By Ted Belman

Oliver Kamm, who embraces the thinking of Shlomo Avineri and Michael Walzer disparaged Israpundit by writing,

    The views of these people on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are of course, in their rejection of a two-state territorial settlement, far removed from those of Israeli voters and the Israeli government. I find their tone and content contemptible (“THERE IS ONLY A MILITARY SOLUTION,” screams the IsraPundit website on its masthead).

This from a man who advocated the bombing of Serbia.

The only reason IsraPundit screams it, as he puts it, is to overcome the oft repeated mantra of the left that there is no military solution.

But for some reason Kamm didn’t follow his own advice and insist that there was no military solution to the conflict in Yugoslavia. Evidently the “genocide” and ethnic cleansing allegedly being done by Milosevic warranted a military response but the terrorism and ethnic cleansing being done by Fatah and Hamas didn’t or doesn’t. Or perhaps he thought that a peaceful solution was not available in Yugoslavia whereas such a solution was available in Israel-Arab conflict.

Perhaps he thought that Milosevic was intransigent though some argue the record says otherwise. But who would argue that Abbas or Haniyeh are not intransigent. After all, the Charters of Fatah and Hamas call for the destruction of Israel, their words call for “resistance” which is a euphemism for terrorism, their incitement from kindergarten to the grave encourages the demonization of Israel and Jews and preaches war and martyrdom and their acts, kill.

A terrorist by any other name, such as “moderate”, is still a terrorist.

A military option should never be taken off the table neither with respect to attempts to stop Iran from getting the Bomb, nor with respect to dealing with the “Palestinians”. If you remove this option you automatically strengthen the bargaining position of either Iran or the “Palestinians” as the case may be. On the other hand if Israel were to totally destroy the arsenals of Fatah and Hamas and kill or expel all terrorists and then end the incitement, Israel’s bargaining position would be immensely strengthened.

The Palestinians insist on continuing the incitement and the “resistance” in order to put pressure on Israel to be make more concessions. By allowing them to do so, Israel gives them the upper hand. The Palestinians certainly believe there is only a military solution and so the “resistance” continues, no matter that they are committed to end it by the Oslo Accords and the Roadmap.

Yet Kamm calls our “tone and content contemptible”. We didn’t call for the bombing of Serbia.

Nor did we enable Islam’s Main Achievement in the 20th Century according to Dr Saul Shay in his book, Islamic Terror and the Balkans,

    In the eyes of the radical Islamic circles, the establishment of an independent Islamic territory including Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania along the Adriatic Coast, is one of the most prominent achievements of Islam since the siege of Vienna in 1683. Islamic penetration into Europe through the Balkans is one of the main achievements of Islam in the twentieth century.

Nothing good came out of the bombing of Serbia and nothing good came out of the Oslo Accords, both of which he supported and still supports. How long will it take him to acknowledge the error of his ways.

In my view Israel should first destroy the “resistance” and then negotiate.

February 10, 2007 | 35 Comments »

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  1. Nathan,

    It is not I, but you you who are getting very frustrated and angry and deeply offended by my unwillingness to accept your views. That is apparent from your reply that vascillates from stinging rebukes, to impertinent questions, to condescension and to attributing straw man arguments to me that you quickly knock down.

    You have read far too much into my resistance to accepting your views and invented reasons that do not exist.

    First of all, I did not anywhere challenge the accuracy of your historical research, nor suggest that if the media have their own experts to consult, that their research gets at the truth of the Balkan wars any better than you.

    Secondly, it is not that I have closed my mind to accepting the truths you and Randy offer because I do not want to accept your truths. I have stated that I find your truths irrelevant for the reasons stated, so I needn’t concern myself with them.

    Thirdly, you say I am naive and gullible to believe that the media is there to tell the public the truth. You are putting words in my mouth. In your post #24 you reference Randy’s reply to me in another posting string where I stated:

    the media is usually there to assist the public in getting at the truth.

    I made that general comment as I recall that did not reference or at least was not focused on media bias that I have commented on extensively in other posts. As a general statement, I stand by what I said.

    The more politicized the story, the more the media will put its own spin on things. Most of what the media reports on however is not politicized and the media can be fairly trusted to usually get the pertinent facts, though they might spin some stories to a greater or lesser extent. Media bias becomes more apparent when covering politicized stories and Israel and the Israel – Palestinian conflict falls into that category.

    There are a number of known factors that contribute to media bias in reporting on the Middle East and Israel. I have written pretty extensively on those as well in many other posts. Not one of those factors however require delving into whether there is a ruling elite who masterminded lies about the Balkan wars as you contend and are busy masterminding media lies about Israel.

    Forthly, I believe in the KISS principle meaning Keep It Simple Stupid. Your seeking to explain negative attitudes towards Israel shown by some mainstream media and some Western leaders by calling them lies directed by a group of behind the scenes ruling international elite powerbrokers smacks of conspiracy theory, regardless of the mountain of evidence you say is incontroveritble and in your possession.

    Your explanations find no support in the media nor in conventional knowledge and understandings. You are therefore trying to convince people to your view with arguments based on a history that has not gained public acceptance, that is novel and way too complicated, not to mention will raise suspicions that your views are borne of conspiracy theories all of which make it far more likely then not that you will have a very hard time convincing people to your views.

    Regardless of whether you have a monopoly on truth, your message and arguments offend the KISS principle.

    Finally Nathan, it should not surprise you to hear that I do not share Ted’s view that your arguments are lucid. You will have to just revel in Ted’s applause, but maybe that is sufficient for you.

    Your views and arguments against me are as I have pointed out, tinged with disenginuity as you mis-state things I have said or meant. Further, you have deliberately failed to respond to the central point of my rejection of your views and the reasons for my position, being that your views are irrelevant and hurt pro-Israel advocacy rather than help it.

    If you have learned anything Nathan, it is that you will not win this argument with me using the kind of tactics and arguments you have employed.

  2. Thanks for your supportive comments, Ted. Yes old Joe probably is pro-Israel to a certain extent (I don’t know if he favors a two state solution at this stage or not) but I know for a fact that he was definitely unduly influenced into supporting the KLA by campaign contributions from DioGaurdi’s Albanian lobby group the AACL and APAC. Also he was unduly influenced by MSM media propaganda.But I still don’t think that excuses his support of the KLA because he had to have known what a bunch of heinous Islamofascist terrorist mass murderers they were when he uttered his infamous statemement to the Washington Post a month after clinton and NATO commenced massive bombing, that the “KLA represent human rights and American values”

    He needs to explain himself in light of the evidence that was publicly available on the KLA at the very time when he uttered those infamous words. That is my point. The same holds true of my criticisms of Kamm, Ignatieff and Lantos. They all de facto supported the KLA by default when they called for the Clinton Administration to arm the KLA with US weapons and to bomb Serbia to smithereeens on their behalf so that they can recreate their WW2 Nazi Skanderbeg “Greater Albania” which incidentaly was on DioGuardi’s AACL website not too long ago:

    Very good point about Judea and Samaria. I totally 100% agree with you on that as it relates to the GOI getting it dead wrong on that one.

    Thanks again for your support, Ted. It is deeply appreciated.

  3. This is what Kamm said in Max’s link,

    There was a discussion about political blogging on this morning’s BBC Sunday AM programme. The protagonists were the Tory blogger Iain Dale and the Independent columnist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. The discussion is 28 minutes into the programme. I have taken this link from Harry’s Place, which comments: “So why does the rightwing Dale defend the messy but essentially democratic and egalitarian nature of the blogosphere while the ostensibly leftwing Alibhai-Brown sniffishly compares bloggers to ‘bores in bars’?”

    That question seems to me less important than the debaters’ conclusions; Dale’s are wrong and Ms Alibhai-Brown’s right. There are good and bad blogs, but the medium overall impoverishes our democracy. So far from being “democratic and egalitarian”, the proliferation of political blogs narrows the range of opinion presented in the public square, to the extent that blogs are taken seriously as an intermediary for debate.

  4. Nathan

    Your argument is very lucid but I think that the pro-Israel stance of Joe Lieberman is more than “alleged”, it is fact.

    At the heart of this difference of opinion is the opinion, I think expressed by Felix with regard to Isseroff, that Jews who support the peace process or the two state solution are, ipso facto, enemies of Israel even when they do so in good faith.

    I don’t share that view. Friends of Israel can differ in the best way to ensure Israel’s security. But there is more to the conflict than the question of security both existential or daily.

    There is also the question of Israel’s rights to Judea and Samaria. In my opinion too much stress is place on her security and too little on her rights even by the GOI.

  5. Bill,thank you so much again for your contribution.

    Bill, has it not dawned on you that the mainstream media are owned by massive corporations that are linked to Arab oil and the military industrial complex? Or is that too much for your mind to comprehend and accept the reality of? If you had bothered to look at what I wrote above you would have clearly seen that I mentioned the Israeli-Arab conflict FIRST and then subsequently mentioned the Serbian vs IslamofascistKLA/Izetbegovic SDA+Croatian Nazi conflicts. I tried to explain to you, as has RandyTexas that the very same media corporations who lie about Israel and the Jews also lie about the Serbs and Serbia. Again your mind seems to be incapable of accepting that truth because you do not want to accept it despite the mountains of evidence to support it!!

    And, Bill, just who are these so-called nameless “experts” you cite who the mainstream media always rely on (who you claim are there to assist the public in getting at the the truth) presumably are so “expert” and infallible that they are incapable of LYING about both the Israeli-Arab conflict for the last 40+ years AND incapable of lying about the Serbian vs Islamofascist+Nazi conflicts? Th very same media corporations who again you believe are there to assist us to get at the truth, bring these so-called nameless “experts” on the air and in their newspapers: “experts” who are somehow incapable of lying about the Israelis and the Serbs?!


    Also you claim that I am “trashing” people like Lantos, Lieberman (and presumably Ignatieff also who you failed to mention that I have also “trashed” in your opinion) as if everything I, Peter Robert North and Jared Israel and Francisco Gil-White have written about such people was all just made up and had no basis in fact.

    I challenge you to read Jared Israel’s article “Joe Lieberman, Apologist for the Fascist KLA” and tell me that Jared Israel is wrong, that he has made it all up, misinterpreted the facts,is twisting the truth, got suckered in by “political propaganda from their political enemies”…yadda,yadda,yadda…

    So what if they are “known for their pro-Israel stance”? What does that prove? That because of this alleged public “stance” they are somehow incapable of supporting Jew killing Islamofascist terrorists, Nazis and heroin drug running, child sex slavery racketeering Mafia gangsters in the Balkans?

    Also, you state:

    The Israel – Palestinian conflict and the various positions the West including America have taken in that regard and as regards Israel specifically can be easily explained without the need to accepting your version of the Balkan war history or accepting your belief in the existence of a dark force of elite internationalists that have been at work pulling strings from generation to generation.

    Bill, you make it sound like I am trying to convert you to some new religion!! Both I and Randy Texas have presented you with reams and reams of documented evidence about the people who OWN the media and their links to the military industrial intelligence complex and Arab oil and yet you refuse to accept the reality of the facts because you simply want to belive that the media is there to tell the public the truth. How can you possibly be so naive and gullible Bill?

    If it can all be so “easily explained” as you claim, then please explain why the media lies about Israel and the Jews and presents the Palestinians as helpless victimes of “Israeli oppression” for the last 40+ years of their “reporting”? Please explain how US and European governments support Islamofascist terrorists and Nazis who kill Jews and Christians en masse in the Balkans – terrorists linked to al Qaeda and Iran – and we never hear about it on TV or see it in the papers? Why is this so if the media is free and is there to expose the crimes of governments as you keep implying?

