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Menu There is no diplomatic solutionIsrael should declare three nos;
no to nuclear Iran, no to two-state solution, no to bi-national state
no to nuclear Iran, no to two-state solution, no to bi-national state
@Ted, your view of what is realistic might actually not have anything to with the actual world. I told you what I thought. You do not think it is realistic fine.
Sorry, I was not trying to insult you as I said in the actual comment. Please read it and see my clarification. It is a true concern.
I quote myself about an endgame to conflict would possibly look like. This is my view not Putin’s or his spokesmen, nor Zelensky’s to date.
“A wise leader is one who get the sides to agree to a cease-fire along certain lines (such as a future American POTUS Trump or DeSantis). That is the starting point. If the Russian’s do push Putin aside and a leader takes his place who wants to again get into the good graces of Europe and the USA, a peace will be possible. The Russian’s will have to negotiate withdrawing from territory captured. Whether this all or some of the territory will be up to the negotiators.
A wise strong leader in the west will coax Ukraine into some territorial compromise for their own benefit to stop the endless war.”
@Bear
I wrote “What is your end game”
You inserted the word “Good”.
I didn’t ask you that. I expected a realistic answer.
Its you who can’t remember. And you go on to insult me.
I expected better from you.
Michael S xooxoxooxoox
@Bear
I want no such thing. I have no sacred cows when considering Israel’s security, not the US, and not Russia. I do however recognize the fact that Russia has been acting in its own self interest, first due to economic relief in trading with Iran and second in seeking military assistance from Iran, all due to the actions of the US. You suggest that we as Jews should not admit this truth regarding Russia, labeling us as Russian apologists, when in fact Russia has been acting under US economic and military coercion to do so. So, as Ted once noted and I believe you objected, I say that it is the US which is the real bad guy. It seems that your perspective on this topic rotates around Putin. This is not so for myself. But I do recognize that it has been more than just Obama and Biden in the US which have made Iran a great threat to Israel. In fact, while the US has forced Israel into accepting dangerous peace initiatives with the Pals over the past decades, the US has simultaneously acted to eliminate all of the elements of opposition to Iran in the region. This has been a bipartisan action, reversed only under Trump, and re-reversed since his leaving office. As I noted, I am concerned by Russia’s reactions to US coercions, but I also recognize that the US has been the greater threat with regards to Making Iran Great Again, not Russia.
@Ted I quote you here,
So this is what you asked and you can not remember for a short while even what you wrote nor understand what I wrote. I suggest you re-read what I wrote because I believe you did not digest or understand it.
Either you just like arguing or your age just like Biden’s has now started having cognitive impairment. I am not joking about that or trying to be cruel. It actually would explain why some of things you repeatedly write such as your illogical and irrational belief in Mudar Zahran. If that is the case it makes zero sense to debate with you.
Ted, Peloni and Sebastien,
Peloni grouped Honeydew and me in with Bear, with regard to our understanding of the Ukraine situation. This is a reasonable representation: As for me, I agree with everything Bear has been saying — except, perhaps, about Putin’s motives. I don’t know Putin’s motives, nor much care about them: I am interested in what he’s been DOING, namely, bullying and annexing one neighbor after another.
Ted, you mentioned the possibility of a path to peace. As things stand now, there doesn’t seem to be one, other than a decisive military victory, one way or the other. It’s in Putin’s interest in prolonging the war, even while pretending to want to end it. If he DOES secure peace with Ukraine (which can only come by withdrawing from his years of conquests there), he faces charges of genocide before the ICC, as well as full-blown civil war in Russia.
Biden is certainly not a man of peace. The war has been useful to him, in distracting Americans from weightier matters such as his treasonous collusion with the CCP, and massive money-laundering and other criminal activities. While not really seeking peace, he IS probably interested in a temporary cease-fire in the run-up to the 2024 election.
Both leaders, Biden and Putin, along with their confederates, are up to no good. The best advice I can offer, is to try not to get too involved — easy to say, but hard to do.
@Bear.
I did not ask what a good end game looks like. I asked for a realistic solution.
Are you saying that if Russia insists on keeping their gains, peace is not possible? In other words, that until Russia withdraws, there will be no peace.
If so, I think withdrawal is a pipe dream.
On the other hand, given your belief that Russia plans to reconstitute the USSR, then for Russia to give up such plans would be a great gain for the west and letting Russia keep what they currently occupy, would be a small price to pay for the end of the conflict.
