There are often strange bedfellows in Israeli politics, but the “conversion revolution” promised by Knesset Law Committee chairman David Rotem of Israel Beiteinu has created some of the oddest alliances seen in quite some time.
On one side you have 350,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union who want to convert to Judaism, along with the haredim, who never wanted them to come here in the first place and who want to force them to become Orthodox.
On the other side you have the world’s most famous immigrant to Israel in Jewish Agency Chairman Natan Sharansky, along with the Jewish federations of North America that helped bring the Russian immigrants, the leaders of the Reform and Conservative movements and politicians from left, right and center.
In between you have, as usual, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, who in an ideal world would keep all sides happy. But in this case, that doesn’t seem possible.
Rotem’s bill, which passed in his committee but still must pass three Knesset readings, would enable city rabbis to conduct conversions, while ultimately placing the conversion issue under the legal jurisdiction of the Chief Rabbinate. Currently, the law is ambiguous enough to allow converts to be legally recognized by the state without the Chief Rabbinate’s involvement.
One side argues that the bill has only positives and no negatives, because it would solve the dilemma of the 350,000 immigrants by enabling them to be converted by moderate city rabbis, without changing the legal status quo for conversions that are conducted abroad.
The other side argues that the bill has only negatives and no positives, because giving the haredi-controlled Chief Rabbinate legal authority over conversions would not only prevent those immigrants from converting without agreeing to become Orthodox, it could also prevent Reform and Conservative conversions abroad from being recognized in the future.
This fight between the two sides is expected to heat up next week when Israel Beiteinu head Avigdor Lieberman insists the bill must be raised in the Knesset before its summer recess begins. It is still unclear whether Netanyahu will prevent the bill from being voted on to satisfy US Jewish leaders or whether to cater to Lieberman he will allow it to be voted on – and almost definitely voted down.
OPPOSITION LEADER Tzipi Livni told The Jerusalem Post that instead of giving the haredim a monopoly on conversions and alienating Diaspora Jewry, Netanyahu should put his foot down and come up with own solution that all sides could live with.
“Instead of alternating between caving into Lieberman and then caving into Shas and Labor, he should be engaging everyone involved in deep dialogue,” Livni said. “For the sake of coalition quiet, he is not preventing future problems that can jeopardize Israel’s future.”
She accused Netanyahu of being ungrateful to Diaspora Jews, who have been on the front lines over the past year in the conflicts between Israel and the world that she blames the prime minister for instigating.
“Netanyahu asks them to help with the crises and defend his policies,” she said. “This bill would make it harder for Diaspora Jewry to feel a connection to Israel when we need to be doing everything possible to draw them closer. It’s especially hard for young Americans to connect to Israel if Israel becomes a synonym for haredim.”
Livni said that when she was immigrant absorption minister, she had worked on a remedy for the problem with the expert on conversions in Israel, Rabbi Haim Druckman. She said allowing city rabbis to do conversions should be part of the solution and it was in Kadima’s platform, but it is wrong to pay a price to the haredim for that change of allowing them to require converts to keep all the commandments.
“One item in the legislation is important, but the other is impossible to swallow,” she said. “We have to stop the trend of giving the monopoly on everything Jewish to the haredim, who do not have an interest in there being more conversions. Ariel Sharon said we are Jews and we are connected to Jewish tradition, but if we had to go through conversion, we would fail because we would have to change our lifestyle to haredi.”
Livni accused Israel Beiteinu of consistently failing to solve the problems of the Russian immigrant population that it represents.
DEPUTY FOREIGN Minister Danny Ayalon of Israel Beiteinu responded that Kadima didn’t change the situation when it was in power, so Livni’s accusations were hypocritical. Ayalon is an eloquent defender of the legislation, in part because his wife Anne converted to Judaism and is far from haredi.
“We need to do a better job of explaining to our brothers and sisters in America and around the world the merits of the bill and the fact that it will not change the status quo,” Ayalon said. “Israeli leaders must provide answers to children who ask their parents why they are not considered Jews, couples who cannot get married and soldiers who do not receive the proper respect. The 350,000 immigrants who are not considered Jews are a national strategic problem that must be solved now, because in another generation or two it could tear our society apart.”