    I already have presented more than enough evidence from Israeli and Jewish sources (such as Yoseef Bodansky and Yohanan Ramati) and pro-Israel Gentile sources in the US and Europe (such as the world renowned International Strategic Studies Association) on the links between bin Laden’s al Qaeda, Iran, Libya and Izetbegovic and the KLA, BUT YET YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH DESPITE THE MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE. How you can say that this connection between the very same people who are trying to obliterate Israel is all “irrelevant” is just mind-boggling!!

    It is clear you are getting very frustrated and angry and deeply offended with my exposure of these people whom you presumably hold in such high esteeem and have put on a pedestal. It appears you would prefer that I just forget about it all and pretend like their de facto in effect support for Islamofascist Jeww killers in the Balkans never happened. You also say that I am “taking away” from your understanding of the Israel-Arab conflict by highlighting these links between the very same Islamofascist forces who are slowly destroying Israel and are threatening it with nuclear annihilation. How strange of you to say that!

    I will leave you with the words of my dear friend on Israpundit, RandyTexas, who has studied the corporate power elite quite extensively and has mountains of documentation at his disposal to prove their activities and existence:

    There is no lack of evidence for it is on open display before the world, the only lack is of eyes that are willing to behold it. Comment #24

  6. Nathan, has it not dawned on you that the reason your’s and Peter’s herculean efforts to get your truths about the Serbs and Muslims in the Balkan wars out into the public through the main stream media is not because the media is controlled by some ruling elite, but rather that the media have chosen to put their faith in other experts whose version of history you seek to challenge?

    You say, “we are not “trashing” anyone who is innocent of supporting, by default, the scourge of Islamofascism and Nazism in the Balkans”. That necessarily infers that Lieberman, Lantos and Kamm are deserving of being trashed by you. I strenuously reject and object to your trashing these people. It seems to me that you have become far too carried away by your convictions to recognize that you are only discrediting yourself by such strident and serious accusations against people who are known for their pro-Israel stance.

    The Israel – Palestinian conflict and the various positions the West including America have taken in that regard and as regards Israel specifically can be easily explained without the need to accepting your version of the Balkan war history or accepting your belief in the existence of a dark force of elite internationalists that have been at work pulling strings from generation to generation. For that reason, your views are irrelevant to me.

    Further, for reasons I explained in my post #23, I think your views do far more harm then good in bringing us closer to a better understanding of the Israel – Palestinian conflict.

  7. Bill, many thanks for your contribution. I will try and keep this as short as possible. Forgive me if you feel it’s too long. Please understand Bill, we are not “trashing” anyone who is innocent of supporting, by default, the scourge of Islamofascism and Nazism in the Balkans. The people we are criticizing here have acquiesced, by their silence, on Islamofascist mass murder of Jews,Serbs and Romanies in Kosovo. By their acquiescence they are in effect supporting these monsters to commit their genocide unimpeded. Don’t forget that both Lieberman and Lantos called for the arming of the KLA -a known Islamofascist terrorist drug-running and child sex slavery racketeering mafia organization – notorious for beheadings, throat slitting and disembowelment of Serbs, Jews and Romanies in Kosovo. The entire Jewish community in Kosovo was expelled in Kristallnacht style pogroms by the KLA that Lantos and Lieberman undeniably supported, along with 350,000 Serbs,Romanies and 17 other ethnic groups that lived in the province for centuries.

    As I wrote in another comment,and Felix agrees with me on this, Israpundit and Zionism is not just about protecting and defending the state of Israel, but also about protecting and defending all Jews and their Christian allies from Islamofascist mass murderers in other parts of the world, such as the Balkans. It is our solemn duty to do so and to expose those who supported Islamofascist mass murderers and ethnic cleansers of Jews, Romanies and Serbs like Izetbegovic and the KLA, regardless of these individuals ostensible “support for Israel” only.

    Bill, the reason why we don’t bother going to the media but prefer to write on blog websites like Israpundit is because we know that the media is controlled and not truly free as it purports to be.

    I personally can attest to Peter’s herculean efforts to get the truth out about the Israeli vs Palestinian Arab conflict as well as the Serbian vs Islamofascist Izetbegovic+Tudjman Croatian Ustasha Nazi conflict in the Balkans because I have been a direct witness to Peter’s sterling efforts to get the truth out.

    In all cases the media just rebuffs and ignores you or the reporter who picks up the phone at the newsdesk sometimes confesses in private that their hands are tied: that they can only write or produce TV reports that conform to the herd mentality and pro-internationalist culture of the mainstream media who are invariably owned by multi-billion dollar mega corporations owned and in other ways connected to the globalist power elite via membership of interlocking organizations such as the CFR, Trilateral Commission, Carnegie Endowment, Bilderberg Group,Bohemian Grove,Skull and Bones, RIIA and the Round Table groups.

    The big TV networks and newspapers are only interested in promoting their Goebbels style Big Lie concerning world events like the ME and Balkans conflicts because they are part of the same mindset,culture,philosophy and world view as the internationalist globalist elite circles that own them.

    I don’t know if you recall Randy’s comments from a previous thread, so I will reproduce them below:

    Randy’s comment #5 on this thread is as follows:

    The discussion Ted started was about the snow job on society by the government and the media; they are the “they” I was referring to along with the so called “human rights” NGOs who provide the propaganda. You should be familiar with these so called humanitarian organizations because they are constantly non-stop accusing the state of Israel of crimes and abuses against the Palestinians. These agenda driven NGOs are used to source articles by the MSM just as in the article I noted in post #2.

    I really should not need to name by name who “they” are seeing that their names are continually popping up everyday in comments here on Israpundit since most of them are always slamming or demanding something from Israel.

    You state that,

    The public are usually not such gullible sheep. They have at least some capacity to exercise their own judgment and the media is usually there to assist the public in getting at the truth.

    I beg to differ, if it were so world history books would not be so grim. The public operates off of the information feed to it and as far as the media getting the truth to them I believe there is sufficient evidence of widespread media bias today by the major outlets.

    Remember, for 10-15 years before we went into Iraq the media and world governments declare with certainty that Saddam had massive amounts of WMD. They ran documentaries and specials for years with footage and declared him a world threat. Now they act as though that never happened and it was all made up at a ranch in Crawford Texas. Did they deceive us then or are they deceiving us now?

    Bill, unless you have studied the history of the internationalist globalist elite, it is like trying to walk through a maze, blindfolded.

    These people have a shared mindset, a shared culture, a philosophy, a way of viewing the world and a way of viewing the public, whom they refer to as the “ignorant masses”(sometimes they are more honest in private and call us “sheeple” or “cattle” implying that we are merely animals who are intellectually inferior to them and therefore it is their right, duty and mission in life to control,bamboozle and manipulate us with their mighty but mindless mainstream media “infotainment” indoctrination machine).

    This has nothing to do with so called “conspiracy”, since they do not all join together in a dark underground chamber to “plot” anything in secret. Try and think of it this way, Bill: a global elite club. In this club you are allowed to join by invitation only. Outsiders are not welcome. Once you are invited to join and become one of them so to speak, in order to progress your political career and to move up the heirarchical ladder of elite political global power you have to abide by certain rules: certain norms of conduct. In order “to get along, you have to go along” as the old saying goes.

    You have to abide by the culture and philosophy of the club. The club has an inner circle and an outer circle – think of the multiple layers of an onion in order to understand the structure – the inner circle is the most powerful and it is here that real power lays and the real inner core of the most powerful elitists reside. These are the people who are at the top of the political elite pyramid. They are the ones who groom new aspiring political talent and determine whether or not a potential candidate for President or Prime Minister of a Western country will rise up the ranks of heirarchical political power and one day become President of the United States or Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, for example.
    Trying to understand their motives – their insatiable lust for power and their greed – as you have in some of your previous comments on other threads, is like trying to understand the motives of a serial killer. We are more concerned with their policies are going to eventually lead us with their criminal acts of high treason and appeasement of despotic, nuclear armed terrorist sponsoring states like North Korea and Iran.

    Please try and understand this Bill: the reason why understanding the truth of what really happened in the Balkans conflict of the 90’s is so vitally important and relevant to the Israel-Arab conflict is because the very same elite internationalists who destroyed Yugoslavia and Serbia by supporting the Islamofascists of Izetbegovic and the KLA are also the very same internationalist globalist elites who are behind the protection and promotion of PLO/Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah, the Oslo Accords, the Road Map, and the appeasement of Iran and North Korea.

    These are the very same people who want to sacrifice the sovereignty and independence of Israel as a viable nation state of the Jewish people. The very same people behind the military intervention in the Balkans are behind the policies of appeasement of the Islamofascists in the Middle East, North Korea and Iran. They are willing to sacrifice sovereign independent nation states like Israel in order to bring the Islamic masses into the globalist “one world” collectivist system.

    Remember, it was the CFR who succeeded, in July, 2004, in convincing Bush to prevent Israel from launching a unilateral military strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities,thus giving the Islamofascist mullahs 31 additional months to develop a nuclear weapon capabilty.

    The same CFR elitists succeeded in convincing Bush to adopt Clinton-era appeasement policies of bribing North Korea in order to supposedly forestall their nuclear weapons programme: we can now see the insanity of those policies with the successful test firings of North Korean ballistic missiles which can now reach the continental United States!

    The CFR is the same globalist elitist outfit that apart from personally inviting Ahmadinejad to the CFR headquarters as an honored guest, and calling for a televized Bush-Ahmadinejad debate, also said that they oppose a US enforced regime change in Iran and implied that if the US molly-coddles and bribes Ahmadinejad and the mullahs, that in time, the Islamofascist regime will gradually become more democratic!!

    The idiocy of that CFR policy – adopted and implemented by Bush – 31 months after it was taken on board is now glaringly obvious for all the Western Judeo-Christian world to see. The lunacy of the CFR’s “strategic advice” adopted and implemented by Bush can also be seen by Iran’s growing boldness and arrogance with their recent threats against the United States and the West.

    Like I said earlier, similar CFR appeasement/bribery policies towards North Korea have also emboldened the totalitarian Stalinist regime of Kim Jong Il with their test firing of ICBMs that can reach the USA armed with nuclear warheads: thumbing their noses at the Judeo-Christian Western world.

    When will we all wake up to what the internationalist globalist elite are leading us into?!

    See the two articles below for further information:

    CFR to Bush: Stop Israeli strike on Iran’s nuke sites

    Bad dealings with North Korea

  8. To Felix, Nathan, Randy and those others of the same pro-Balkan Serb and anti-Balkan Muslim mindset.

    You are all adherents of the views of Jared Israel, Francisco Gil-White and other historians focussed on setting the record straight regarding that slice of history regarding the relative evil or culpability of the Serbs and the Muslims in the Balkan wars. You go from there to trashing Tom Lantos, Joe Lieberman and now Oliver Kamm (whom I never heard of until his name came up in these posts) all self avowed supporters of Israel, accusing them of supporting the Islamofacists, supporting the bombing of the Serbs and really in effect are supporters of radical Isalm and not Israel.

    Felix you stated in your post #8:

    I think this is a defeat Ted and it is caused by you, but I think more than by you because you have been under pressure, but by all those people on Israpundit who have not spoken up in support of the Serb people on this, and I refer especially to Bill, Jerry and Joseph in this regard.

    I will let Jerry and Joseph speak for themselves, if they care to. I do care to speak out.

    I have not come out in support of you, Nathan, Randy and others whom have written views on Israpundit or whose views are referenced on this issue of the Balkan wars because I do not see what direct and immediate relevance all this has to Israel and to the Israel Palestinian conflict.

    If you are right that America and Europe took the wrong side in supporting the Muslims in the Balkan wars, that one fact might help a bit to explain the thinking of American and European leaders as regards Israel, but that is just one fact amongst a great many other factors including some of far greater relevance and currency in that regard.

    I have raised before with Nathan the question why the media have not come to see the truths he has advocated at Israpundit regarding the Balkan wars. Nathan has not directly responded, except to give me tons of web references.

