By Ted Belman
David Shafir, a Toronto student, wrote to me of his despair.
I’m a student at York University in your hometown of Toronto. The number of arab youth on campus is staggering and growing by day. As you well know, they are not passive folks. They are VERY active in EVERY possible charitable and political cause on campus, and of course, in every anti-Israel event too. They are voted in as leaders of many if not most organizations on campus. Nonmuslim folks are young, impressionable,impulsive, with tons of energy and passion for doing good. They don’t have time and patience to investigate all aspects of Isr-Pal issues. They jump on the bandwagon bcs they are emphatically told by anti-israel folks what’s going on.
Ted, i can’t describe to you how widespread the anti-israelism is becoming on a daily basis. The issues are so complicated and convoluted that no one has patience and will to figure them out. All they see is “poor oppressed palestinians” and “israeli ruthless oppression” . THIS IS A DISASTER. JEWS, HILLEL, etc, ARE 100% HELPLESS AGAINST THIS, pathetically helpless. As long as israeli government doesn’t talk straight, honestly, about their plans for palistinians, things will be going downhill only. Folks here consider israeli gov an embodiment of the antisemitic stereotype of crafty, cunning, selfish, immoral jew. As long as israeli government continues building in areas that are deemed illegal by US and EU, the things will go from bad to worse. Those youth are future voters, their kids will be voters.
I can’t believe that israeli gov and diaspora leaders is so oblivious of what’s going on among gentile youth. Hillel is pathetic in dealing with this, bcs what can they do if israeli gov constantly violates the agreements made with eu and even US? Hillel have appeal only to christian students whose number on campus you can count on your fingers. Organized religion is disappearing from the youth anyway, so even this appeal is disappearing. Even many jewish youth are angry that they have to defend the indefensible, so they join the anti-israel crowd bcs the anti-israel activists are very clear about what’s going on.
Today’s youth are cynical, skeptical, impulsive, not having any respect for any authority. They immediately take on the cause of pal’s bcs it’s so similar to other oppressions, such as native americans, south africans, etc etc etc. I can’t describe to you how pathetic hillel actions look against the powerful anti-israel sentiment here.
How can i defend israel if israeli gov continues shamelessly lying to the international community and doing things deemed illegal by US and EU? It’s mission impossible! We are totally helpless; when will jewish establishment wake up? Not to mention that the number of jews is rapidly decreasing due to assimilation. Will jewish leaders wake up only when jews will be pogrom’ed here? This oblivion is beyond me!
I replied:
You obviously know a lot about what is going on on campus but little about what is going on in the conflict.
But first, I was intrigued and surprised by this sentence.
“They are VERY active in EVERY possible charitable and political cause on campus,”
I do not believe that their activity is motivated by their desire to do good or be progressive. If it was, why don’t they take on their own religion which is the biggest violator of human rights.
Instead its done in pursuance of directives from above to ingratiate themselves to and to infiltrate into the progressive communities so that they can work to get their communities to join with them in their anti Israel activities.
You are right about this,
“All they see is “poor oppressed palestinians” and “israeli ruthless oppression”
but these images are not a reflection of reality but of incessant propaganda and repetition of “the big lie”.
Similarly,
Folks here consider Israeli gov an embodiment of the antisemitic stereotype of crafty, cunning, selfish, immoral jew”
reflects lies and propaganda and not reality. The same was the case in the thirties leading up to the holocaust.
You have been affected by this propaganda and so has Hillel. Both of you refuse to take a pro Israel stand and prefer to be fair minded and progressive. You are open to opinions on both sides especially Hillel. When you do this you are not advocates but judges, judges that are ideologically progressive and ignorant.
You complain,
“As long as israeli government doesn’t talk straight, honestly, about their plans for palistinians, things will be going downhill only. Folks here consider israeli gov an embodiment of the antisemitic stereotype of crafty, cunning, selfish, immoral Jew.
You wouldn’t say this if you didn’t think it was true.
I too have complaints about what the Israeli government is saying and doing but totally disagree with what you have written. How would it help Israel to be candid in a world that couldn’t care less about facts and law, that is ready to pounce no matter what Israel does, short of capitulating. The deck is stacked against Israel and they are facing a lynch mob.
The vast majority of non Arab Israelis are against the two state solution based on the ’67 lines plus swaps or dividing Jerusalem or leaving the Jordan valley. So rather than say “no” to the international demands that they negotiate on this basis, it prefers to say “yes, but” which is a time honoured diplomatic tradition.