@Peloni I am not sticking up for the fools in the White House and their ridiculous attempts to placate Iran. This does not mean Russia arming Iran with all sorts of weapons is some sort of good regime in my mind and not dangerous to Israel. You want to let Russia off the hook for its dangerous actions to Israel because the Bidens and Obama’s are doing stupid dangerous things that is your mindset and not mine.
The next election in the USA hopefully will find a Republican in the White House who understands the dangerous of Iran and acts upon it.
Ted, I appreciate one thing you wrote what would a good end game look like. If there was a wise strong leader in the West or the USA it would find a way to end the conflict. The conflict appears to be stalemated at this point in time. This is costing lots of lives and money.
Truth is as we all know Biden is an old incompetent fool who makes everything worse and not better. The west throwing endless money in the support of Ukraine does not appear to be leading to victory. Then Russia’s military campaign has evolved into let us see how many Ukrainian Civilians we can kill.
A wise leader is one who get the sides to agree to a cease-fire along certain lines. That is the starting point. If the Russian’s do push Putin aside and a leader takes his place who wants to again get into the good graces of Europe and the USA, a peace will be possible. The Russian’s will have to negotiate withdrawing from territory captured. Whether this all or some of the territory will be up to the negotiators.
A wise strong leader in the west will coax Ukraine into some territorial compromise for their own benefit to stop the endless war.
The neocons have crafted a narrative to the effect that since Putin laments that the Soviet Union was split up, that the Russian people have been trapped in a dozen separate countries, and that the economic policy forced on Russia by the West cost the fortunes and lives of untold numbers of Russians, he is secretly rebuilding the Soviet Union beginning with Ukraine. And yet, when provoked by the US overthrow of neighboring Ukraine, Putin insisted that the Dombas remain part of Ukraine. He negotiated not once but multiple versions of arrangements with the West, and they all of them held the same outcome for Dombas and the ethnic Russians who were being slaughtered there – to remain within Ukraine in some fashion.
The Geneva Declaration of Principles
Minsk I
Minsk II
The Morel Plan
The Sajdik Initiative
The Steinmeier Formula
The Clusters Approach
All of these were negotiated settlements or processes by which to solve the crisis in Ukraine, all of them were negotiated with the full cooperation of Russia, and all of them left the Dombas in Ukraine. So if Putin is so set upon the neocon envisaged plot to rebuild the Soviet Union, why would Putin spend a decade trying to keep a vital portion of the Soviet Union outside of its reach. I believe this is a fair question and I challenge anyone who has actually thought thru their Putin-Bad-Man rhetoric to explain why it is that Putin-Bad-Man consistently negotiated to undermine what it is the neocons claim that Putin-Bad-Man actually wants.
@Bear
Thanks for elucidating. You believe that Russia was the aggressor because Putin lamented the fall of the USSR. Whereas we believe that America is at fault because it wanted to dethrone Putin and achieve a regime change in Russia.
Unfortunately you equate his lament with the fall of the USSR with an alleged determination to reconstitute it. The latter does not follow the former. You mention Georgia but ignore Serbia.
I thought that Putin’s demands for the last 8 years or so, were reasonable. He didn’t want NATO on his flank. Similarly and for the same reason I thought Kennedy was right to demand that Khrushchev retreat from Cuba in the sixties.
Do you accept that parallel?
Secondly what is your end game? Should the West accept a ceasefire and leave Putin with his “ill-gotten” gains? If not what is your alternative? Russia is not going to retreat. What’s to be gained by continuing the war?
In other words, let’s not fight about who is to blame. What do you want the US to do? What are their realistic options?
@Bear
While I was responding to your none response, I see you offered an alternate jab instead.
Let us look at the issue of Iran first and foremost. Russia is indeed aiding Iran’s nuclear program because it is being granted a waiver by the US to do so. In fact, this was true going back to when Russia sold the nuclear reactors to Iran. So if Russia is to be considered so bad because they are aiding our existential enemy Iran, how would you characterize the fact that the only point of business which Russia is allowed to conduct by the US using its monetary systems is to aid Iran’s nuclear program? Furthermore, the US continues to provide cover for Iran as it has emerged to be within, well I have lost count how many minutes to midnight we stand now, but in any event, the US is directly responsible for having provided Iran its current nuclear program and has simultaneously over the years employed its economic coercion to have the Russians play a role in it as well.
So, yes, I agree that we should be concerned about the Russian-Iranian relationship, but I would suggest that the real culprit in actually maturing that relationship has been the US, likely in support of their own well established relationship with the Iranians. In fact, Russia provides Iran what Iran pays for, just as Iran provides Russia what it pays for. Yet, it was the American govt which shipped pallets of dollars to Iran, and has been freeing up sanctioned assets around the world for Iran, from South Korea most recently, from which to allow Iran to make use. In fact, the manipulation of the Israeli gas fields by the callow Bennett govt as a gift to Hezbollah was yet another move by the US to provide aid and comfort to Iran.
