman has drafted a map of a Palestinian state in provisional borders. The map would essentially “freeze the existing situation in the territories, with minor changes,” a senior Foreign Ministry official said.
The proposal is meant to show that Israel is genuinely interested in progress toward peace, and to force the Palestinians to say whether they really want a state.
According to the official, Lieberman says Israel must take the diplomatic initiative by proposing a Palestinian state in provisional borders. This would preempt international recognition of such a state in the 1967 borders, reduce international pressure on Israel and transfer at least part of the state to the Palestinians.
“After a Palestinian state has been established in provisional borders, it would be possible to resume diplomatic negotiations and maybe reach agreements on transferring additional territory to the Palestinian state,” the official said.
Lieberman has briefed Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on the project but has not yet shown him the map. Lieberman, the source said, believes that the more time passes, the more people will come around to the idea that the goal for now should be an interim agreement with the Palestinians.
The idea is already gaining support in the forum of seven key ministers. Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya’alon, for instance, shares Lieberman’s view that Israel should consider establishing a Palestinian state with provisional borders, simultaneously bolstering the Palestinian Authority and reducing Israeli control over Palestinians’ lives.
And Lieberman was particularly pleased with Netanyahu’s statement on Channel 10 television a few weeks ago that an interim agreement is one possible outcome of the diplomatic process.
The Foreign Ministry source said Lieberman’s map also includes a network of new roads linking the areas under Palestinian control. The map “provides territorial contiguity that would enable the Palestinian state in provisional borders to be viable,” he said.
Lieberman’s plan, which corresponds to the second stage of the 2003 U.S.-sponsored road map peace plan, would not involve evacuating settlements or transferring significant additional territory to the PA. Thus the new state’s provisional borders would comprise mainly the parts of the West Bank known as Areas A and B. The PA currently has full control over Area A, and civilian but not security control in Area B.
Together, these areas comprise some 42 percent of the West Bank. But a bit of additional territory might be thrown in to bring the new state up to 45 or 50 percent of the West Bank.
By comparison, opposition MK Shaul Mofaz (Kadima), who chairs the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, has proposed a Palestinian state in provisional borders comprising at least 60 percent of the West Bank, accompanied by an Israeli pledge that the final borders would encompass at least 92 percent of the West Bank.
At the same time, Lieberman has also ordered his ministry to draft plans to pressure the PA to stop waging diplomatic campaigns against Israel in the UN Security Council, the International Criminal Court and other international forums.
According to the Foreign Ministry official, the ministry is finalizing a report that will list all the steps Israel has taken to further economic and security cooperation with the Palestinians, contrasted with all the steps the PA has taken against Israel.
The report is due to be completed in another week, after which Lieberman plans to send it to the U.S. State Department and both houses of Congress. He will then ask the United States to threaten to halt financial assistance to the PA if it does not end its anti-Israel campaign.
Just to clarify, what I was referring was to pro-Israel American supporters, not the US government. People that think the world of Netanyahu and/or Lieberman, whom they define as conservative right wingers – nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. They post here, too, occasionally, and they have no idea what this Israeli party leaders say and do.
America ” Our men and woman in Jerusalem” = BB, Barak and Livni
Russia “Our man in Jerusalem” = Lieberman.
Jews “Our men in Jerusalem” = 0
Lieberman’s only solid goal is driving the maximum number of Arabs from Israel. On that point, he lacks the principled positions of Rabbi Kahane (unconditional transfer) or Rehavam Zeevi (buying out the property of the Arabs who agree to leave). Lieberman opts for a politically correct solution of territorial exchange with the Palestinian state, swapping Arab-populated regions of Israel for Jewish settlement blocs on the lands controlled by the Palestinian Authority. Like most half-measures, that one is unworkable.
If the territorial exchange appeared on the negotiating table, the Arabs from soon-to-be-swapped areas would move to other areas of Israel. Nothing precludes those villagers from moving, say, to Jaffa, where they won’t be subjected to a population exchange.
Territorial swaps will create the familiar situation of divided families. Any extended Arab family would always have relatives on both sides of the border. The position of the Israeli Supreme Court on such matters is well established: the Israeli government is expected to provide the Arabs opportunities to meet. So the border traffic would be huge, and would pose a high security risk.
The territorial exchange would bring us to the 1947 UN map, which we fought against in the War of Independence. That plan created several barely interconnected Jewish enclaves surrounded and interspersed by Arab enclaves. Such a state was of course doomed. Lieberman’s plan would create an even worse map, as the Arabs could not be contained in their 1947 locations and move out in large numbers beyond those enclaves.
Lieberman’s plan ignores the problem of illegal construction. Israeli Arabs have actually settled territories several times larger than their zoned locations. Demolishing that massive illegal construction in a politically tolerable way is impossible, and abandoning such huge areas to the Palestinian Authority is impractical.
kibbutzim and Arab villages in Galilee, as well as settlements and Arab towns in Gush Etzion, are so intermingled that separating them for the purposes of territorial exchange is impossible. A border which includes Jewish villages and excludes Arab ones would look like a drunkard’s path on the map. Such a border would be indefensible, and a security liability.