    I have suggested to Nathan that if he, Jared Israel, Robert Peter North and Francisco Gil-White devoted as much time and energy to reaching and convincing the media to their views of history as they do to filling up Israpundit with historical references to convince followers of Israpundit, maybe they might get somewhere. Again, Nathan has not directly responded.

    I know somethings about Joe Lieberman and what I know convinces me he is an Israel supporter. I do not know much about Tom Lantos other than that he seems to be a supporter of Israel. I know hardly anything about Oliver Kamm other than having read the articles referenced in this post. While he is an advocate of a two state solution for the Israel-Palestinian conflict and against a one state solution as has been variously explained on Israpundit, it appears he too is a supporter of Israel.

    Nathan’s attacks on these 3 people are just over the top for me.

    It is tough enough to try to sort through the history of the Jews, of Israel since 1948 and the Muslim Middle East as regards Israel and then try to explain things in a coherent and easily understood fashion that can be grasped by the majority of Westerners.

    The fact that the majority of Westerners and their leaders continue to advocate as they do for a two state solution and the fact that such thinking also has considerable traction in Israel speaks volumes at just how difficult it is to try to gain support for the idea that it is chasing a fools dream to believe that the Palestinians and so many of their Middle Eastern Muslim supporters, can shed their intractable hatreds of Jews and Israelis and that the Palestinians will be capable of having and maintaining their own independent state in a stable political and societal union that can live in peace and harmony with their neighbor Israel.

    Trying to introduce American and European stances against the Serbs and in support of the Muslims in the Balkans, some 14 years ago does nothing to help understanding the current Israel – Palestinian conflict and Western policies in that regard and in fact hurts those efforts to bring understanding by adding even more confusion and complexity to the whole of the issue and worse, it takes away from the central focus of pro-Israel advocacy and the fundamental divide between what Israel is all about and what it stands for and what the Palestinians and many in the Muslim Middle East world are all about and what they stand for. It also takes away from efforts to open Westerner’s eyes to just how much Palestinian Jew and Israel hatred as well as Christian and Western hatred fills that divide.

    As for trashing Lantos, Lieberman and now Kamm as Nathan and others have done in my view undermines their own credibility as regards what truths they want to bring to the fore concerning the Balkan wars.

    The foregoing are some of the reasons that I do not stand with any of you in your seeking to find answers to the current Israel – Palestinian conflict and Western attitudes and policies as regards Israel and the Middle East in what you say really happened during the Balkan wars.

  9. Somebody above, Barnsleys Beck, wrote to the effect that Kamm is a bit of a joke. I understand what you are saying and the power of witty invective is a wonderful weapon if you have it, and you certainly have.

    But in my reading of Kamms site or rather associate site of Harrys Place I very quickly formed the conclusion that these people are quite adept at using a pseudo form of humour to deflect criticism.

    I would be very loath to stray into that territory too far.

    What needs to be done really is that readers of Israpundit need to understand better the politics of Kamm, and this circle around Kamm which takes in Nik Cohen, whose book is now being given huge publicity.

    Also I think Randy who has made a great contribution here has to be careful about his use of these words left and right. This leads into a real trap hard to get out of.

    Very often the political consciousness of a whole generation can centre around a few people. Kamm often disparages his own “modest” role but do not be deceived. This man is very influential. Look back and read that email that Ted-s friend sent to him in a genuine moment of need and pressure upon Ted. That expressed the thought that Kamm was our very good friend. But he was not and he will not be.

    If we can come to terms with the politics of Oliver Kamm, and through that with the politics of the British middle class as well as with people like Liebermann, then that will strengthen the Jewish struggle, and through that the struggle of the Serbs, because the Serbs are in a really bad way, they have taken a huge battering, and it is a minor miracle that they have any national hopes left.

  10. For the article containing the pro-KLA Capitol Hill lobbying group, the Albanian American Civic League and its founder, ex-Congressman Joe DioGuardi lauding Senator Joseph Biden and Congressman Tom Lantos, and inviting specially “honored” dinner guests to the Sheraton Hotel in New York City such as KLA/NLA Albanian Islamofascist terrorist mass murderers Ramush Haradinaj and Ali Ahmeti, see the link below:

  11. As Felix said in another thread, we need to take these photos and videos to US politicians such as Senator Joseph Biden (See )and Senator Joseph Lieberman, Congressmen Tom Lantos, Benjamin Gilman, Henry Hyde, Eliot Engel,Frank R.Wolf,Steny Hoyer et al, and demand an explanation for their de facto support, by default, of the Bosnian Islamists and the KLA & Albanian mafia dominated Serbian province of Kosovo (the Serbs’ Jerusalem) being torn away from Serbia by a bunch of heinous mass murdering Islamofascist Nazi terrorists.

    Especially we need to ask how any ostensibly pro-Israel Jewish Senator or Congressman can, by default, support these Islamofascist monsters against the Serbs whilst brazenly lying about and/or covering up or whitewashing the Islamofascists’ genocidal crimes and motives to their US voting constituents.These hypocritical politicians need to be exposed before another Islamofascist terrorist state is formed: this time not in the Middle East, but right in the heart of Europe.

    See the articles below supporting this conclusion:

    Ignore at Peril: the Growing Cauldron of Kosovo and Bosnia. Defense & Foreign Affairs Strategic Policy. Alexandria: Nov/Dec 2005.Vol.33, Iss. 11/12; pg. 7, 3 pgs


    This US (CFR) government policy is a grievous insult to and betrayal of Western Judeo-Christian values. It is also a grievous insult to the 350,000 Serbs, Jews & Roma and the 17 other ethnic groups who were brutally expelled and 6,000+ murdered after NATO/EU troops and UN officials took over the province.

    Also check out the links in: Comments #1 & #2 Comments #19 & #20

  12. Ted, if someone de facto supports Islamofascist mass murderers like Alija Izetbegovic and KLA leaders Agim Ceku, Ramush Haradinaj and Hashim Thaci by default, by calling for the arming of the KLA and massive bombing of Serbia during the 1990’s, egregiously lies about Milosevic and refuses to acknowledge the Islamofascist terrorist nature of Izetbegovic and co. and the KLA, but instead whitewashes their Islamofascist nature and covers up or minimizes their monstrous crimes of genocide against non-Muslims (mainly Serbs,Jews & Romanies),and viciously attacks,slanders,libels and defames anyone who disagrees with them but then has the nerve to hypocritically threaten those who expose them with legal action, then they need to be exposed for the glaring hypocrites that they are: and what better place to do it than right here on the pages of the site most dedicated to truth, liberty and justice: Israpundit!!!

    To Felix and Randy, thank you so very much for defending me. If Oliver Kamm can prove I am lying or deluded about the true nature of Izetbegovic and Milosevic let him send Ted any independently verifiable and corroborated documented evidence from independent non-NATO government, non-Soros NGO sources to back up his charges against Milosevic and exculpate and exonerate Izetbegovic, Ceku, Haradinaj and Thaci as not being the Islamofascist terrorist killers that they have been documented on Israpundit umpteen times in the past to really be, I will personally apologize to Kamm. I am a reasonable man dedicated to defending the truth and I am definitely not about maliciously attacking innocent, honest people who would never de facto side with, or otherwise whitewash Islamofascists and their genocidal crimes against Jews and Christians in the Balkans.

    I am not some “hard right diaspora Zionist” or “conspiracy theorist” as Kamm now disparages and denigrates all of us here at Israpundit on his pompous,egotistical self-righteous pontificating liberal blog. While I am indeed a patriotic Zionist and an ardent anti-globalist conservative dedicated to the principles of sovereignty and preserving independent nation-states like Israel, I am not some bigoted narrow-minded reactionary extremist as Kamm now tries to imply all of the decent folks here at Israpundit are.

    Everything I have written about Izetbegovic, Milosevic and the KLA, I can back up with reams of hard documented evidence from a multitude of different, reputable and highly respected independent sources in Israel, the United States and UK, so Kamm is just throwing puerile insults around when he accuses Israpundit of engaging in “conspiracy theory”.

    It’s because Kamm has ZERO evidence to back up any of his claims against Milosevic being a “genocidal aggressor” and we have reams of it at Israpundit for our case against the Bosnian Nazi Islamists of Izetbegovic and the fascist KLA that he has to engage in such facile and ridiculous ad hominem labelling/name calling by accusing us of being “hard right diaspora Zionists”; implying that we are all extremist war mongers because of our masthead: “There is Only a Military Solution”.

    To “Barnsleys Beck”: re Comments #4, #10, & #11: that was gut splittingly funny and very witty! We need more humorous, witty people like you here, so I hope you will stick around! 🙂

    Dear Ted, re your Comment #14. You are right on target. Good on you for elucidating the best course of action that Israel needs to take at this time before it is too late. That, and an immediate unilateral military strike of overwhelming ferocity on Iran’s nuclear facilities without waiting for the “green light” from CFR-dominated Washington.

    Also, your comments #13, #17 and especially #15. Ted, in this comment, you have expressed succinctly what Felix’s and my prime concern and fear for the future safety of Israel is from the globalist “humanitarian interventionists” of the Morton Abramowitz, George Soros, Madeleine Albright, Bill & Hillary Clinton mold who are making a comeback in a huge way in preparation for 2008.

    We absolutely must hold these Morton Abramowitz/George Soros globalist neo-liberal “humanitarian interventionists” from the Clinton-era accountable for the utter chaos they have unleashed globally by deliberately promoting and nurturing these Islamofascist terrorists as geopolitical weapons of choice against the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo during the 1990’s.

    The terrorist attacks of 9/11, Madrid 3/11/04 and London 7/07/05 is proof enough of the insanity of their neo-liberal globalist policies during the 90’s.

    Thank you also to my friend Randy Sprinkle (RandyTexas) for your supportive comments and defense of my “chutzpah” against these globalist liberal “humanitarian interventionist” hypocrites! 🙂

    To Felix’s comment #8 where he states:

    As Nathan and Peter have pointed out they are creating a stick to beat their own backs. They are facing the same Islamofascists who will be looking down upon them from the Hills of Judea if all of these people also have their way and create a Palestinian state.

    All this business about proving intent in the case of Kamm supporting or not supporting the Islamofascists in Yugoslavia is political rubbish.

    We are looking at their role now.

    The evidence for Islamofascist cruelty of the worst kind it is impossible to imagine is there in black and white print, in pictures and even I believe in videos, because these monsters wanted to keep a record of their decapitation of Serbs.

    Yet they turn their backs on this evidence.

    In that sense that is what Kamms´legal threats were all about.

    These people are determined to keep this information hidden from the public.

    Felix, you hit the nail squarely on the head there!! That is indeed what this is really all about!

    Do you need additional evidence of the Islamofascist “snuff” beheading photographs and videos, including their videos of desecration of Orthodox Christian churches, which you will not have seen in the so called Western “free press” or TV: eg, the London Guardian, New York Times, Washington Post or on BBC, CBC, ITN, MSNBC,CBS, ABC, CNN et al over the last 15 + years?

    No problem. I am reposting these below. As you view them, just keep in mind that the circle around Kamm at the British website “Harry’s Place” either deny all of this outright as simply “anti-Muslim propaganda” or try to minimize the enormity of it all by lying through their teeth that it was all merely in “revenge for Milosevic’s genocide against the muslims”. Of course, we at Israpundit know that there is not a shred of evidence to support such a charge against Milosevic since the NATO owned globalist Hague ICTY Stalinist style “show trial” of Milosevic was unable to find a shred of evidence either in over 4.5 years!! (Which of course helps explain why the NATO appointed “judges” deliberately denied him urgently needed specialist medical care and fed him a cocktail of dangerous drugs including the leprosy drug Rifampicine in order to “speed up the process” of Milosevic’s death from supposedly “natural causes”)

    (See the superb British conservative anti-globalist anti-EU website of Rodney Atkinson at

    Links to the Western media suppressed videos of Bosnian Islamist Jihadist beheadings of Orthodox Christian Serbs follow:

    (Remember folks, these videos are being openly sold on market stands in Sarajevo, the Bosnian capital right now!)