Russia has in no way done anything so dangerous or damaging as the US programs of providing Iran free cash and energy assets from which to expand their rise to prominence in the region. Consequently, I am more concerned about the US connection to Iran than Russia, but Russia is not beyond my concern either, just less so than that of the US.
Additionally, Russia’s weapons exchange with Iran is a direct consequence of Russia being pushed into this war with NATO – I know you don’t want a debate, so don’t, but it doesn’t change the facts. If the US had negotiated in with Russia or allowed Ukraine to complete the negotiations at Istanbul, there would be no Russian-Iranian arms relationship.
@Bear
And yet you seem unwilling to explain what you see so easily. Nonetheless, perhaps one of your supporters might have the means or interest to explain what you have successfully evaded here.
Full Article at https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-rues-soviet-collapse-demise-historical-russia-2021-12-12/
Putin apologists and defenders will not accept the above and will have some elaborate denial (such as mistranslated, as if they heard the original Russian and understood it). One time minor remark I believe was part of the the previous dismal of Putin’s beliefs.
How Putin is the hero or choir boy to some Jews is amazing. He sells nuclear technology and other weapons to Iran plus other Israeli enemies. He planning on delivering advance Russian fighter planes to Iran also. To me it is simple Putin is the enemy and no amount of double talk or phony arguments will ever change that.
@Peloni, not interested in debating with you on this subject. Believe what you like, and I will believe what I do whether you think it “not fair” or incorrect. Whether you accept the arguments or not.
To me the matter is simple Putin started again an unprovoked and unnecessary war. He was making a land grab and not for the first time. I believe it is very easy to see. To paraphrase Einstein, intelligent people take something complex and simplify it. Unintelligent people take something simple and make it complex.
@Bear
@Michael
@Honeybee
Bear, my statement was not actually defending Putin, but rather identifying a clear flaw in your own reasoning, to which you seem either incapable or unwilling to offer a fair response. You describe these as red herrings, but they are quite relevant flaws in your own rationalization that Putin is making a land grab in Ukraine to rebuild the Soviet land mass. If it was Putin’s desire to recapture the Soviet land mass, why do you suppose he chose to pursue diplomacy with the clear goal of maintaining the Russo-Ukrainian Oblasts within Ukraine. Your conjecture is not in any way supported by the facts, irregardless of what you believe Putin said in a speech from 2005, from which a single line has been cherry-picked out of context (and misquoted) to support the thesis you have made here. Ignoring what Putin did say or did not say, though, let us presume that Putin is really Stalin or Lenin or some new menace all his own, with all the desires you believe to be his. How the Machiavellian heck might you explain the paradox between what you claim and what Putin did do to try to maintain the ethnic Russians of the Dombas within Ukraine’s borders for nearly a decade while the Ukrainians were still butchering them. In fact, your conclusion does not make the slightest bit of sense in light of the facts I shared.
Furthermore, you question how any Jew could defend Putin, but I am simply a Jew asking a fair question, one to which you did not fairly respond. Perhaps you will actually answer it. Or if not you, perhaps Michael, Honeybee, or some other voice of reason might be so kind as to simply answer the poignant question you left unaddressed. It is quite a relevant point, and if there is a good answer, I for one would be put well at ease to hear it explained by either one of you or the neocons who stand with you in this debate.
@Peloni, I need to explain nothing except quote Putin. He said “the biggest crime of the 20th Century was the breakup of the Soviet Union.” I do not need to get down to this or that particular red herring you or Putin put on the table.
Putin attacked Georgia, took Crimea, and tried to conquer all of Ukraine one year ago in what he thought was going to be any easy military victory. He did not even think it would be a full fledged war. So he called it a “Special Operation”.
What he and advisors did not count on was that the Ukrainian military was much better than when last stole land from Ukraine in 2014. So he now has a lot of dead soldiers in the unprovoked war he started and a whole bunch of smashed tanks and APCs.
Putin has told us over and over he wants to reconstitute the land mass of the Soviet Union as part of the Russian Federation. Some may get confused over this with the Russian propaganda and the red herrings (irrelevant arguments) about how they are fighting the NAZI’s in Ukraine and saving Mother Russia from them and saving the Russia people.
Truth is someone needs to save Russia from Putin and his Russian partners. Many Russians including many of their soldiers feel the same. He is their biggest threat and not Ukraine or NATO. If Putin did not attack his neighbors he would not be losing soldiers, getting sanctioned and destroying Russian lives.