Ayalon said the bill would not supersede a 2002 Supreme Court ruling that the Interior Ministry must register as Jews Israeli citizens who were converted by the Conservative or Reform movements here or abroad.
He stressed that the neighborhood rabbis, who will get to know the people they convert, would also marry them, which would solve the current problem whereby Israelis who do not convert through the Chief Rabbinate are prevented from marrying in the country.
Ayalon added that rabbis who convert people would also be the only ones enabled to annul the conversions, which would solve another problem of mass annulments of past conversions.
Rotem, who worked on the compromise with the haredim for two years, accused Livni of being “a hostage to the Reform Movement in the United States.” He said there was no reason for Jews in any religious stream in the US to fear his bill, because it only affects conversions here and it does not require Israeli converts to become Orthodox.
“The law doesn’t demand actually maintaining all of the commandments, but merely taking upon themselves the yoke of all of the commandments and accepting all of them as binding,” Rotem said. “It does not mean that you have to follow all of them all of the time. It does not address how you choose to live your life after your conversion.”
Yamit:
I didn’t say anything describing what I thought about the Ten Commandments, except to say that they are implicitly based on the idea of “do unto others…” Not all of them, but essentially an excellent beginning to define how to behave… So I stick by my idea that what Rabbi Hillel said constitutes in essence a one sentence synopsis of the Ten Commandments. And you must admit that if everyone bore these commandments in mind continuously (even the Muslims), things could be a little different. There are “nuances” behind my saying all this, but I can’t say them in words (like you can) so they will remain deeply entrenched inside this head until such time as they force themselves out.
As for the rest of what you say; it’s so good that I’m going to save it on paper. In fact your ideas are very much my ideas and there are few people (in my opinion) who would seriously entertain them, particularly those of a deep Halachic bent, whose minds can’t pry themselves off iron rules and their latent oppressiveness.
When discussing “God” we also have to consider that “He” is not Melech Yehudim; “He” is Melech Haolam (excuse my poor Ivrit), which means that everything you say applies to everyone and everything, not just the Jews. Now we may be special in that we as a people have the backbone to resist the oppressiveness that comes from those who live lives that are the antithesis of what you describe. But as you imply, they too are constantly stumbling on obstacles…
I could say more, but I don’t want (a) to go round in circles, or (b) bore everyone to death.
BB caved to the reform Jews and opposes the law. It’s dead in the water now.
No it’s not Keelie.
Judaism is a practical religion for individual people. It has no requirements or conditions that make normal life impossible or cannot be fulfilled in reality. Minute regulation developed only in Levitical and especially in late rabbinic interpretation; the law of the Torah is not oppressive.
Judaism is not a religion in traditional sense. Jews need not believe in supernatural events like eternal nirvana or someone’s resurrection. Even ostensible miracles in Judaic epos may be explained according to the laws of nature. Judaism is a system of ethics which can be understood, evaluated, and consciously accepted. Atheists are uncomfortable with the Creation—strikingly similar to the Big Bang—but the issue is practically unimportant. Some critical people doubt that G-d dictated Moses the commandments, but what changes if Moses already knew the laws and wrote them down for the judges to apply, as Jethro told him? In the end, Judaism is the law; all events in Tanakh only demonstrate validity of the law. Any other view makes Judaism a pagan religion whose tribal deity favors one ethnic group above others. Jews are chosen to observe the law, and remain chosen insofar as they are expected to observe it. Unlike sectarian radicalism, Judaism is not maximalist. The world is not divided between good and evil. According to Talmudic tradition, it is enough for men to be one-thousandth good and enter the heavenly realm. The commandments do not require absolute obedience in the sense that transgression does not preclude righteousness. The more a man keeps, the better, the easier is the Way. Transgression is cause for repentance, aimed at not repeating the mistake.
There is no anger. G-d is as indifferent to people’s behavior as he is immutable. Commandments are instructions for living in this world. One can disregard them and constantly stumble upon obstacles. Those are not G-d’s anger, not blows of fate, but simply laws of nature which we do not yet understand. The commandments tell us how to live comfortably in the field of those laws; obeying them keeps the Way free of hindrance.