    (Videos of Islamofascist beheadings and mutilations of Serbs in Bosnia)

    See additional photographic and video proof below of their Islamofascist genocidal crimes:

    KLA Cut Off People’s Heads: Murderers’ Bloody Feast!! (photo of UN backed & funded “Kosovo Protection Corps” KLA members smiling with cut off Serbians’ heads)

    Persecution of Kosovo Christians Said to Reveal Larger Threat (Video of Islamofascist Kosovo Albanians engaging in ‘Kristallnacht’ style pogroms against the Serbs: desecrating dozens of Orthodox Christian churches as EU/NATO troops & UN officials do nothing but watch )

    UN & EU/NATO backed former self-styled “Prime Minister of Kosovo” Ramush Haradinaj: mass murderer of civilians in Kosovo in 1998, including children in a cafe, freed after serving no time in prison by the Hague ICTY “war crimes tribunal” kangaroo court, at the insistence of KLA & Albanian mafia largesse beneficiary, ex-Assistant Secretary of State under Clinton: Richard Holbrooke(Link contains photos of the corpses floating in a canal)

    Recent guest of Condoleeza Rice in Washington: UN & EU/NATO backed self-styled current “Prime Minister of Kosovo”, former Croatian “Operation Storm” commander under the fascist anti-Semitic Holocaust denier, Franjo Tudjman in 1995: ethnic Albanian and KLA military commander in 1999, Agim Ceku and his bloody crimes in Croatia against Serbian civilians in Operation “Medak Pocket” in 1993, witnessed by Canadian UN peacekeepers

    Serbian lobbying group, American Council For Kosovo, protests recent visit to Washington by former KLA military commander and mass murderer of Serbs in Croatian Ustasha Nazi “Operation Storm” ethnic cleansing campaign, Agim Ceku invited to Washington at the insistence of Rice:

  13. Liberals also support intervention as a tool of establishing the New World Order and for vitiating the principle of sovereignty.

    This is true; however, conservative elitists have the same ambitions of the New World Order but a different vision of it. They are both willing to use force to facilitate transition but there is a power struggle over the some of the ideology that this international system should embrace and the degree of socialism that should be practiced. Russia, China, and the USA all want a New World Order but they are not in agreement on the ideological foundations(Marxist vs Democratic)- You are seeing this now in the exchange of barbs between Russia and the USA over power and influence.

    Unfortunately, in the long term it will not matter who wins out if international institutions are given global authority over nations. In the long term the gravitation of whatever exists will be to universal socialism which will eventually threaten small nations such as Israel and minority political ideologies in large nations.

    It is a tragedy that this is taking place but that there are so many misconceptions and bizarre theories spread about it that it seems surreal and is discredited.

    The use of NATO against the Serbs is a real cause for concern of future actions as is the fact that the international community is taking it upon itself to become the final arbitrator in cases of dispute or conflict around the globe. This could become mob rule of the nations.

    I have begun a series of articles on my blog in which I hope to simplify facts and clear up some misconceptions of The New World Order and what internationalization will actually create. The first part, which is posted, is largely philosophical but the subsequent articles will be heavier on historical events and quotes of proponents for a global authority to manage world affairs.

  14. The problem with “liberal interventionism” is to decide when is it appropriate. It is sometimes called “humanitarian interventionism”. Is its purpose merely to protect people who are being destroyed or perhaps just oppressed. Or is it to liberate people who want self determination in defiance of sovereignty. Does it matter that Islamists are being liberated as was the case in Serbia and Israel.

    How can these questions be divorced from political objectives.

    Liberals generally support intervention for humanitarian purposes. Many liberals opposed intervention in Iraq, yet Iraqis were being killed and oppressed, because it believed it was for imperialistic motives. Yet many liberals supported intervention in Serbia because they believed that there were humanitarian reasons to do so unsullied by imperialistic motives like national self interest.

    God forbid the US should act in their own interest even if it saves lives.

    Liberals also support intervention as a tool of establishing the New World Order and for vitiating the principle of sovereignty.

  15. Ted,

    The contrast you make between Kamm’s condemnation of Israpundit’s belief that the Middle-East conflict will only be settled by force, and his advocacy for the bombing of Serbia, is both a brilliant and valid expose‘ of Kamm‘s hypocrisy.

    For Kamm, at what point was a military solution in the Balkans the only option.

    I would hope that Kamm’s attack on Israpundit would not deter the open discussions or soften the truths that Israpundit has dared to stand up for.

    As for Israpundit’s masthead which proclaims ”THERE IS ONLY A MILITARY SOLUTION,” it must be understood in context. This phrase is not an incitement for war as detractors would paint it but it is a realization. It is not a pleasant or desired realization but it is nonetheless a realization that has been arrives at after much thought and analysis of the circumstances in the region over many years.

    If anyone is slandering anyone it is Kamm who is slandering Israpundit as extremist and warmongers.

    I personally I would disregard Kamm’s subtle threats as the charges made against him are opinions that would not qualify as slander or hold up in litigation, except in a socialist or totalitarian society. In most US courts such complaints would only serve to make eyes roll.

    What is reveled here by Kamm’s reaction is the sensitivity of liberals, their ability to dish out harsh criticisms (which are often distortions) but their thin skins when their views and beliefs are examined – I would also add it is a display of a reactionary nature that desires to be tolerant toward others who diametrically oppose them, but in practice find it a difficult struggle at best.

    Kamm’s reaction of anger betrays his insecurity, if comments about him on Israpundit are as absurd as he claims he should have rolled his eyes and moved on. I do it all the time and would never consider any action other than rebuttal unless a credible unlawful physical threat was made.

    The left and the right accuse each other for promoting policies that are destructive and serve to make problems worse. This happens millions of times everyday in communications.

    Kamm for the most part believes everything about the right that has been said about him.
    Issue #2

    Nathan seems to be the one breathing the most fire and while I have not had a chance to read all of Nathan’s lengthy comments, what I have read I agree with.

    While I hold no personal animosities toward leftists many of their policies are as hurtful and destructive as Nathan claims.

    I am sorry that reality is harsh and I respect Nathan’s chutzpah in holding nothing back, for his comments are at the very least worthy of consideration and thoughtful examination even if the way he puts it all blows the feathers off of a few birds.

    Attacks on liberal philosophy in regards to the “peace process” and the situation in the ME are nothing personal, but liberal misconceptions are so serious that they must be addressed, and the hope of criticism is enlightenment, not the destruction of anyone other than those terrorist who have sold their souls to destroying others.

    Ted wrote:

    But if he comes to accept that there is no peace process or that liberation of Palestinians is no longer plausible, would he then argue that the western democracies (NATO) should send in the troops to liberate the Palestinians?
    This is exactly what Felix and Nathan and I are worried about.

    Ted, add me to that list, I don’t know if it will be NATO but the precedent has been set and this is a very very real possibility, especially in light of the recent movement to legitimize the International Criminal Court in the Hague

    (Note: there is an ongoing gradual process to establish international institutions of authority and even though Israel has not ratified at some point when there are enough signatories it will be considered moot. There are 104 Nations who have ratified the treaty for the ICC. Clinton signed on to the Treaty of Rome but did not ratify because of up coming elections. Bush withdrew support for the treaty citing concerns; however the UN still has the US listed as a signatory who has yet to ratify. If the US ratifies, it would be another potential threat to the State of Israel. You never know when you are going to get a “Jimmy Carter” president who will ratify and take action along with the other nations against Israel to force a “peace” in the region.).

  16. Oliver Kamm commented in the Guardian on Jan 30/07 on Nick Cohen’s book What’s Left? under the heading, What’s Left is right.

    In it, he came out clearly in favour of “liberal interventionism”.

    The left, with few exceptions, seems not so much content as insouciant at the political damage sustained by an approach that in the 1990s rebuffed the genocidal aggression of Slobodan Milosevic, preserved Sierra Leone from the vicious rule of private armies, and overthrew theocratic barbarism in Afghanistan.

    We on the left had, and retain, a responsibility to stand with those whose only plausible prospect of liberation is intervention by western democracies. That responsibility is not, and never has been, adequately discharged by the solipsistic insistence that the cause of regime change is “not in my name”.

    Thus he is clearly in favour of the US and UK attacks in the Balkans, Afghanistan and Iraq. Following this principle might he also be in favour of military intervention against Israel in favour of the “Palestinians”?

    No doubt he would argue that it doesn’t apply to Israel because the “peace process” provides “a plausible prospect of liberation”. But if he comes to accept that there is no peace process or that liberation of Palestinians is no longer plausible, would he then argue that the western democracies (NATO) should send in the troops to liberate the Palestinians?

    This is exactly what Felix and Nathan and I are worried about.

  17. Legion also asks a good question though I don’t agree with some of his statements. The decline is Israel’s position began with the Oslo Accords. The improvement in Israel’s position requires the abrogation of Oslo. Israel should impose a solution rather than to just stand there and allow itself to be imposed upon. First, it must invade Gaza and completely destroy the arsenals and manufacturing facilities. Secondly it should retake the southern border at Rafah and prevent smuggling and and tunneling. It can then decide to remain in all of Gaza or just in Rafah.

    It should also end the PA and annex Judea and Samaria.

    All terrorists and their families should be expelled. All incitement in schools, mosques and media should be outlawed. All arms confiscated. Any body who doesn’t turn in their arms should be expelled. All Arabs should be given the option of citizenship over time and with certain conditions or emigration with financial incentives. Some autonomy can be given.

    When Hezbollah attacks Israel, Israel should invade Lebanon and destroy Hezbollah and retake Southern Lebanon. The fighting should ge so aggressive that all inhabitants will flee to north of the Litani to save their lives. Then Israel should remain in occupation of this vacated no man’s land until a satisfactory peace treaty is agreed upon. If Syria makes trouble they should be bombed.

    That’s the military solution.

  18. Pearlstein and Quigley shouldn’t be ignored. They ask a very good question. In pursuit of the answer at least from Kamm, I wrote to him as follows,

    Mr Kamm

    I have a lingering question that Pearlstein and Quigley keep asking that I believe must be answered. I am hoping you might write a post or email rationalizing your position.

    In fact I believe that it is incumbant on all supporters of Israel who supported the bombing of Serbia, to justify it. Any such justification must start by identifying fact from fiction as they see. Finally they have a duty to inform, given the fact that the bombing has resulted in ethnic cleansing and the soon to be created Islamist state, whether it has proved to be a mistake.

    From our point of view, there are paralells to be drawn between the demonization of the Serbs and of Israel by the west, particularly the Left, and the whitewashing of the Muslims lead by the “moderate” Izetbegovic and by the “moderate” Abbas. We fear the same alliances of forces will force Israel to capitulate.

    We are asking the same question of Senator Lieberman.

    May I hear from you on this very important issue.

  19. Goody. A heated debate! I would ask that the this and that attacks upo9n this or that one be put aside for a moment and ask instead: if there is but a military solution, then spellout exactly what it is to be…who attacks what nations or areas and then, assuming “vioctory, ” who occupies what and for how long? If you are coun tin g on your pal, Bush, the this might enlighten a bit:

    “t is no wonder that Israeli policy-makers have had little to say to the Palestinian reconciliation accord which Saudi king Abdullah brokered in Mecca last week. Israel was shouldered off the stage as a player in Palestinian politics, as was any hope of moderating the Palestinian anti-Israel war, a breakthrough to peace talks – or even a form of long-term coexistence.

    Its main outcome was the anointing of Hamas as unconditional king of the Palestinian domain.