Putin is a mass murder, kidnapper of Ukrainian Children and partner with the Mullah’s of Iran. So how Jews can defend Putin is beyond me. This does not mean Jews or Israel need to be actively involved in the defense of Ukraine as they are not an Israeli ally. Working with Ukraine to neuter or destroy Iranian military might have a mutual benefit, as Iran is Israel’s most dangerous enemy.
Ted Darlin, really?????????
@Bear
If this was all a plot to reconstitute the Soviet Union, you will have to explain why it was Russia who was arguing that the Ukrainian provinces of Donetz and Lughanz should stay within Ukraine, all the way up til last April when the UK and US paid Zelensky billions in dollars to walk away from the Istanbul peace. You will also have to explain why, if Russia was positioning itself for a land grab, it requested the ethnic Russians of the Dombas to not conduct their call for autonomy back in 2014, why they negotiated the Minsk agreements to keep the autonomous Dombas in Ukraine, and why even in December 2021, they insisted that the Minsk agreements be acted upon. None of these indisputable facts remotely fits your conjecture that Putin wanted to reform the Soviet Union or to grab any land.
The BBC honestly reported the genocide by the Ukrainian government against Eastern “Ukraine” for 8 years. Were they lying on behalf of Russia, too? Why would they? Territorial “integrity?” Ukraine was invented in 1993 and some diplomats drew lines on a map, ignoring the actual ethnic makeup of the country. Just like, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Rwanda, Syria, among others. All these diplomats of victorious powers, who drew the borders of Africa in the 1890s and later the Middle East and still later, Eastwrn Europe, And look what happened? If you draw borders around people arbitrarily and suppress their language and culture, holidays, etc., you will get civil war every time. and sometimes, foreign intervention.
Apologists for Ukraine deny the language suppression but it was reported by the western media at the time.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-parliament-language-idUSKCN1S111N
—
“Hungarians are largely concentrated in the Zakarpattia Oblast (particularly in Berehove Raion and Berehove city), where they form the largest minority at 12.1% of the population (12.7% when native language is concerned). In the area along the Ukrainian border with Hungary (the Tisza River valley), Hungarians form the majority…
”
Contents
History
Edit
Today’s territory of Zakarpattia was part of the Kingdom of Hungary since its foundation in the year 1000. From 1867, Hungary was a constituent part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, until the latter’s demise at the end of World War I. The Zakarpattia region was briefly part of the short-lived West Ukrainian National Republic in 1918 and occupied by the Kingdom of Romania at end of that year. It was later recaptured by Hungary in the summer of 1919. After the defeat of the remaining Hungarian armies in 1919, the Paris Peace Conference concluded the Treaty of Trianon that awarded Zakarpattia to the newly formed Czechoslovakia as the Subcarpathian Rus, one of the four main regions of Czechoslovakia, the others being Bohemia, Moravia and Slovakia.[1]
During the World War II German occupation of Czechoslovakia, the southern, Hungarian majority part of the region was awarded to Hungary under the First Vienna Award in 1938. The remaining portion was constituted as an autonomous region of the short-lived Second Czechoslovak Republic. After the occupation of Bohemia and Moravia on March 15, 1939 and the Slovak declaration of an independent state, Ruthenia declared its independence (Republic of Carpatho-Ukraine) but it was immediately occupied and later annexed by Hungary.[1]
When the Soviet Army crossed the pre-1938 borders of Czechoslovakia in 1944, Soviet authorities refused to allow Czechoslovak governmental officials to resume control over the region,region, and in June 1945, President Edvard Beneš formally signed a treaty ceding the area to the Soviet Union. It was then incorporated into the Ukrainian SSR. After the break-up of the Soviet Union, it became part of independent Ukraine as the Zakarpattia Oblast….[1]”
“Situation of Hungarians in independent Ukraine
Edit
See also: Hungary–Ukraine relations
Most common mother tongue and its prevalence by urban and rural district in Zakarpattia Oblast, 2001 census
Percentage of Hungarians who called their native language Hungarian in Zakarpattia Oblast by the 2001 census
Hungary was the first country to recognize Ukraine’s independence. Árpád Göncz, who was president of Hungary at the time, was invited to visit the region, and a joint declaration, followed in December 1991 by a state treaty, acknowledged that the ethnic Hungarian minority had collective as well as individual rights. The treaty provided for the preservation of their ethnic, cultural, linguistic, and religious identities; education at all levels in the mother tongue; and the ethnic Hungarians’ participation in local authorities charged with minority affairs.[2]
It is quite common among the Hungarian minority in Ukraine holds besides Ukrainian citizenship also Hungarian citizenship, although currently Ukrainian law does not recognise dual citizenship.[3][4]
In the 2014 European Parliament election in Hungary Andrea Bocskor who lives in Ukraine (in the city Berehove) was elected into the European Parliament (for Fidesz).[4] Hence, Bocskor, who is ethnically Hungarian and a citizen of Hungary,[5] became the first elected member of the European Parliament who additionally holds a Ukrainian passport.[4]
Since 2017, the Hungary–Ukraine relations rapidly deteriorated over the issue of Ukraine’s education law.[6][7] Ukraine’s 2017 education law makes Ukrainian the required language of primary education in state schools from grade five.[8][9] László Brenzovics, the only ethnic Hungarian in the Supreme Council of Ukraine, said that “There is a sort of purposeful policy, which besides narrowing the rights of all minorities, tries to portray the Hungarian minority as the enemy in Ukrainian public opinion.”[10] situation since then has been ongoing in problem, as Hungary continues to block Ukraine’s attempt to integrate within the EU and NATO over disputes on minority rights”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians_in_Ukraine
This reminds me of the time I asked an Aunt -First generation born in U.S. – if she could tell me anything about the old country and she replied, “who knows? The borders kept chamging.”