No one complains of the warning on an electrical appliance. That caution is a consequence of the law of nature, not an arbitrary rule. One may ignore it and touch the wire. Shock is not a result of rage, but the effect of natural phenomena. Commandments are the same kind of advice. People are free to observe the commandments or refuse Judaism.
People endowed with free will need not follow arbitrary, incomprehensible laws, if choice exists (it does not exist for the law of gravitation). But the commandments are not arbitrary. The Ten Commandments establish just and efficient society; other rules more or less plausibly interpret the Ten. A person who encounters interpretation he disagree with is entitled to reject it, though not without large benefit of doubt: if many other rules are correct, perhaps the one in question is only misunderstood. The original Judaism did not even threaten afterlife punishment: souls of good and evil alike abode in the eternal sleep, returning to the primordial unity where no such distinctions exist. Judaism was conceived as a religion of free will without the coercion of afterlife threat or subornation of earthly privilege. Not incidentally, Hebrews were promised neither dominance, nor riches, but the priesthood of serving G-d.
No.
I also ended my quote of your words with you saying “The rest is just window dressing.”
Since your idea of what G-d wants is mainly just to obey the 10 Commandments and not all 613 of them, nor to abide by Chazal’s commandments either, you are certainly proposing a belief system foreign to Judaism and much closer to christianity – sans the stick man.
Shy Guy – from the essay:
And that’s the Ten Commandments.
Shy Guy
The TEN COMMANDMENTS?!!!! The commandments that were given to Moses and the Israelites on Mt Sinai are of Christian, not Jewish origin? Hmmmmm…
Rav Eliezer Melamed: A Definitive Essay on the Laws of Conversion to Judaism
Bunk. I don’t see how one has any more right or claim than another.
There are lots of questions. The claims of legacy going back to Solomon are just that – claims. Their observance of Mitzvot has many holes in it – big ones – and it is not known if that was caused by the passage of time or something faulty to begin with when they dedicated themselves to a life of Judaism generations ago. Contrast their observance scenario to the Jews of Yemen.
The Giyur Lechumra is not absurd. Any prejudices against such Jews are – and such prejudices are becoming – the lot of many a righteous convert, in violation of everything the Torah instructs us to do on their behalf.
First of all as a collective the Beta Israel community has more of a right to claim the name of Jew than most Frum Ashknenazi Jews and Talmud Hachamim in Boro Park. They preserved the the Torah under conditions and challenges that few European Jews could match. I referred to Ethopian Jews as an example of how traditions and faith have preserved a whole group of Isolated Jews that some claim from the time of Solomon and even Moses. They never had the support of other Jews. To question their Judaism is obscene. The Falashmura are another story. Mostly Christians, I would ban them from coming here. Or making the most stringent orthodox conversion a prerequisite for allowing them in.
I raised to point of Ethiopian Jewry into this discussion as an example of strength of tradition. I have relatives who walked all the way from Siberia to Palestine with small children and the father had TB. .
I say good riddance to most of N American Jwry, in another generation they will become as the Falashmura. They won’t in any significant numbers return to Judaism. Only a form of Jewish Nationalism can pave the way for their eventual return to traditional Judaism. For now that’s what we have.
It is unnecessary to insist that G-d revealed the entire Torah word-for-word. Good enough if we accept the divine origin of the commandments and agree that priests considerably adapted the law to changing circumstances, just like the Talmudic rabbis did a thousand years later. We cannot stop working on the Sabbath: power stations, police, air traffic controllers, and water suppliers must keep working. The clear prohibition that no one should work “in your town” can only be read as a ban on m’lacha, the exhausting work. Realistically, we cannot go on stoning the deviants who have sex with menstruating women.