There is a fundamental contradiction between realpolitik and populism: viable politics is never nice.
Arabs from the exchanged areas (in Lieberman’s plan) would not like to leave and would have to be deported.
So why not deport them without land?
Our Peace Plan should be modeled on Joshua’s conquest of Canaan.
ONE SOVEREIGN STATE SOLUTION – Israel should unilateraly change its name to GREATER PALESTINE and claim its rule from the NILE to the EUPHRATUS rivers
In case it hasn’t sunk in yet for some of you (especially Americans):
Lieberman=Livni.
Stop being fooled. Do the math.
Probably just one of Oat’s endless list of distant relatives. I call them Heinz 57.
It truly is. Must be some liberal Jewish artist who doodled this, putting Obama in the Magen David.
amazing!
Nothing will happen. He may or may not resign his ministerial post but not his position in his party or his seat in the Knesset. He might or might not have his party leave the coalition but I think he will stretch out saying in the coalition for as long as possible. His popularity will increase from those who think the government is trying to shut him up and discredit him before probable elections.
Like all or most of Israels politicians he is as dirty as they come but his source of dirt comes from the outside (foreign criminal elements) as opposed to locale criminals that corrupt most of the other Israeli politicians.
But the crescent wasn’t green.
Yet the Kippa is black!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Not so obvious and one would have to have a potent and knowledgeable imagination for Kipah. One could then say there was a Muslim crescent as well. 😉
Forget the light fractal Magen David. How could you miss the Kipah at the 50 sec. mark?!?!?!?!
🙂
All of these plans will only accelerate the current situation to a war. I think that is perhaps why we have no agreement. The status quo is currently best for the current leaders.
Please correct me if I’m wrong. Israel was granted sovereignty over the former Ottoman land west of the Jordan River by the same legal authority which also created several Arab states from other Ottoman land. These sovereignty rights haven’t been revoked or superseded. In the interest of peace, Israel is offering some of the land to which it, and only it, has legal sovereignty rights to Arabs for another state but the Arabs are demanding more. Not only that but the Arabs also teach and preach hatred of Jews and a future without Israel with partial peace being a transitional phase to Israel’s eventual demise. Right so far? If memory serves me, I read the script for this in the PLO 1973 Phased Plan for the Liberation of Palestine. The transformation of often repeated groundless Arab lies to accepted facts seems to validate Joseph Goebbels comment that if a lie is repeated often enough that people will believe it true. Which side of the looking glass are we on and why doesn’t the government of Israel know it? And if they in fact aware of it, why don’t they speak forcefully and frequently to undermine the fictional Arab narrative?
Ted, Yamit, Sam and Yonatan,
What happens to Yisrael Beiteinu and Netanyahu’s coalition if the headline-hunter is indicted? Also, is he as crooked as they charge, or is this just Israal’s seemingly pro-leftist and anti-nationalist supreme court? This is a question, not a statement. I’m not anywhere near as well-schooled on current Israeli politics as you guys who actually live there.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
Yonatan says:
We’re being shown the way – you just have to pay attention.
The impact politically of Christian Zionists in America on the foreign policy of Clinton , Bush and Obama has yet to be demonstrated effective. I perceive zero influence. They have not taken up the mantle of Israel support in any demonstration called by Jewish organizations, no policy shift in favor to Israel can be demonstrated.They have removed pro Israel congressman for the Rand Pauls, and contribute financially less to political campaigns that Jews do. In Israel they have gained influence but that’s also a negative so when you say America supports Israel because of Christian Zionists? Americans don’t think much about Israel unless asked. Then Israel in most polls makes a comparisons between Israel and the Arabs. Now most Americans are negative on the Arabs so it’s a no brainer contest. I want to see polls asking to rate Israel against Canada, England, Ireland etc.
Lieberman is always seeking headlines to assert his relevancy. The more BB marginalizing him the more Lieberman must project himself. I smell elections this year and Lieberman is posturing and positioning himself. Rumors have it that beginning of Feb he will be indicted and his statements may have something to do with that possibility.
I mostly agree with Arnold on this one.
Thats bullcrap BO – Hashem did not bring us into the holy land again just to be beholden to the christian zionists. We’re being shown the way – you just have to pay attention.
So here we go again. A subordinate cabinet minister offering to give away half of Shomron and Yehuda no less, fortunately to an Arab leadership that thinks he is a boastful idiot looking for headlines. The bottom line here is that Lieberman is too much of a wild onion to lead the destiny of the Jewish nation. I had long thought better, because, being the seed of a Russian Jewish grandfather and grandmother, I thought this man had at least some of the common sense shared by Vladimir Jabotinsky and David Ben Gurion. But when hope flies in the face of reality, I switch gears and engage reality. The best and most solid leadership Israel can get is to pull Katzele’s National Union into the ruling coalition and just not respond to Lieberman’s foreign policy ventures, which he seems to create mostly out of thin air and probably without even discussing this stuff at the coalition leadership meetings.