Oh but Russia sent them arms
So I googled:” french aid to american revolution” ( sans quotes)
Will you believe the BBC?:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28630391
I agree with Bear, for what it matters here. Russia was not “forced” to invade Crimea and the Donbass in 2014, the rest of Ukraine in 2022, Georgia in 2008, etc. In the past, we have simply let Putin have his way. The Ukrainians have stood up like men to oppose him. None of this is Israel’s business.
@Bear. @Honeybee.
There is no truth to that statement at all. My article “Clearly, the US is aggressor in the Ukraine War”, sets out in detail the provocations.
Bear Well said.
On February 24, 2022, Russian President Vladimir Putin launched an unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, setting off the largest armed conflict in Europe since World War II.
Why did he do this. “Putin wants to restore USSR, Ukraine’s independence contradicts his worldview – Mykhailo Podolyak in interview with Helsingin Sanomat”
Ukraine having a bad history and some bad actors (NAZI’s in some cases) is just a smokescreen for justifying Putin’s land grab and his trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union. That some including Ted rationalize this amounts to propaganda for Russian Federation run by Putin (the war criminal) and simply makes me believe that we may live in the same universe but not on the same planet.
Putin did a good job of bringing NATO to life and getting them motivated to send Ukraine weapons in mass to actually stymie the Russian military and Wagner Group. NATO now with conventional weapons would smash Russian military to bits if a direct conflict were to occur, in short order.
Russia and Ukraine now appear in a stalemate militarily and neither seems to be able to conquer the other. Hopefully someone will find a formula to get the sides to stop fighting. If Putin were replaced by a moderate Russian (probably unlikely) then Russia could withdraw from all Ukrainian territory and a peace likely would start. A Russia with no territorial ambitions could flourish with its European neighbors. At this point this is a pipe dream.
Those siding with Russia like Ted are defacto in league with Iran, whether they admit it or realize it. One does not have to love Ukraine or claim they are innocents to realize that Russia and Iran are dangerous to the world and are pure evil.
Peloni, I do not recall saying Gantz is a person of the right. Lieberman that would make sense.
If you and Ted do not believe I am being fair, on the Russian subject I will lose no sleep over that. Ted’s comment that elicited my candid view of his opinion was his retort to Michael and me saying, “I believe my sources more than yours.”
You and Ted appear to be mostly on the same of the side of the coin here on this subject of Russia/Ukraine. I did actually make an argument on this subject in the past and Ted received an email on the subject. Ted, did not like it and lost his temper, then proceeded to threaten to censor me. After that I felt I was wasting my time in commenting here on this site.
Likely, I will quit making comments soon again here or very sporadically. I am now semi-retired, my lady of 30 years died a few years ago. I find my time better spent on my hobbies (soccer & basketball fan), exercise, dating and I have started writing a book.
@Bear
Indeed, I would suggest that your personal attack here is very far from being fair criticism.
I would suggest that fair criticism would include actually making an argument as to why what Ted has been stating is actually false. These personal assaults which you specifically seem to favor on this subject fall flat as they are accompanied by no response to any of the arguments Ted has raised. I can list the many things which have been raised over the past year, which before you left you only responded by describing those who disagree with you as being Russian apologists, and now with your recent return you have made the same non-responsive response that Ted is in Russia’s pocket. I would suggest that this is below your talent.