Instead of appealing to the absence of Sanhedrin—which fact did not stop medieval rabbis from executing Jewish criminals—we can concede that priests made harsh laws to enforce morality, and it was hardly ever practiced for the impossibility of proving the crime. Instead of reading the caret punishment as some afterlife deprivation—despite the clear reference to temporal execution in Lev20:17—we should honestly ask ourselves whether the corpus delicti is of divine or priestly origin. This approach doesn’t come close to reformism, a nihilist teaching which reduces Judaism to gentile ethics. Whatever is clearly impossible no matter how hard we try just cannot be of divine origin.
Centralized Temple worship could not be a reality: Jews from Israel and Galilee could not travel to Jerusalem for routine purification and festivals. Already the First Temple lacks the Arc, urim and tummim, and the Second Temple lacks sacred objects altogether. The Temple is foremost a political institution of the Jewish nation. We should not wait for the ideal Temple to descend from the skies, but build up the Temple Mount.
The spiritual depth, ethics, and morality of many rabbis are unparalleled. Their devotion to the Torah, which they study in poverty with the utmost dedication, is mind-boggling. But the hard question is whether their Judaism is true. Should Jews be nice? Torah scholars? Or should we live a full-bodied national life with secular studies, secular jobs, and wars? The Bible offers no indication that G-d wants Jews to live monastic lives. We’re repeatedly commanded to settle the land, work it, and fight.
Do we then have a choice? Indeed, there is no choice: religious Jews launched massive settlement of the Land decades before Zionists, and Arabs repeatedly targeted the religious Jewish communities, which had no Zionist presence or aspirations to statehood. Subservience to nations is a disgrace of G-d’s name, and negotiations with enemies who claim the land promised to us testify to our rejection of G-d’s promises. He did his miracles in 1947 and 1967, but Jews refuse to follow through with our part of the job.
As for non observant and atheist Jews,Judaism is as relevant as any secular creed.
Russians defend the Kremlin not because of any religious content, but because it’s a Russian national symbol. Jews likewise would do well to stop discussing the existence of G-d. For practical purposes, that’s irrelevant. The Torah is the Jews’ only national symbol. Judaism is the Jews only national goal. There is no other cohesive force that can hold a Jewish nation together. Observe Sabbath to a degree because for nineteen centuries the world urged you to abandon it. Don’t eat pork because for centuries your ancestors went up in flames on stakes for refusing to eat it.
The secular religions of Maoism, communism, or democracy are no better than Judaism. Indeed, Judaism is a secular teaching: the religious life of common Jews in Temple times was largely restricted to thrice-annual Temple festivals. Judaism went to great lengths to forbid superfluous prayers for every occasion and sacrifices at every corner, and to that end centralized worship in the Temple. Judaism is a rational, reasonable, fully comprehensible set of laws for a comfortable, ethical life.
It is better to accept some political incorrectness like legal gender non-isomorphism than to question the Torah, the axiomatic basis of the Jewish people.
That’s very moving but what does it have to do with non-Jews converting, other than “giyur le’chumra”?
Or are we talking about christian Falashmura, in which case count me out?
SarahSue:
Here
Getting back to basic requires Jews to return to their classical historical intolerance, just the opposite of what you suggest.
As a Jew I will allow you your beliefs but never concede gentiles hold the truth.
Hmmm, Then by this logic anyone wishing to become an American should have no or few barriers
Any honest gentile who wants to convert should be allowed to do so/ How? By acting like a Jew.
How then does one act like a Jew?
Simple Huh?</strong> 🙂 Here
Here, I am seen for a second on this clip
Now explain which Jews you are talking about? The only thing that all Jews have in common is traditional Judaism, not history, language culture or race. It is only traditional Judaism that has kept Jews, Jews and this is what is destroying American Jews the dilution of traditional Judaism. Ethopian Jews are a testament to the power of tradition. American Jewry are the example of what happens when tradition is discarded.
You’ve described Christianity, not Judaism.
Hasta la vista.
Someone told me that this subject is a fiendishly complicated issue.
It should not be. Anyone crazy enough to want to be a Jew should be able to do so. Easily.
Anyone that would rather marry than live in sin should be able to do so. Easily.
The Rabbi of your choice should be able to perform both services.
Now, how hard was that?