    This decline in Israel’s standing as a factor in Middle East politics dates back to the Lebanon War and its outcome last summer. If there are to be any accommodations with Israel, the Mecca accord has relegated them to an uncertain future and entirely on Saudi-Hamas terms.

    At Mecca, the Saudi monarch had quite different fish to fry: the replacement of Tehran as Hamas’ senior financier and backer. To this end, he dictated a reshuffle in both rival Palestinian groups, Hamas and Fatah.”

    and the ,military solution to this? attack Saudi Arabia? Let’s hear about it in print, please

  20. That last comment should have read

    What do you expect him to do ? Admit he got it wrong on the Balkans ? After all , he memorably chose the same side as Al Qaeda , the MB , VEVAK , ISI , etc in the Balkans

  21. Felix , you wrote ,

    I have looked again at Kamm’s site and the way he portays this experience I can only call it a victory for him and a defeat for us.

    What do expect ? The guys good for a laugh , and memorably chose the same side as Al Qaeda , the MB , VEVAK , ISI , etc in the Balkans .

    Your first quote concerning him was spot on mind , namely

    This fellow Kmm is in my opinion a real phoney more to be pitied than scorned

    And on his unintentionally funny blog he quotes Paddy Ashdown , the guy who was an eye witness at the Hague yet didn’t know which country he was in . He was in Yugoslavia but told the court he was in Albania . Priceless . A pure Captain Mainwaring moment

    But to Kamm , Paddy is G I Joe and so we have the wonderful result of reading one pompous buffoon quoting another . It’s for that reason that I have a sneaking feeling that Kamm is simply a spoof character from the guys who did Alan Partridge . Must be .

  22. Ted

    I have looked again at Kamm’s site and the way he portays this experience I can only call it a victory for him and a defeat for us.

    There was only one thing to do in this and that was to defend our colleague Nathan. That is because he is right on the issues which lie behind this whole issue.

    It boils down to this.

    We have a mass of information about what took place in the Balkans and we have printed it on the web.

    This information is available to the circle around Kamm, and that includes Lantos and Liebermann, and they have decided to hide it.

    They have hidden the terrible pictures we have seen of decapitation of Serbs at the hands of these grizzly Islamist monsters.

    That means that they have taken up a political position in relation to these monsters, does it not! And how then can you characterise these people like Kamm, Liebermann or Lantos and there are many others. You tell me Ted how you can characterise these people who work to hide this vital knowledge!

    I think that the issue is this.

    Is the Zionist Movement as we understand it just concerned with the affairs of Israel and with nothing else.

    I think it is not. Even apart from the fact that Jews and Serbs were massacred together in the Holocaust along with the Romany people the Zionist movement has a duty to expose what Islamofascism did to the Serbs.

    That is the point of contact with Kamm, Lantos, Liebermann and people like that.

    There are many people on Israpundit who have not made up their minds, or who worse have decided against supporting the Serbs on this issue.

    As Nathan and Peter have pointed out they are creating a stick to beat their own backs. They are facing the same Islamofascists who will be looking down upon them from the Hills of Judea if all of these people also have their way and create a Palestinian state.

    All this business about proving intent in the case of Kamm supporting or not supporting the Islamofascists in Yugoslavia is political rubbish.

    We are looking at their role now. The evidence for Islamofascist cruelty of the worst kind it is impossible to imagine is there in black and white print, in pictures and even I believe in videos, because these monsters wanted to keep a record of their decapitation of Serbs.

    Yet they turn their backs on this evidence.

    In that sense that is what Kamms´legal threats were all about.

    These people are determined to keep this information hidden from the public.

    I think this is a defeat Ted and it is caused by you, but I think more than by you because you have been under pressure, but by all those people on Israpundit who have not spoken up in support of the Serb people on this, and I refer especially to Bill, Jerry and Joseph in this regard.

    And that is the only way I can see us getting out of this…to recognioze it as a defeat.

  23. I apologise for the mistakes in spelling above, it is actually not my fault as far as I can gather, but to do with this keyboard in this internet shop

  24. This fellow Kmm is in my opinion a real phoney more to be pitied than scorned. I am only at the beginning of my coming to understand the nature of his politics but Icertainly intend to pursue this issue, because in fact Kmm is the road into understanding this phenomenon of influential Jewish leaders in America supporting the Islamofascists in Yugoslavia, and there is just no way w can remain free men and women, and ignore that salient point.

    I would draw attention to Kamm’s concluding remarks to Td and let him know that I for one intend to answer him with interest and I will start right now.

    Kamm wrote

    “I looked recently and in another context at the issue of the Internet and libel law. I remarked that, for my part, I could not conceive of realistic circumstances in which I would threaten legal action against a blogger. But I confess I hadn’t considered at all a circumstance in which I might be depicted as a supporter of Nazism, genocide and ethnic cleansing. (IsraPundit also appears to have form with this sort of thing.) Given the recklessness of IsraPundit’s charges, the repulsiveness of its politics, and the gracelessness of its non-apology, I did consider the possibility of referring this one for legal advice. On grounds of my belief in free speech and of the evident stupidity of the charges, I am very unlikely to take that course even in this case. Nonetheless, in writing to me this afternoon to alert me to his disingenuous and insulting “apology”, Belman hopefully remarked that he trusted it closed the matter – and he should be aware that it does not.

    How kind of you, Mr Belman, in your role as custodian of the fortunes of a great and ancient people, to absolve me of the charge of being an enemy of the Jews. I am, however, certainly an enemy of you.

    However, I have experience of commenting on Harrys Place, a site which it is fair to say is very close to Kamm’s heart, in so far as he has one!

    There I met with as much ignorance (in the Irish meaning of that word) and total censorship of views as is possible to imagine, and given time I will document that.

    As I said I have just started to get to know Kamm. He tries to project an image of clean, so clean in fact that he feels he can throw libel threats about.

    However just 2 nights ago I read on one of his blogs his description of Gerry Healy as being a “RAPIST”

    Healy, who I did not agree with because of his position towards the palestinians and towards arafat, and towards Arab Fascism in general was still a man with a long history in the British labour movement, and also with connection to james Cannon in the American labour movement.

    But it is on this description of healy by this character kamm that I want to focus on.

    Wikipedia I think is fairly accurate on this, and the writer is not a friend of Healy I think:

    “By 1985, concern as to Healy’s financial, political and intelligence links with the Libyan and Iraqi governments had risen within the WRP to the point at which the group imploded. the final straw being revelations from long time associate Aileen Jennings concerning Healy’s alleged (but never proven) abuse of female members of his movement. Healy described the allegations as a smokescreen for those who had become disappointed with revolutionary politics, following the defeat of the miners’ strike. The result was that Jennings disappeared and the WRP collapsed into many tiny, competing, groups.

    Please note in the above “never proven” nor is he called in the above A RAPIST as kamm so cavalierly does.

    I am not sure what the laws of Libel are towards a man who is dead, but what would the living members of Healy’s family think of this.

    But dead or alive I do not think it is a very civil thing to do to go around calling political opponents “RAPISTS”.

    And there is indeed more. I will research this. But is that not bad enough!

  25. Oliver Kamm is a Chomskite, which is to say he is not worth spitting at nor recording in the registry of humanity.

    I am close to being an absolutist on grounds of free speech

    Translation: Like Chomsky he is an equal opportunity terrorist employer.

  26. Don’t be too hard on Oliver Kamm . Take his posts as unintentional satire.

    When Slobo was in charge in Serbia / Yugoslavia , I think that only one book was banned . “The Protocols” of course , being anti-Semitic . The Jews of Kosovo were treated with great dignity and respect .

    Oliver’s yet to talk about this . He’s also stayed strangely silent on the entire Kosovo Jewish community being torched out of their homes , with NATO officers standing by , in 1999 .

    In the early 90’s in meetings Slobo had with Tudjman , the Croats noted the countless times that Slobo would talk about the threat from ISLAMISTS . The Croat delegation called it Slobo’s leitmotif and reported that Slobo called these Islamists “evil

    Oliver’s Balkan hero was Izetbegovic who was supported by Saudi Arabia , Iran and Pakistan . The Serb’s biggest ally , along with Greece , was Israel .

    Oliver certainly chooses his friends well .

    So , be careful with Oliver . Go easy . It’d be like scolding a pinhead .

  27. The more I read and the more I reflect on Nathan’s attack on Oliver Kamm, the more I want to distance myself and condemn it. Nathan has lost it. He has become hysterical in his zeal. His attack was egregious and greatly defammatory. And those that endorsed his attack are equally wrong.

    Comment #12

    Wrong Ted.You have not thought this through very well at all and are being unduly influenced by others very close and dear to you, who ignorantly defend Kamm as a friend of Israel (and presumably,ipso facto,the Jewish people no matter whether they live in Israel or not).

    Ted, it is not enough to use soothing words to protect Jews only in Israel. The key requirement is that one must protect all Jews from Islamofascist mass murderers wherever Jews live in other parts of the world like Kosovo and Bosnia and elsewhere, if one has any kind of consistency, integrity or conscience to speak of as a defender of the Jewish people as a whole, and not just merely those living in Israel alone.

    I strongly object to people like Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman who say they are all 100% for Israel – which is still, for the time being, a sovereign Jewish nation statebut then in the same breath, by default, support Islamofascist mass murderers of Jews, Romanies and Serbs in the Balkans by de facto siding with their terrorist leaders (eg., Alija Izetbegovic, Ramush Haradinaj, Agim Ceku, Hashim Thaci) who go around killing Jews, Romanies and Serbs by beheading, disembowelment and throat slitting and using the pretext of de facto siding with these terrorists because they allegedly “want to prevent genocide and ethnic cleansing”. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

    Such statements could just as easily be used against Israel in the very near future!

    It is a dire warning to us all!!

    These Islamofascist terrorists mentioned above are the ones who engage in this barbaric racist Nazi practice and not the Serbs who are demonstrably and historically anti-fascist and explicitly tolerant, as demonstrated by the hundreds of thousands of Muslims, Jews, Catholic Christians and Protestants who live in Serbia in peace and with full rights as equal citizens – especially during the explicitly tolerant Socialist multi-ethnic Milosevic Federal Republic of Yugoslavia [Serbia & Montenegro] era from February 1992 to October 2000.

    It is Kamm who has become “hysterical” and “lost it” in his “zeal” to attack, libel and defame people all over the world who disagree with him on the true character of Milosevic and Izetbegovic. You say that just because Kamm by default took sides in the war between Izetbegovic’s Bosnian muslims and Karadzic’s Bosnian Serbs by calling for the bombing of Serbia over unproven claims of genocide in Bosnia by Karadzic, that this does not make Kamm a supporter of Izetbegovic?! Please, you are straining the laws of cause and effect here. Of course Kamm, Lantos, Lieberman et al could have forseen what was going to happen if they sided with the KLA and Izetbegovic: the documentation on their terrorist nature was already public for many years, as for example the reports made out by Yossef Bodansky from 1992 onwards as director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare and by his 1995 and 1996 books Offensive in the Balkans and Some Call It Peace: Waiting For War In The Balkans:


    Yossef Bodansky & Vaughn S. Forrest

    Task force on Terrorism & Unconventional Warfare, House Republican Research Committee, September 1, 1992

    Meanwhile, the Muslim youth of Bosnia-Hercegovina were being exposed to Islamist terrorism. The Syrian-Iranian terrorist campaign in Western Europe was conducted in the early-1980s under the cover of the Lebanese Armed Revolutionary Forces (LARF) from a forward base in Yugoslavia that included several Islamic Jihad operatives. Other Palestinian terrorist organizations operating in close cooperation with Syria and Iran were also using Yugoslavia as their own forward base as well as for launching operations by their international partners. Since 1987, Ahmad Jibril’s “foreign division,” optimized to conduct operations in the West, has been the primary operational channel of the international terrorist system controlled by Syria and Iran. The PFLP-GC had networks and offices in Yugoslavia that also housed HizbAllah operatives. “Islamic Jihad’s planners expect to be able to use Yugoslavia as their base in Eastern Europe if only because of the assured sympathy of the Bosnian Muslims,” John Laffin observed in 1988.