If you believe Ted is wrong, make it clear what he has wrong and why you believe it to be so. The personal assaults you prefer over honest argument is no argument at all, but only a crutch to explain something you haven’t explained, namely why you believe that Ted or his sources are actually wrong.
I do recall that you once argued and nearly convinced me – nearly but not quite – that Gantz and Lieberman were actually men of the Right, but you did so by actually making an argument based on sound foundations. Though they ultimately proved you wrong, you have the ability, better than many I would suggest, to support your views with a better foundation than the personal recriminations to which you limit yourself on this topic. It is unfair and unuseful and distracting to argue that it is simply illegitimate to consider that Russia might not be at fault in this war, just as unfair and unuseful and distracting as suggesting that bad man Orange can never be right. Such sacred cows must necessarily be sacrificed before any fair exchange of ideas might be made, both those held by the West and those held by Russia. This is the very foundation upon which Western society and any fair judicial process is based, just as its practiced loss in the West has laid the groundwork for the deep seeded corruption now overwhelming and undermining the West and all of its most basic institutions and principles.
I have often wondered why you failed to make any pretense of an argument on this topic, and still ponder as to the why of your reluctance or inability to do so beyond this low sport technique which has been too readily employed by people on both sides of the aisle in this debate. Only by accepting that we are all capable of learning from each other and actually engaging in honest debate will we move beyond the echo-chamber of comfort which comes from censoring wrong think – which used to be an almost exclusively coercive tool of the Left – and it is not very becoming to see such loathsome techniques replacing open debate from those for whom I hold any measure of respect, which I would honestly include you to be counted.
Consequently, is Ted wrong when he states that The pot is calling the kettle, black or that Clearly, the US is the aggressor in the Ukraine war? If so, tell us why and how you believe he is wrong. If you would have us believe that you are not simply advocating Orange man bad with a neocon replacement of Russia for the Orange man, make an argument which actually addresses the issues and not the characters of those who disagree with you. Your failure or inability to do so will not necessarily prove that Ted is right, but I would suggest that it would clearly demonstrate that you are in the wrong.
@Bear
I don’t think that’s fair criticism. You accuse me of being a mouth piece for Putin which I am not. What I have done is consistently blame the US for causing the war. I base my opinion, not on what Russia and Putin says but on the opinion s of Jeffrey Sachs, Prof Mearsheimer, Col D. Macgregor, Redacted, Scott Ritter, Alex Mecouris and Brian Berletic and many others, all of whom blame the US.
@Felix
Thank you for the coherent and fair question you raise here, and I mean this with all due respect. In fairness, I have addressed the issue of Israel’s defensive aid to Ukraine in the past, but not in our current thread.
Consequently, I am quite well aware of the report of defensive arms which Israel has provided Ukraine, just as I am aware of the nuclear, economic, and diplomatic support which Russia is providing to Iran and the outrageously unjust statements made by Lavrov against the Jewish people, and the actual weaponization of the Russian legal system against the Jewish Agency. None of this has missed my view, but none of it changes the calculus that Israel has no interest in doing more than bridging the two aisles of the collection of multi polar powers rising in the wake of the fall of the American Hegomony.
The rubic cube of the geopolitical realignment taking place at current is creating a number of very concerning tempests in several tea pots, and various actions and reactions as described above by each player in this game of 4 dimensional chess is necessary to provide them each a moment to regain their balance in the new emerging disorder which is still taking shape at the moment. None of these actions, however, place Israel or Russia on a path of mutually exclusive relations. Indeed, I would suggest that the actions taken have been of such a limited nature for the very purpose of preventing such a maximal response by the other party in the Israeli-Russian relationship. As in all relationships, there must be mutual respect extended, as it is expected, and when this fails to be clearly demonstrated, either side will react within a degree of severity to regain the respect required to maintain their relationship in place. I would suggest that this has been the cause of all the events described above.
For instance, Israel is in no way supporting Ukraine full tilt, just as Russia is not spurning Israeli dialogue. In fact, I would suggest that Bibi could likely more easily gain an audience with Putin than he would with Biden, but let us not digress further from the point you raised here.
Israel must stand like the fabled harbor straddling Colossus of Rhodes, with a foot on either shore of the two warring sides, offering what constructive input and self interested interactions with either side as improves her position and extends the stability of the state and safety of her people. Doing so, however, she should remain clearly outside of the grip of this war, as this war is not in Israel’s ability or interest to respectively end nor to join, not on either side. The stakes seem to rise nearly every day in this ego stroke of the neocon project to at last conquer Russia, but if Russia is to remain and survive, she must find the means to continue to do so without Israel’s full endorsement as you would have her pledge. Or, at least, as a Jew and not a Russian, I would suggest that this seems to be a reasonable and responsible path on which to advocate for Israel to follow.