You know I tend to agree with Keelie. Just maybe all of us, Christians, Catholics and Jews have gotten away from the basics. We may have out finessed ourselves.
G-d passes the Ten Commandments on to Moses as a guide to salvation, as Christians we believe likewise and we believe when questioned Jesus said the same, follow the commandments.
Think about it, you follow the Ten big ones and chances are your on the right track. How bad is it, you love, serve and honor G-d/God, love your parents, love your neighbors, you don’t kill, you don’t steal, you don’t covet your neighbors wife or goods.
In fact if we live by these we wouldn’t have a need for religious debates and we would be respectful of one another.
Sadly, as humans we can really screw things up.
I know and realize our own Catholic church did some terrible things in the name of Christ to other, mostly Jews. I am sure He wasn’t pleased. We had some strange dudes in charge.
We need to get back to basics and be tolerant.
What the hell does that mean Shy Guy?
My … whim?!!!
How do you know that I flout God’s commandments? You mean like eating food off plates that haven’t been washed in one of two kitchen sinks? And how do you know which “interpretation” of any one commandment is correct? And anyway, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
This kind of attitude, more than anything, is killing Judaism; when one can be a pious asshole and be well regarded by society. Do you think that intelligent youngsters are impressed with that kind of Judaism? Do you think that they want anything to do with that kind of hypocrisy? What they want is LIVE Judaism. We have it in certain areas, but my own experience is that often, even in these areas, the “ego of learning and knowledge” kills any true spirit.
Let’s get back – as I often say – to basics. Seems to me that the ten commandments are a great place to start. If we all meticulously obeyed the ten commandments, things would be different in the world. The rest is just window dressing.
Not at all.
I am simply pointing out that you ignore and flaunt G-d’s commandments completely, as per your hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/annual whim.
You’ve described America, not Judaism.
Apparently you are unable to distinguish between the two.
Shy Guy:
Not sure “enforcement” is the best approach. With enforcement you have the Catholic Church as well as Islam. Besides, who would enforce anything. The great thing about Judaism (in my opinion) is that it’s so utterly diversified (and opinionated).
Who really defines “exactly what God commanded us to do? In the opinion of the hardened Halachic people, individuals such as the Baal Shem Tov were to be shunned; not halachic enough to be Jews… Who’s to say? Personally I don’t believe that Eastern European Talmudists have the “ear of God” any more than anyone else who sincerely worships Him.
Yamit:
Granted. But this direct line is open to all of us. If not, what’s the point? Likewise if it’s only open to Halachic “stick to the rules” people, who have the capability (and means) to study interminably at Yeshivot, then there’s no point to it all. And of course we haven’t considered the “deadening effect” of rules – as opposed to spirit – being the determinant of all that’s good. You have indicated that yourself… And in order to interest younger, curious people, there have to be infinite options to worship the One God. Why? Because people have different tendencies. The people who genuinely stir others to a great love of God are usually (but not always) the ones who rebel against the status quo.
I could go on and on (as you well know) but I’ll take a break while all the amateur lawyers nitpick to death what I have just written.
Keelie Abraham not appropriate example, He had a direct line to G-d and the Hebrew nation had not yet come into existence. The Torah had not yet officially been revealed to the Hebrews at Sinai. It is the revelation at Sinai which forged the diverse Hebrew tribes into a nation.
It is that revelation at Sinai That all other sects and denominations of Judaism reject. Without a belief that the Torah was divinely revealed to some 3 million Hebrews who, all heard G-d speak they have as a consequence rejected the covenant and have at that point ceased to be Jews.
American Jews have in only two generations broken the generational link to our ancestors. This has never happened to Jews on this scale in all of our history. 2 generations a loss of 100 Jews a day to the Jewish people.
It appears that the divine plan foretold in Zacharia is manifesting itself in real time today. 1/3rd of the Jews perished in Europe and another third to assimilation today in the west. One third will be tried and a remnant will survive from that last third. That third are the Jews living in the land of Israel.
As a collective American Jewry is finished and already lost. Good riddance. I say let them go leave them be. They can only corrupt even more than is, the rest of us, those of us I call normative Jewry.