    Many of these Islamist terrorists established contacts with the local Muslim communities and began to actively recruit supporters from their ranks. Tehran was very encouraged by the local welcome, for by then, many Bosnians who had undergone extensive terrorist training and Islamist indoctrination in Lebanon and Iran were returning home, where they immediately began organizing and radicalizing the local communities. However, with the growing intra-ethnic tensions in Yugoslavia, many of the Iranian controlled and trained terrorists and their local support networks gradually shifted their attention away from Islamic Revolution to supporting their Muslim brethren in the more local struggle against the Serbs and Croats.

    Meanwhile, Iran has also consolidated a Muslim leadership network supportive of Tehran’s world view. At the center of the Iranian system in Europe is Bosnia-Hercegovina’s President, Alija Izetbegovic, “a fundamentalist Muslim and a member of the Fida’iYan-e Islam organization,” who is committed to the establishment of an Islamic Republic in Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Fida’iyan-e Islam group advocates the struggle for the establishment of Islamic rule wherever Muslims live, and as early as the late-1960s, had already recognized the leadership of Ayatollah Khomeyni and maintained close cooperation with his people.

    Indeed, in 1970, Izetbegovic published his Islamic Declaration stating his world view: “There can be no peace or coexistence between Islamic faith and non-Islamic faith and non-Islamic institutions,” he wrote. “The Islamic movement must and can take power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough, not only to destroy the non- Islamic power, but to build up a new Islamic one.”

    After Khomeyni’s triumph in Tehran, Izetbegovic renewed his call to implement his Islamic Declaration, began organizing an Islamist political movement, and within a few years was thrown in jail for subversion.

    Later, in early-May 1991, Alija Izetbegovic made an official visit to Tehran where he reiterated his long-held views about the future of his country. He was described by Tehran as “a Muslim believer whose party is the strongest political organization in Bosnia-Hercegovina and rallies Yugoslav Muslims” to the Islamic cause. While in Tehran, Izetbegovic emphasized that “Islam has very deep roots in Bosnia- Hercegovina” which affects its ~ policies. Alija Izetbegovic also declared that Bosnia-Hercegovina was “anxious to expand” its diverse and comprehensive ties with Iran. In return, Iran promised massive financial assistance and other help to rejuvenate Bosnia’s local economy.

    In Tehran, members of the Bosnian delegation emphasized the importance of the Islamic factor in generating Iranian investments in Bosnia-Hercegovina: “Muslim intellectuals in Yugoslavia believe that in the event of inevitable privatization of the Bosnia-Hercegovina’s (sic) industry, the capital from the larger neighboring republics of Serbia and Croatia could flow into these industries and outvote Muslims in the republic’s economy. This will lead to their political weakness, they fear, adding that Islamic countries’ investments in the republican economy could change such unfavorable developments.”

    In addition to these economic considerations, special attention was paid to the expansion of religious and cultural ties, including expansion of the training of Yugoslav Muslims in Iranian schools as well as the translation and publication of key Islamic texts, including the basic Shi’ite works, in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Tehran, needless to say, has been enthusiastic concerning Islamic-cultural assistance.

    Later, in pursuit of his goal to establish an Islamic Republic, Izetbegovic also visited Libya in the summer of 1991, seeking financial and political support. “At present,” he explained upon returning to Sarajevo, “I do not ask our brothers in the Muslim states for weapons, only political support. However, if the civil war expanding in our country endangers our Muslim brothers, then many things can happen.”

    Kosovo’s entire Jewish community along with 350,000 Serbs and Romanies were brutally expelled in Kristallnacht style pogroms by the KLA. This is documented fact and is all in the public domain and has been for many years. There is no possible way in the world that Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman could not be aware of all these crimes Have any of them condemned the KLA? No!! Instead not only do we have Lantos and Lieberman on record as calling on the Clinton Administration to arm the KLA but to add insult to injury for Kosovo’s Jews, Romanies and Serbs, we have the infamous public statements of Senator Lieberman to the Washington Post back on April,28, 1999,a full month after the bombing had commenced that:

    “The United States of America and the Kosovo Liberation Army stand for the same human values and the principles . . . Fighting for the KLA is fighting for human rights and American values.” (Washington Post, Apr. 28, 1999).

    It makes one wonder what Senator Lieberman considers American values.

    The Crimes of the KLA: Who Will Pay?

    US Senate Republican Policy Committee: The Kosovo Liberation Army: Does Clinton Policy Support Group with Terror, Drug Ties?

    Crimes of the KLA: Command responsibility of Ramush Haradinaj:Massacre in the village of his birth

    Izetbegovic was a notorious anti-Semitic Israel-hating pro-Palestinian Islamofascist terrorist hell bent on creating an Islamist fundamentalist fascist theocracy and imposing Sharia law on all of Bosnia and expelling or murdering any Jews, Serbs amd Croats (despite his initial alliance with the Ustasha Nazi Franjo Tudjman) who resisted being turned into subservient Dhimmi status. Again this is all in the public domain and has been for many years. There is no chance in hell that Kamm et al, could not have been aware of it.

    What if it was Israel Ted? If an individual called for massive NATO bombing of Israel over the alleged massacre of Palestinians in Jenin in 2002 because they thought a massacre had just occurred, would you also claim that while the bombing of Israel’s civilian infrastructure and the killing of thousands of innocent Israelis by US/NATO Depleted Uranium bombs was a horrible thing to have happened, the individual in question was not to blame since “they were taken in by propaganda”, that by calling for the massive bombing of Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jerusalem, etc, “in order to protect innocent Palestinians from monstrous Israeli genocide” they were not taking sides and not supporting Arafat’s PLO/Fatah against Israeli security forces?!

    If then in a telephone conversation some mutual, very close friends of yours in Canada and the US jumped to their defense by saying that while the destruction of Israel and the killing of thousands of Israelis by US/NATO bombs was regrettable, at least their intent was quite noble since all they were really doing was wanting to allegedly “prevent further massacres like that in Jenin” and “don’t forget they were long time supporters of American and Canadian Jews”, and “he has said many nice things at many different Canadian and US Jewish organizations’ conferences and helped Canadian and American Jews in many practical, charitable ways over many, many years!!”

    I am sure you would want to hang up the phone on such a person and never speak to them again.

    Kamm is a specialist in sophistry who attempts to silence the truth concerning those who expose his egregious lies against Milosevic and his whitewashing of Izetbegovic’s WW2 Nazi past. There is no question that Izetbegovic was a prime recruiter for Heinrich Himmler’s and Hajj Amin al Husseini’s 13th Waffen SS “Handzar” division via Izetbegovic’s membership of the Bosnian “Young Muslims” Islamist organization modelled after the notorious Egyptian “Muslim Brotherhood”, forebears of todays al Qaeda and Wahabbi type Islamist extremists.

    It is also irrefutable that Izetbegovic revived the very same “SS Handzar” Islamofascist division in early 1993.

    Please don’t try and excuse him by saying he could not possibly have known who Izetbegovic was or could not have forseen the consequences of what the KLA would do to the Albanians, Serbs, Jews and Gypsies once NATO intervened on their side as the “KLA’s Airforce”.

    This documentation on Izetbegovic and the Handzar Albanians in Kosovo and Macedonia was all in the public domain in the UK British press as early as December 1993!! Kamm lives in the UK. Where has Kamm been since this report was published well over 13 years ago in the British press? In a cave in Afghanistan or in a coma perhaps?

    The report outlining Izetbegovic’s revival of the infamous murderous WW2 Nazi 13th Waffen SS “Gebirgs division Handschar Kroatische” notorious for its massacres of Jews,Serbs and Gypsies in 1943, was published in the UK Daily Telegraph newspaper, under the headline: “Albanians and Afghans fight for the heirs to Bosnia’s SS past”

    Here is an excerpt:

    Last summer Muslim and Croat leaders in Fojnica asked the WN to declare it a “zone of peace”. Since then war has ravaged the town, bringing murder, mayhem and exile to at least half its original population of 12,000. Different, and alien, forces are now in charge — some of the toughest in the Bosnian Muslim army.

    These are the men of the Handzar division. “We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline,” a Handzar told one UN officer.

    Up to 6000-strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as the heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler.

    According to UN officers, surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo-Croatian. “Many of them are [Muslim] Albanian, whether from Kosovo (the Serb province where Albanians are the majority) or from Albania itself.”

    They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say UN sources. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could mean the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania, thence to the Albanians of Macedonia.

    Pakistani fundamentalists are known to have had a strong hand in providing arms and a small weapons industry for the Bosnian Muslims.

    Hardline elements of the Bosnian army, like the Handzar, appear to have the backing of an increasingly extreme leadership in Sarajevo, represented by Mr Ejup Ganic, Foreign Minister, Mr Haris Silajdzic, Prime Minister, and Mr Enver Hadjihasanovic, the new army chief.

    I can send you reams and reams of documentation supporting the above from other sources. It is utterly impossible for Kamm to have been unaware of this information for the last 13 plus years unless he was in a coma or living in a cave in Afghanistan.

    I did not libel or “defame” Kamm in any way since the proper definition of a “libel” is to publish a public statement that is false . What exactly did I write that Kamm claims was false? What specifically, pray tell did I say that was untrue? That Kamm by default supported Izetbegovic who was a known genocidal mass murderer? There is no question Kamm supported Izetbegovic since he sided with the Izetbegovic faction by default when he called for the bombing of Serbia for the now utterly discredited claims of “aggression” and “genocide against Bosnia” “perpetrated by Karadzic,Mladic and Milosevic”. Outrageous claims which have been proven false umpteen times here on Israpundit.

    Kamm has not once been able to substantiate any of his outlandish, outrageous claims against Milosevic, but yet keeps deafeningly silent when confronted with hard documented evidence of Izetbegovic’s monstrous crimes of genocide against the Serbs [documented here on Israpundit umpteen times] or simply whitewashes it all by using sophisticated casuistry and sophistry. Not only that, but Kamm viciously attacks,slanders and publicly libels anyone who disagrees with his ridiculous portrayal of Milosevic as a “Stalinist/Fascist/Nazi supporter of genocide and ethnic cleansing” (See Neil Clark’s blog for proof of this)

    Kamm brushes Izetbegovic’s massive crimes against Serbian civilians aside, sweeps them under the carpet so to speak, by being deafeningly silent on the documented crimes perpetrated by Izetbegovic and his Islamist Nazi warlord Naser Oric, because acknowledging that Izetbegovic was a heinous Nazi mass murderer would mean acknowledging that the so called “neo-cons” in the CFR and their Globalist pro-Islamist agenda vis-a-vis Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia would be exposed.

    Like I wrote earlier:

    I strongly object to people like Kamm, Lantos and Lieberman who say they are all 100% for Israel – which is still, for the time being, a sovereign Jewish nation statebut then in the same breath, by default, support Islamofascist mass murderers of Jews, Romanies and Serbs in the Balkans by de facto siding with their terrorist leaders (eg., Alija Izetbegovic, Ramush Haradinaj, Agim Ceku, Hashim Thaci) who go around killing Jews, Romanies and Serbs by beheading, disembowelment and throat slitting and using the pretext of de facto siding with these terrorists because they allegedly “want to prevent genocide and ethnic cleansing”. It would be funny if it wasn’t so tragic.

    Such statements could just as easily be used against Israel in the very near future!

    It is a dire warning to us all!!