Ted, you have sounded like a cheerleader for Putin for the longest time. I put zero stock in anything you say or believe about Russia or Ukraine.
Curious does RT send you a monthly check to prop up this Russian State Propaganda dribble you write?
I apologize if I am not writing politely but I wanted to make the point so that would be understood!
Ted
To suggest that I am “picking on” Israel is a slur against what I am and what I stand for.
And I would like that to be very clearly understood.
@Bear
@Michael
So is it really true that Putin is a War Criminal? If so, is he alone a criminal to be charged by Westerners, even as Western Criminals roam about as kings and presidents? Indeed, are Ukrainian assaults against civilian centers unworthy of being labeled war crimes? Were the air attacks launched against the civilian centers of Dombas not war crimes? What of the continued bombing to this day of Donetz City? What of the American overthrow of Ukraine’s legitimate govt which came at the cost of a hundred murdered and the rise of actual Nazi’s to lead a reign of terror against the Ukrainian civilians? Was the murder of the civilian who was tricked into taking the lethal cargo across the Kirsch bridge not a war crime too? What about the murder of Darya Dugina? What of the deliberate destruction of the Nordstream pipeline? What of the Ukrainian cleansing campaigns conducted over ‘liberated’ lands? Were these not all war crimes? Yet where are the cries of outrage over anyone of these war crimes which are tolerated and celebrated by the West? Where is the retribution or remedy for the casualties of these crimes – ? The silence is deafening even as the culprits in all of these actions are within the reach of the West. Unlike Putin who is not within the control of the West, the West and its puppets are surely within the control of Western justice, and yet these war criminals roam free, celebrated and honored, supported and paid in gold, arms and praise, even as they commit one outrage after another, with only a mocking momentary rebuke (at most) for one international beach before another is such war crime is placed upon the books, and both pass without even the slightest consequence taking place, without inquiry, and certainly without justice.
So, label Putin as you like, he is beyond the reach of the rhetorical outrage of the West, but the Ukrainian allies and the American leaders you choose to support are completely within the reach of Western justice and fair retribution. Perhaps either of you might mention why there has never been any action taken against any one them, not even a single case.
And do recall that the Dombas children have been hiding from or catching mortar fire and rifle rounds since 2014 without the call of any war crimes being made against those who perpetrated wanton murders.
@Bear @Michael
The article you linked to has been removed by the posters.
Ukrainian War Room is a propaganda site. Nothing coming out of Ukraine should be believed. But the two of you fully embraced it as the gospel truth.. I would trust my sources any day.
@Felix
The TOI article you provided a link to is a very fair article regarding Israel’s position. I agree with Peloni..
Why are you picking on Israel considering that both the US and the EU are supporting Ukraine fully. What Israel is doing is insignificant in comparison. Michael and Bear think Israel should be all in in support of Ukraine.
I maintain that Israel has to navigate between the US and Russia and is under great pressure by both.
Cut Israel some slack.
Michael is correct Putin is a war criminal. Children of war. Hundreds killed and wounded. Thousands of deportees. Thousands of children from whom Russia took away their home, family and years of carefree childhood. Such crimes have no justification, but they have a purpose: it is an attempt to destroy Ukrainians and their identity.
This is happening NOW:
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarRoom/comments/13xbbs4/children_of_war_hundreds_killed_and_wounded/
Putin is a war criminal.
I am answering here this statement just made by regular Israpundit follower Peloni1986
“It is not in Israel’s interest to enter into the Ukrainian debacle. She has her own vital interests and should diligently work towards securing those, which would not include her taking on an advocacy role over the bombing of Donetz.”
It is not only the bombing of civilians carried out regularly by the Ukrainian present day Nazis which should be an issue for everyone. It is far more and indeed Peloni1986 and others seem to offer diversion.
Because as I have already pointed out quoting Times of Israel source that Israel is already backing Fascists, the Fascists of the terrible Nazism of Stepan Bandera.
Israel has already entered this war launched by Nazis against Russia against which Russia was forced to launch the Special Military Operation in order to prevent a genocide of Ukrainians who speak the Russian language.
This is what the Times of Israel article spells out naming the leaders of Israel in quite explicit form.
Israel has already taken its position ALONG WITH the Banderaites.
Peloni and others say Israel should not be involved in supporting Ukraine in the war.
Israel is ACTUALLY involving itself in support of the Kiev regime.
See article by Times of Israel that I referred to.