The Israeli leadership should just shut the hell up about borders and wait for the unlikely event PLO may sue for peace on something at least close to the Jewish nationalist terms most of us on Israpundit presumably support. Never forget that in any kinds of negotiations, the first guy to open his mouth and make offers is the one who walks home without his pants.
Arnold Harris
Mount Horeb WI
I agree.
It’s delusional to think otherwise, Sam. The US is the ONLY country supporting Israel, and this is ONLY because of the significant Christian Zionist minority here. If it weren’t for them, you would have been washed out to sea a long time ago.
I disagree. Lieberman’s “map” idea is a good one. The Pals can be offered autononmy in a definite territory. Of course, Israel would first of all have to annex the areas and put an end to its “occupier” status.
The nice thing about his map, is that it includes the Pals who are Israeli citizens. All the Arabs who choose to accept or retain Israeli citizenship can then be accorded status as “Israeli citizens of the State of Palestine (or of the Arab states)” in a federal arrangement — along with Jewish Israeli states, corresponding to already recognized regions of the country. The Arab state, or states, would be an autonomous region and therefore under its own laws — SUBSERVIENT, as is the case in all federations, to Jewish-majority Israeli law. The rights of Jewish citizens in Arab areas would, therefore, be fully protected, and the same would go for Arabs in Jewish areas.
So you see, there is a solution. Would the Jews accept such a solution? I believe that a majority would. Would the Arabs? They would have to. In 1993, the PLO accepted an agreement , the Oslo Accords, that offered them only portions of areas formerly occupied by the Jordanians and Egyptians, while their charter demanded sovereignty over all Israel. Of course, they have not honored their side of the accords; but the fact remains that they accepted them. There are parts of the Arab world that will reject ANY agreement with the Israelis, just as HAMAS rejects the PLO today; but this is irrelevant. HAMAS will be holed up in Independent Gaza, officially at war with Israel until they surrender; and the international community will have to recognize anything that the PLO agrees to in Judea, Samaria and the North. Either they can accept this offer, or they can stew in their juices. Israel will have made its solid commitment to a “two state” solution, as a “starting” position; and the Pals cannot hope to go beyond this unless they accept it.
The building of additional and expanded settlements, of course, must resume immediately and be prosecuted with full vigor.
I think Lieberman is onto something. If anyone thinks his solutions will lead to peace and harmony, they have the wrong country in mind: This is Israel, not Xanadu. In order to get out of the present quagmire, though, Israel needs to assert control over Areas A and B, and end support for Arab activities that are perpetuating the crisis, such as their media and education systems that are raising up an entire generation of Arabs who refuse peace, and a security apparatus that turns a blind eye to atrocities. They can have Sharia law: they can double-wrap their women in shrink-wrap if they want; they can command 50 prayers a day to Mecca; but they cannot be allowed to deny civil rights to the Jewish majority. That’s what “autonomy” is about, and that needs to be clearly articulated to the international community.
If the Arabs continue to reject the idea, fine! Israel can implement it anyway, and let the rebels go to a special place, prepared just for them, in Israel’s sovereign territory, with an open invitation to leave Israel and never come back. It’s a solution.
We are nearing the end of the 7th millennium, I’m not making predictions but …….?
See Here and Here
I’m not sure the present “Jewish” State of Israel is actually Jewish enough to do so.
Gaza first:
Israel should declare that Gaza is an independent palestinian state, that Hamas is its legitimate government, and that it is in a state of war with Jewish Israel. Then it should stop supplying Gaza with water, electricity, and fuel.
The West Bank is basically insoluble. The palestinians have no reason to take any real action, because the Jew-hating goyim of the world will do it for them, by pressuring Jewish Israel to commit suicide voluntarily, similar to their killing six million european Jews 70 years ago. (And the so-called “help” from America’s christian zionists will be as trivial and ineffective now as it was then. Counting on significant help from them is delusional.)
The New York Times had a map today proposing a future West Bank state (apparently from a Jewish center-leftist). The infamous “security barrier” actually extends just a mile or so beyond the green line, but still leaves Jewish Israel just nine miles wide at its narrowest. 240,000 Jews are within the security barrier. Many of those are within a horseshoe of settlements surrounding east Jerusalem. 60,000 Jews live in settlements scattered througout the West Bank.
The palestinians, at the very minimum, want 60,000 Jews ethnically cleansed (and many tens of thousands more from east Jerusalem). They want the Temple Mount, the Mount of Olives, Hebron (and Kiryat Arba), and the Jordan Valley. They want to cut off Israeli access to the Dead Sea from the north.
It is hard to see even Netanyahu and Barak conceding on these things (Tzipi Livni would). It would bring about a civil war in Israel.
It now comes down to how far the goyim will go in equating the Jewish presence in the Land of Israel to the presence of racist white supremacist Afrikaaners in South Africa. Most of the goyim already make this comparison. When Obama joins them, then Israel must be prepared to fight, if it wishes to survive. I’m not sure the present “Jewish” State of Israel is actually Jewish enough to do so.