    Islam, the Devil’s Cauldron Exploding the myths of Islam
    By Dr William Whiteley

    “Kill a third, deport a third, convert a third” of Yugoslavia’s Serbs, Jews and Roma in wartime Bosnia and Croatia (The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Vladimir Dedijer, Anriman-Verlag, Freiburg, Germany, 1988).

    The most senior Muslim cleric to be involved in the Holocaust/Porajmos was Hajj Amin al-Husseini. According to the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust (Edition 1990, Volume 2, Pages 706 and 707) made a substantial contribution to the Axis war effort by organizing (“in record time”) recruitment to Muslim SS units in Croatia that would be involved in some of the worse atrocities of the Second World War.

    It is estimated that some 20,000 Muslims fought in the Hanjar (Sword) SS Division, which fought against Yugoslav partisans led by General Tito, and carried out police and security details in fascist Hungary.

    The Nazi’s recruited two SS divisions from Yugoslavia’s Muslim population, the infamous Bosnian 13th Waffen Hanjar (or Handschar) SS division, and the Albanian Skanderbeg 21st Waffen SS division.

    SS conscription in Yugoslavia during the war produced 42,000 Waffen SS and police troops.

    The Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust states They participated in the massacre of civilians, in Bosnia and volunteered to join in the hunt for Jews in Croatia The Germans made a point of publicizing the fact that Husseini had flown from Berlin to Sarajevo for the sole purpose of giving his blessing to the Muslim army and inspecting its arms and training exercises.

    President of Bosnia “recruited” for the SS Handschar Division Alija Izetbegovic Have you ever wondered why Bosnia never officially accused Croatia of aggression for attacking it as it has done with Yugoslavia?

    What do Bosnian Moslem’s people say about this: “Izetbegovic was Pavelic’s soldier in last war!” (Again blaming some body else for the actions of Islam) According to one article on the web, Ethnic Conflicts in Civil War in Bosnia, Alija Izetbegovic, the current President of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is the person who connects the present and the World War II.

    During the World War II, he was also linked to the SS Handschar Division. He joined the organization “Young Muslims” in Sarajevo on March 5, 1943, and is alleged to have engaged as a member of the organization in recruiting young Muslims for Handschar Division in collaboration with German intelligence services (ABWER and GESTAPO).

    Thus, in the spring of 1943, as leader of the Muslim youth in Sarajevo, he welcomed the Nazi collaborator Amin-el Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, to Sarajevo.

    In 1946, however, he was sentenced by the Yugoslav Supreme Military Court to three years of imprisonment and two years of deprivation of civil rights, because of his fascist activities.

    You do not need more evidence than this to show the hatred that Islam has for the Christians and Jews.

    Izetbegovic’s WW2 Nazi SS Handzar SS auxiliary recruiting background via the Islamist “Young Muslims” pro-Nazi organization in Bosnia from early 1943 onwards exposed by anti-fascist researcher Dave Emory in his weekly WFMU Radio show:

    “The Life and Times of Hasan Cengic”

    “After George Bush stated that the United States was involved in a battle against Islamic fascists, a rhetorical firestorm erupted, with people in the U.S. and abroad decrying Bush’s statement. There is an old expression—“even a broken clock is right twice a day.” George W. Bush—a broken clock if every there was one—happened to be correct this time. Illustrating the reality of Islamic fascism, as well as its remarkable continuity over the years, are the life and times of Hasan Cengic. A veteran of the 13th Waffen SS Division during World War II, Cengic worked with Iran, Saudi Arabia and with elements of the U.S. national security establishment during the Balkans wars of the 1990’s. Becoming the deputy defense minister of the newly created Bosnian state, Cengic oversaw the re-creation of the 13th Waffen SS Division in the 1990’s! The newly created Handzhar Division also appears to have played a role in the spreading of the Balkans conflict into Kosovo, where Islamist combatants also recapitulated the fascist fighting formations of World War II.

    Program Highlights Include: Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic’s work on behalf of the Handzhar Division of the World War II era—“Handzhar I”; Izetbegovic’s relationship with Osama bin Laden during the Balkans wars of the 1990’s; Cengic’s relationship with the Iranian fundamentalists while executing his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with the Saudi Islamic fundamentalists during his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with Russian weapons dealer [and U.S. intelligence asset] Viktor Bout during his [Cengic’s] role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; Cengic’s relationship with elements of U.S. intelligence during his role as the primary weapons procurer for the Bosnians; the concrete assistance of a front organization created by Osama bin Laden to the establishment of Hasan Cengic as a key player in Bosnia; the role in the newly-recreated Handzhar Division of ethnic Albanian Muslims, as well as Arab and Pakistani veterans of the Afghan war; the role of “Handzhar II” in force-projection into Kosovo and Macedonia in the 1990’s.

    1. Beginning the overview on the life and times of Hasan Cengic, the broadcast begins with review of the creation and operation of the 13th Waffen SS Division (“Hanjar” or “Handzhar”), one of three Muslim Waffen SS divisions recruited for the Nazis by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Hasan Cengic was a member of the original 13th Waffen SS Division. “ . . . He [the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem] called upon all Muslims to ‘kill the Jews wherever you see them.’ In Tehran’s marketplace, it was common to see placards that declared, ‘In heaven, Allah is your master. On Earth, it is Adolf Hitler.’ When the mufti raised three divisions of Islamic Waffen SS to undertake cruel operations in Bosnia, among the 30,000 killers were some volunteer contingents from Iran. Iranian Nazis, along with the other Muslim Waffen SS, operated under the direct supervision of Heinrich Himmler and were responsible for barbarous actions against Jews and others in Bosnia. Recruitment for the murderous ‘Handschar Divisions’ was done openly in Iran. Iran and its leaders were not only aware of the Holocaust, they played both sides. The country offered overland escape routes for refugee Jews fleeing Nazi persecution to Israel — and later fleeing postwar Iraqi fascist persecution — but only in exchange for extortionate passage fees.” (“Denial of Holocaust Nothing New in Iran Ties to Hitler Led to Plots Against British and Jews” by Edwin Black; San Francisco Chronicle; 1/8/2006; accessed at:

    2. Updating information from FTR#’s 330, 400, 414, the broadcast excerpts the obituary of former Bosnian president Alija Izetbegovic, highlighting his association with the SS Handzhar Division in World War II, and the support he received from Osama bin Laden. “ . . .During World War II, when Bosnia became part of the puppet-Nazi state of the Croatian Ustashe, Mr. Izetbegovic joined the Young Muslims, a group torn between siding with the German-sponsored Handzar divisions organized by the German SS or with the Yugoslav communist partisans led by Josip Broz Tito. Mr. Izetbegovic supported the Handzars. After Tito’s Communist government was established in 1946, a military court sentenced Mr. Izetbegovic to three years in prison for his wartime activities. . . .” (“Alija Izetbegovic, Muslim Who Led Bosnia, Dies at 78” by David Binder; The New York Times; 10/20/2003; p. 2.)

    3.“ . . . Osama bin Laden visited him [Izetbegovic] in Sarajevo in 1993 and sponsored some fighters from Arabic countries to fight on the Muslims’ side in Bosnia, according to a report in the German magazine Der Spiegel. . .” (Idem.)

    4. Supplementing previous discussion of the fascist heritage of the government of Alija Izetbegovic (the first president of Bosnia), the broadcast sets forth the background of the first Deputy Defense Minister of Bosnia-Herzogovina. Like Izetbegovic himself, Hasan Cengic was a veteran of the operations of the 13th Waffen SS Division—the Handzar Division. (For more about the subject of the Balkans wars and the reconstitution of Islamic fascism in the Balkans, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 154, 293, and the other broadcasts noted in the descriptions for them. For more about Bosnia and Al Qaeda, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 330, 400, 432. For more about the Balkan SS formations, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 168, 330, 400, 414, 416) “Indicative of Sarajevo’s intentions and priorities is the appointment in January 1996 of Hasan Cengic to the position of Deputy Defense Minister: the man in charge of the implementation of the reorganization. A veteran of the SS Handzar Division during World War II, Cengic is a close personal friend and confidant of Alija Izetbegovic, especially since the time they served together in Yugoslav President Tito’s prison. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] .” (Some Call It Peace: Waiting for War in the Balkans; Yossef Bodansky; Copyright 1996 [SC] by Yossef Bodansky; Published by International Media Corporation Ltd.; ISBN 0-9520070-5-3; p. 39; Note: Although this book has a distinct ideological bias—Clinton bashing—its intelligence data on Bosnian military formations is very credible.)

    5.Bridging the gap between Sunni and Shiite Islamic fascism, Cengic has operated on behalf of the Iranian fundamentalists. “It is always very hard to focus on broad pictures when so many fires are in need of being put out. But it is imperative to keep in mind in the ongoing conflict Iran’s long-standing ties not only to Hezbollah, but to Islamists in Bosnia, a relationship that spans more than a decade. There is concern among Bosnian contacts that, if Iran feels things are going badly in Lebanon and that the war needs another front, it would take little to ignite Bosnia. It would not be hard to do and the international presence in Bosnia is greatly reduced. So is the intelligence capacity developed in the late 1990s. Several key intelligence-gathering units have been dissolved in Bosnia in the past six months, meaning the West is more blind there than any time since the mid-1990s.” (“While Lebanon Boils, Watch Bosnia” by Douglas Farah; 7/19/2006;

    6. “To date Iranian intelligence maintains a huge apparatus in Bosnia and several dozen, if not hundreds, of trainers with the elite units of the Bosnian military. In addition, several hundred mujahadeen who fought in Afghanistan and then Bosnia remain scattered around Bosnia, many of them still with the elite Bosnia units or in the intelligence apparatus. It is worth remembering this heavy Iranian involvement in the Bosnian conflict because it was in Bosnia that al Qaeda developed its template for future operations. One of the most interesting things is that, while the mujahadeen and Bosnian Muslims were supported by Saudi Arabia and many others, much of the aid flowed through Iran, despite the Shi’ite-Sunni divide. The bridge was Hasan Cengic, an Iranian intelligence agent and later Bosnia’s deputy defense minister who has been designated by the U.S. Treasury Department. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] Cengic did some of his earliest weapons deals through Viktor Bout, who flew in hundreds of tons of weapons for the Bosnian Muslims in 1992. He later ‘sold’ Cengic at least one aircraft, and perhaps more.” (Idem.)

    7. More about Cengic’s role as the bridge between Shiia and Sunni Islamic fascists: “Cengic, although working on behalf of Iran, coordinated the Saudi’s multi-hundred million dollar financial support for the Bosnian Muslims as well. There are concrete examples of this. During one period in the late 1990s, Wa’el Julaidan, now designated by both the U.S. and Saudi Arabia as a terrorist financier, received $8 millon from a Cengic-controlled account of the Third World Relief Agency. Julaidan later repaid the money to the TWRA account in a series of smaller payments. Given Iran’s ongoing desire to push a pan-Islamist agenda and the advantages it gains from ongoing turmoil-not only in terms of oil revenues, but in terms of being able to build alliances, move agents and set a pan-Islamist agenda-its leaders could well feel the need to use another arrow from its quiver. But it could be that no one is watching Bosnia as it prepares to burn.” (Idem.)