If Jewish thought rests upon the validity of the Torah being true, then the halakhic decisions derived must conform to these truths. Why cannot a Jewish polity be formed in Lithuania or Brooklyn?
Simply put, G-d give the Jewish people a place and that place is the Land of Israel. The question of why the Land of Israel is thus answered. If a Jew is to accept one tenant of the Torah, he must, in order to be logically consistent, accept the whole of Torah. Likewise, if a person is to accept that he is Jewish then he must define this concept upon viable and authentic Jewish sources and render precise his own actions accordingly. Any other alternative to this is something other than Judaism. That is, a person may, given free-will, live according to what is right in his own eyes, however, he must be rationally forced to understand that it is of his own devise and should be so called as such
Sephardim in Israel:
Conservative and “reform” Judaism never took root among the Jews living in muslim lands (Sephardim). So when they do anything Jewish, it is always in an orthodox fashion. But they have no religious police. They can do whatever they want outside the synagoguge, but whenever they are inside it is all Orthodox.
This is a version of “don’t ask, don’t tell”.
This mode of conduct has been unofficially accepted by Chabad and by the Modern Orthodox in both Israel and America.
This practice could easily be adapted throughout Israel, except that the Israeli “Jewish” leftists don’t really want to accomodate the Orthodox. They actually consider Jews who believe in Judaism as their “enemies”, and want to defeat them before they become more numerous and powerful.
Israeli leftists are really something. They admire majority non-white, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic america, and want to make “Jewish” Israel just like it, so that it becomes the 51st state, or maybe an American territory like Puerto Rico.
And the eternal quesion: if Israeli leftists love multi-cultural, multi-ethnic europe and america so much, and hate Jewish Israel so much, then why do they stay in Israel instead of emigrating.
To the best I can tell, it is because their self-identity actually consists solely of their hatred of Judaism and their quest to destroy Jewish Israel from within (although lacking self-awareness, they would probably deny this). They think they are “important” people fighting for a righteous casue while in Israel, but would become insignificant nobodies in america or europe.
Conversion:
The big picture is that “rational, enlightened” liberalism is itself a fanatic religion which takes no prisoners.
The liberal religion has spread throughout the western world. The goal is to destroy traditonal white religion, and destroy white majority political control by diluting each country with non-whites, resulting in a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic mish-mash.
The form this takes varies in its details within each sphere of liberal influence.
In Europe, white christian conservatives are labeled as “racist neo-nazis”, and the “cure” is to flood europe with muslims, who will vote liberal.
In the US, white christian conservatives (otherwise known as Republicans) are labeled as racist nationalists, and the “cure” is to flood the country with illegal latinos, who will vote liberal (Democrats).
In Israel, the demon has become Israeli Jews who are so “backward, primitive, and superstitious” that they still believe in tradtional Judaism. The “cure” is to flood Jewish Israel with so many illegal workers, and Jews of questionable Jewishness, that the liberals (leftists) can maintain political control.
The progress of liberalism in Europe and America has now led to irreversible changes. Europe will disappear and become eurabia. America will split into two: Republican majority states versus Democratic ones.
In Israel, the religious population is growing faster than the liberals can counteract it. If the Israeli liberals are truly fanatical, this will probably end in a civil war when the religious Jews are strong enough.
Source?
That has not been the main issue here is last year’s major case. The problem was there was no initial intent to be observant at all. In such a case, there is no conversion. The goy who intends to remain a goy does not accomplish anything by going through a process of conversion, any more than someone taking oath of citizenship while simultaneously remaining loyal to an enemy country, will retroactively have their citizenship revoked.
Two points that I haven’t yet seen addressed:
1. There is nothing in this bill that changes the status of Jews who convert outside the State of Israel. This bill is only for those converting inside Israel. So why is there a fuss about this in the US? The bill is trying to deal with the fact that 350,000 Israelis can not marry each other. The Orthodox have complete control over the marriage process in Israel (part of the ‘status quo’) so regardless if a Jew from the US makes Aliyah who had a Reform or Conservative conversion and is an Israeli citizen with full rights, he will still not be able to marry in Israel unless he converts according to the current Orthodox standards. Therefore, this bill is upholding the Orthodox standard of conversion in Israel so that these Israelis can get married in Israel. If the conversion process accepts non-Orthodox conversion as many would like, these converts will still not be able to marry in Israel as there will be no rabbi to marry them. So this would defeat the purpose of the bill.