At the very least the essence of Israpundit at present is to hide actual facts. Is it possible that Peloni1986 despite writing articles of considerable length is not aware of these facts in which case I urge Peloni 1986 to read the text carefully of the article I referred to
https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16855866997614&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fin-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine%2F
That cannot be allowed to continue.
What is also posed is – was the annexation of Crimea by Russia following the Maidan coup organized by Empire justified. Answer is an unambiguous yes it was.
And was the Special Military Operation of February 2022 of Russia justified and correct. Answer also yes it was in order to prevent genocide.
Israel representative of the Jewish people should have no ambiguity here. There is no room for ambiguity. Israel must support those fighting against Fascism.
So it is a great misfortune for Jews and freedom of all that this is simply not the case.
In fact tragically Israel is on the side of the Banderaite regime of Zelensky and the Fascists
As this article does not leave any doubt. Israel IS on the side of Fascism.
https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16855866997614&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fin-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine%2F
So let me switch focus.
I am basically saying that the state of the Jewish people which is Israel is lining up with Banderaites which could not be more serious and the website Israpundit needs to consider it’s position.
https://www-timesofisrael-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.timesofisrael.com/in-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine/amp/?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16855866997614&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.timesofisrael.com%2Fin-first-israel-said-to-authorize-sale-of-defensive-military-equipment-to-ukraine%2F
Felix.
STOP THE AD HOMINEM ATTACKS..
i AM GOING TO REMOVE YOUR COMMENTS HERE BECAUSE OF THEM.
peloni1986 I can take Felix’s insults as this little ditty will explain yawl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-cFtSPIF4Q
Felix Darlin did I poke yawl in a very sensitive spot, yawls ego?
@Felix
A very unimpressive retort.
@Felix
Your comment to me is quite silly, but your attack on Honeybee is needlessly abusive. She asked a fair question.
For myself, I see the issue to be more basic than even this. Israel has her own vital interests. Defending Ukraine does not rank anywhere on that list.
As you suggest that this lacks ‘revolutionary courage’, I would suggest it is just plain common sense. But then again, just because they call it common sense, doesn’t mean that it is commonly present. So you do the revolutionary courage thing and go fight for Ukraine while the rest of us look for something closer to home for which to field our fire on behalf.
And stop being so rude to Honeybee.
Putin has been indicted as a war criminal, and deservedly so.
Felix, Why would Jews advocate for Ukrainians? People who slaughtered them for centuries culminating in Bar Yar. Yamit was correct you have no ” skin” in the game.
Would Trump really pull out of Ukraine? With John Mearsheimer | SpectatorTV
This is an interesting commentary with Mearsheimer on Trump’s claim to be able to shut down the Ukraine war within hours of becoming president. Mearsheimer’s view is that Trump would have no leverage to push Russia to negotiate. Mearsheimer is of course ignoring the fact that Russia’s economy is in no small part dependent upon maintaining oil above $40 per barrel, and Trump’s return to the White House would signal to the world that cheap energy costs would be returning. Exactly how cheap would very much be within Trump’s ability to manipulate and this would certainly provide him the leverage to bring Russia to reasonable terms.
Beyond this, they raise the fact that Trump’s first election was based upon a rapprochement with Russia which never came to be, but in this too there seems to be a somewhat myopic reflection on the events following Trump’s first election. The US govt raised an insurrection against its own commander in chief based upon the notion that Trump was somehow a Russian operative. The exposure of this coup against Trump has eliminated its ability to further restrain him from successfully pursuing his policy of Russian rapprochement which would clearly include ending this neocon manufactured Ukrainian proxy war against Russia. Indeed, the Deep State has fully exposed itself as a threat to the country, and thru Schedule F and potentially other future victories, such as SCOTUS revising the Chevron doctrine which in no small part provides the source of the Deep State’s administrative powers, Trump will be in a much greater position of control over the govt to fulfill his commitment of facing off against the establishment war party in Washington and bring this war to a quick and reasonable end. To do so does not in any way require him to abandoning Ukraine to total defeat as is suggested in this interview.
Additionally, I would submit that Russia has always preferred to settle this war upon reasonable terms, and it has only been due to Western intransigence to both forgo negotiations and to simultaneously act to scuttle the negotiations between Russia and Ukraine that this war is still ongoing today.
@Felix
It is not in Israel’s interest to enter into the Ukrainian debacle. She has her own vital interests and should diligently work towards securing those, which would not include her taking on an advocacy role over the bombing of Donetz.
Since this is Israpundit the question is always what the Israeli Government says on this. What does it? No faffing about precisely what does it?