    8. Continuing the tracking of Hasan Cengic’s career from the Hanjar division of World War II through the Islamic terrorism of the contemporary period, the program notes that Cengic is now a member of the Bosnian parliament, having moved from his position as Deputy Defense Minister. “There is one intriguing detail in the emerging picture of the London bombings that are almost entirely overlooked: The possibility that the high-level explosives came from the Balkans. For several months, Western intelligence officials in Bosnia have been warning their counterparts that high-level plastic explosives have gone missing and were possibly in terrorist hands. One official told me a few months ago that if there were an attack in Europe, it would be very likely the materiel would have been obtained in Bosnia. The big question now is why no one paid attention to the warnings. There remains a small, dedicated group gathering intelligence on these types of operation, but their work is given a low priority and the entire intelligence-gathering structure, providing what little reliable information available on radical Islamic movements and leaders in Bosnia, is slated to disappear at the end of the year.” (“London and the Possible Bosnia Connection” by Andrew Cochran; 7/14/2005;

    9. Note that Cengic was the beneficiary of a “reluctant” U.S. intelligence community in his work arming the Bosnia Islamists. It has long been Mr. Emory’s contention that the U.S. and Britain applied the “Afghan paradigm” in the Balkans. The Muslim Brotherhood and its Al Qaeda offshoot [in Mr. Emory’s opinion] were employed against the Serbian communists, as they had been against the Soviet occupation forces in Afghanistan. The fact that the Bosnian operation was conducted on Bill Clinton’s watch may well account for the reluctance of the Democrats to press the political advantage that they stood to gain from highlighting the GOP’s hard links with the Muslim Brotherhood/Bank al Taqwa/Al Qaeda link exemplified by the Grover Norquist/Karl Rove connection to the Islamic Institute. (For more about this link, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 454, 515.) Note that Cengic worked with Viktor Bout, a wealthy and seemingly ubiquitous Russian arms dealer who also worked hand-in-glove with U.S. in the Balkans and, more recently, in Iraq. “While Western forces continue to scale back their activities in the Balkans and slash their intelligence-gathering capabilities there in the mistaken belief that things are returning to normal, radical Islamists are steadily preparing for renewed activity and are already engaged in acts of violence. The gun that killed Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gough came from the Bosnia. The huge, unsecured stockpiles of weapons and explosives make obtaining these items easy. And there are still militant Islamists in positions of power. The foremost is Hasan Cengic, now in the Bosnia parliament, who was a former deputy defense minister in charge of arming Bosnian Muslims during the Bosnian war. He set up, with the help of a very reluctant U.S. intelligence community, a weapons pipeline that ran primarily through Iran. He was also a director of the Third World Relief Agency, (TWRA), the fake Islamic charity that funneled hundreds of millions of dollars to radical Islamists during that conflict. Much of the money remains unaccounted for. TWRA officially went out of business in 1996, but more than $300 million in assets were not accounted for. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.] It is interesting to note that Viktor Bout, happily flying for the U.S. military and KBR in Iraq and Afghanistan, dealt with Cengic often and provided him with at least one aircraft during the Bosnia war.” (Idem.)

    10. “It is often forgotten that Bosnia played an extemely significant role in the formation of al Qaeda, and that the infrastructure established during that war were never erradicated. Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups used Bosnia as a training ground, a financial center, a weapons storage site and a money-laundering center. Bosnia is still an active center for all of those activities. We ignore the obvious signs of danger at our own expense. Maybe the supply of high-grade explosives from the region will finally focus the necessary attention on Bosnia as an unfinished enterprise.” (Idem.)

    11. More about the relationship between Cengic, Viktor Bout and U.S. national security elements: “It seems as though the fingerprints of Viktor Bout, arms trafficker extraordinaire, can be found in most places that have had trouble in recent years. The most recent intelligence reports I received come from Bosnia, and show Bout has been an active partner of Mr. Hasan Cengic, the head of radical Islam in Bosnia and key organized crime figure. Interesting how Bout shows up in numerous Muslim-related conflicts, often where U.S. policy makers are having a particularly difficult time in getting weapons to one side or the other.” (“Viktor Bout’s Excellent Bosnian Adventure” by Douglas Farah; 4/12/2005;

    12. “The paper trail left by Bout in Bosnia makes it hard to discern exactly what he was up to there, but in March 2001 he was leasing two Illyushin Il-72s from BIO Air Services, and had them based in Sarjah, UAE. Cengic, on the U.S. Treasury Department’s list of banned individuals and chief arms provider to the Bosnia Muslims during the Bosnia conflict (where al Qaeda and other radical elements, led by Cengic, took control of the lucrative arms trade), controls BIO Air. The European intelligence report says that BIO Air leased two of its aircraft to Bout after illegally importing them into Bosnia in the first place. Before the aircraft were owned by BIO Air they belonged to Atlas Iran. Cengic spent much of the Bosnia war in Iran and worked as an Iranian intelligence agent. . . .” (Idem.)

    13. Cengic has been the beneficiary of support from the CIRKL, and apparent Al Qaeda front organization founded by Sheik Abdel Rahman [convicted in connection with the first attack on the World Trade Center] and Osama bin Laden. “ . . . According to this recent article Ceric is linked to the CIRKL, a funding operation ‘which was in charge of all aid donated to Bosniak Muslims by Islamic countries’ The CIRKL was started by Sheik Abdel Rahman and Osama Bin Laden. Information collected by Austrian and German intelligence agents and published in August 2004 in Banjaluka`s Patriot paper claims that Islamic terrorists, including Osama bin Laden and Sheik Rahman, organized CIRKL, … The group was set up as the only link between the Bosnian Muslim political leadership of the time and its wealthy Islamic benefactors. . . . Instead of the Bosniak government, it was the illegal CIRKL that was in control of all aid donated to the Bosniak nation by Islamic countries. The Bosniak nation is 100 percent financially dependent on the CIRKL. The CIRKL is the absolute master of almost all hard currency,’ according to the intelligence document, which dates back to Nov. 6, 1995, and is labeled top secret. The document also list the key people in the CIRKL in charge of Bosnia as Dr. Fatih al Hassanein, Hasan Cengic, [Italics are Mr. Emory’s] Salim Sabic, Muhamed Catic, Mustafa Ceric, Husein Zivalj, and Senad Sahinpasic…’” (Excerpt from article on Mufti Mustafa Ceric, Grand Mufti of Bosnia;

    14. Under Izetbegovic and Cengic, the Handzar Division was recreated! With the recreation of the Handzar Division in the 1990’s, the life and times of Hasan Cengic arrived at a remarkable point of circuitous continuity—perhaps even closure. “ . . .These are the men of the Handzar division. ‘We do everything with the knife, and we always fight on the frontline.’ A Handzar told one U.N. officer. Up to 6,000 strong, the Handzar division glories in a fascist culture. They see themselves as their heirs of the SS Handzar division, formed by Bosnian Muslims in 1943 to fight for the Nazis. Their spiritual model was Mohammed Amin al-Hussein, the grand Mufti of Jerusalem who sided with Hitler. According to U.N. officers, surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo Croation ‘Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo (the Serb province where Albanians are the majority) or from Albania itself.’” (“Albanians and Afghans fight for the heirs to Bosnia’s SS Past” by Robert Fox; Daily Telegraph; 12/29/1993.)

    15. Again, as we reflect on the Balkans war and the events of 9/11, one of the scenarios to be seriously considered is the possibility that elements of US intelligence utilized the “Arab Afghans” (including Al Qaeda) in the Balkans, as they had against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Indeed the geopolitics first practiced by the Third Reich in the “Earth Island” appears to have served as something of a model for what took place in the latter part of the Cold War. America’s erstwhile Islamist and Islamofascist allies later turned against the United States with a vengeance. “They are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan, say U.N. sources. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could mean the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania. Thence to the Albanians of Macedonia. Pakistani fundamentalists are known to have had a strong hand in providing arms and a small weapons industry for the Bosnian Muslims.” (Idem.)

    16. The broadcast presents more about the recreation of the Handzar Division under Izetbegovic and Cengic. Note that the division was trained and led by Afghan and Pakistani veterans. The milieux of Al Qaeda and “Handzar II”—the 1990’s Handzar–overlap. “Another major Islamist force remained: the Handzar Division, named after the 13th SS Handzar Division which served under the German flag in World War II. The current Handzar Division is Sarajevo’s Praetorian Guards, and is comprised of a 2,500 to 3,000 elite force deployed in Sarajevo and a 6,000 to 7,500 strong back-up force at a major training base around Fojnica, but is moved around to augment major fighting fronts. The majority of the troops of the Handzar Division come from the region’s non-Bosnian Muslim minorities, primarily Albanians, and are led by veteran Pakistani and Afghan experts.” (Some Call It Peace: Waiting for War in the Balkans; p. 15.)

    17. Relating more about “Handzar II,” the program notes that the foot soldiers of the unit were largely of Albanian extraction and that they were engaged in force projection into Kosovo and Macedonia. Another area of Islamist activism was Kosovo, with the KLA being the beneficiary of Islamist activity. Many of the combatants in the KLA were the sons and grandsons of members of the 21st Waffen SS or Skanderbeg division. With the KLA/Skanderbeg relationship and with the Handzhar’s force projection into Kosovo and Macedonia, we see a further degree of continuity between the Islamic fascism of the World War II period and the Islamic fascism of today. The “Life and Times of Hasan Cengic” embody this continuity! (For more about Islamism and Kosovo, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 351, 357, 359, 381. For more about the 21st Waffen SS division, see—among other programs—FTR#’s 161, 330, 414.) “In mid-1993 Sarajevo revived the Handzar Division is the Praetorian Guard for President Alija Izetbegovic and other senior leaders in Sarajevo. The Handzar Division is comprised of a 2,500 to 3,000 elite force deployed in Sarajevo and a 6,000 to 7,500 strong back-up force in Fojnica.” (Ibid.; p. 158.)

    18. “Significantly, the majority of the troops of the Handzar Division are not Bosnian Muslims. Instead, they come from the region’s other Muslim minorities, primarily Albanians, and are led by veteran Pakistani and Afghan experts. ‘Surprisingly few of those in charge of the Handzars in Fojnica seem to speak good Serbo-Croatian. Many of them are Albanian, whether from Kosovo or from Albania itself,’ explained UN officers in Fojnica. ‘The Handzars are trained and led by veterans from Afghanistan and Pakistan. The strong presence of native Albanians is an ominous sign. It could be that the seeds of war are spreading south via Kosovo and into Albania, thence to the Albanians of Macedonia.’ These observations, made in late 1993, proved correct. By 1995, the Handzar Division had been transformed into a zealot and combat proven special forces. In many cases, particularly in the surge into western Bosnia-Herzogovina in the Summer-Fall of 1995, they operated in close cooperation with the mujahedin units. The deployment of Albanian veterans and support mujahedin cadres to Albania began in the Fall of 1995.” (Ibid.; pp. 158-159.)

  28. There should be no negotiations even after Fatah, Hamas, and the rest of the murderers are crushed. Readers of this blog are familiar with many of the reasons: the land is legally Israel’s, it is required for strategic depth, the Judea Mountains are needed for defense, etc. Besides, the Arab children living under Abbas and his goons must be saved from the jihadist education being forced down their throats.

    In addition, the events of the past fourteen years have illustrated only too well what results from the lie of a “Palestinian” people. If they had actually fulfilled treaty obligations and such, that would have been one thing and we would perhaps have been able to allow them autonomy, but as it is they have shown what damage that lie is capable of causing, and to allow that untruth to fester would be mortally dangerous.

    It therefore is imperative that in the final (Israeli-imposed) settlement, the myth of an Arab “Palestinian” people and an Arab country of “Palestine” be contradicted and permanently destroyed.

  29. The world fears the big cult of Islam and so we don’t insist on normal human behavior from their religious and political leaders. We find excuses for them that must make them laugh out loud with amazement. The policy of appeasement and rewarding bad acts with power and land is alive and well with regard to our dysfunctional relationship. Islam’s first choice in the modern age is terrorism (learned from repeated successes by Arafat and company and the positive feedback the Pals get from us whenever it is used) and it has been the biggest winning card for them since they occupied Europe. Russia loves to support terrorism in the ME because that is their way to rebalance the new world order. Russia benefits whenever one of their former satellites becomes a base for terrorism, even Islamic terrorism. We also allow Islam to rewrite history and to victimize the dead and the living at the same time. The media helps to create new realities and myths that ignore history and sidestep the truth.

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