2. Regarding the conversion process: All must agree that at the current time, the requirements for a convert to be accepted go way beyond halakah by historical standards. These rabbis tell their prospective converts where to educate their children, what kind of head covering to wear and who they can associate with. Much of this is custom and goes way beyond the essential requirements for conversion. At the time of Hillel the Elder, a convert was converted and then started learning. There was also never such a thing as a retroactive de-conversion of someone. If someone had a halakic conversion and then broke a commandment, there were still a Jew, just a Jew that sinned like much of the rest of us. I am not suggesting that all non-Orthodox conversions be accepted, but the current process is extreme and unfair by any standard and it has become a very serious problem whereby well intentioned converts can sill not become Jews and have had to be ‘reconverted’ numerous times.
Pinchas
Abraham would have said to follow exactly what G-d commanded us to do.
That includes the halachic definitions of who is a Jew and what constitutes a valid conversion.
Is a “point of view” the equivalent of “halachah” to you? No, I’m not advocating using “throat ramming” as a sure fire method to enforce Judaism. But isn’t Jewish law also in need of enforcement, or is it all a game and make-believe – in which case why would Jews bother with Judaism and especially with Israel altogether.
I suggest you back up and carefully read that entire paragraph you’re referencing (“Where does the legitimacy”).
You mean the Orthodox don’t try to shove their points of view down everyone’s throat?
And as for corruption; don’t go there…
Look, as I keep droning on – it’s time to get back to basics. How about God for a good start? Or can’t that be discussed?
What would Abraham have done and said?
Jack Golburt writes
Nurit, I have to tell you that bills like this one are not at all an attack on the legitimacy of non-Orthodox Jewry. They might, however, be an attack on the legitimacy of non-Orthodox leaders, who call themselves “rabbis” even though they do not accept the works of the rabbis. The issue is, who is a Jew and who is not. They have unilaterally created their own criteria for determining who is a Jew and then insist that the criteria which they have created must be considered binding on everyone, including the Orthodox, or it is the Orthodox who are dividing the Jewish people and causing animosity among “members of the Jewish nation.” What this is, quite simply, is an attack on the legitimacy of Halakhah, meaning an attack on Orthodox Judaism.
Where does the legitimacy of non-Orthodox rabbis and the rules they have created come from? If non-Orthodox rabbis have the authority to create rules that bind all Jews, to bring converts into the Jewish people, who does not have that authority? Do we have to accept “converts” of Jews for Jesus lest we divide the Jewish nation and cause animosity among “Jews”? They have converted Pat Boone and his daughters. Are they Jews? Do the Orthodox have to accept them as “members of the Jewish nation?” Yossi Beilin wants to institute “secular conversion,” whatever that is. Does he have authority to do that? George Soros has created a “Jewish” public advocacy organization. Could he also create a new “stream” of Judaism and make converts according to his own criteria? Perhaps with other Jews, like Norman Finkelstein or Noam Chomsky? If not, why not? Why do they not have the same legitimacy as Reform or Conservative Judaism? By what criteria can you say that you have legitimacy but they do not?
It is your rabbis who have misled you, who have caused the animosity for their own self-aggrandizement and to shove their own “legitimacy” and that of the rules which they have created down the throats of the Orthodox. “Accept our rules and our authority or you are guilty of dividing the Jewish people and creating animosity.” Should we call them “dirty unJews”?
And if you believe it is legitimate to judge rabbis by the worst and most corrupt among them, then we should also judge non-Orthodox Jews by their low-lifes. Should I get started? Judging people on the basis of their lowest and dirtiest has a name, Nurit. It’s called “bigotry.” In this case, it also has a name in psychology and sociology. It’s called “self-hatred.” Step back and look at yourself and what you have written.