Israel’s basic position is “make me a better offer”. From a negotiating point of view. Israel has no obligation to make a counter offer. In fact it would be a big mistake to do so.
As long as israeli government continues building in areas that are deemed illegal by US and EU, the things will go from bad to worse.
So what if they are deemed illegal by the US, or illegal by the EU and the UN. That does not make it so. Whenever these bodies say that what Israel is doing is contrary to international law or a war crime, they are wrong. Its all about deligitimating and demonizing Israel.
Israel has every right to build in the settlements and in Jerusalem. There is no law or agreement signed by Israel that proscribes such building. It would be a big mistake to stop building because that is the only thing that puts pressure on the Arabs to compromise. Otherwise the Arabs will simply continue to live off the international teat and continue their violence and resistance for ever. By building we make time on our side.
Furthermore we have every right to build. So why shouldn’t we.
The Arabs will never agree to the existence of Israel. They want us destroyed. How would you deal with this reality?
Judea and Samaria are not “occupied Palestinian land” (OPL) no matter how many times this mantra is repeated. Not only is the land not “occupied”, it is not Palestinian and never was.
I find it easy to defend Israel because Israel is in the right. I believe that with all of my being but you don’t.
Israel must fight for their rights rather than abandon them because the international community demands it.“
Hillel is pathetic in dealing with this, bcs what can they do if israeli gov constantly violates the agreements made with eu and even US?”
Yes Hillel is pathetic but you are totally wrong about Israel being a violator or agreements. The converse is the truth but it would take a full article to show you the ways in which the great powers have violated Israel and their commitments to her.
“Even many jewish youth are angry that they have to defend the indefesible, so they join the antisrael crowd bcs the antiisrael activists are very clear about what’s going on.”
The problem is that they think Israel’s policies are “indefensible”. They and you are wrong in this. Totally wrong. You, and they, come to such conclusion because you prefer to go along to get along. You give the Arabs the benefit of the doubt. You cannot believe that the Arabs are totally in the wrong. You reflect the consensus rather than think independently. You have been brainwashed to be progressive and universal rather than conservative and particular.
“How can i defend israel if israeli gov continues shamelessly lying to the international community “.
You can’t but who says that the “Israeli government continues shamelessly lying”. Once again you have accepted the lie as the truth. Nothing could be further from the truth.
And remember, “things deemed illegal by US and EU?” are not necessarily illegal. Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty.
Where the Government of Israel has failed, is to win over the youth to their cause. Your letter amply shows this. The answer lies in changing the perception rather than yielding to it as you suggest.
Thank you for taking the time to write. You obviously care about Israel but are too ready to believe the worst about Israel.
yamit82 Said:
I think Deborah the Judge taught what to do with intruders on the Land of Israel !!!!!!!
The very fact of negotiating with the Palis denies our own legitimacy.
Conceding national rights to the Palis by definition denies our own. Then we complain that the wrold accepts their and denies ours????
Concession denote weakness and the Arabs never concede thereore they are deemed correct.
There is the tale of King Solomon the wisest man to ever live:
Two women claiming the same child and the false mother was willing to divide the child and the real one not.
Which mother is Israel and which one the Arabs?
Michael Comments Said:
I am so tired of being told to be a “nice Jewish girl”, I could scream. In fact, I did and the age of 12 I was expelled from Sat school for that very reason.
M Devolin Said:
When I was a student I was called upon to debate the Arab student on the legitimacy of the state of Israel I found the student use misogyny, rudeness and out lies. Debating or even a simple discussion was useless. Therefore I agree with you Mr. Devlin and the JDL. Screw you I am Jew and I support Israel without reservation.
M Devolin Said:
Stockholm Syndrome
Intuitive fear fused into the genes; the galut mentality, follows the jews even to israel…We just saw it again in the chief rabbi Yosef who sought to maintain the dhimmi status of Jews in Israel.
Whether a troll or a Jew, this writer is a LIAR!
It is the international community who has lied and violated their agreements with the Jewish people. “David Shamir” is the one “defending the indefensible” by parroting the lies of the libelers of the Jewish People.
this liar is not asking for information to defend the actions of israel he is asking for condemnation of the Jewish state by the Jewish people!
Ted, I suggest you ask this “student” to prove himself, I find nothing on him on google
@ Irving Weisdorf:
Most Jews can’t define themselves either… They usually define themselves by what they aren’t.
dweller Said:
1 day = 24 hrs It was never interpreted or thought of otherwise.
Now do you accept it or not????? That’s what the text says!!!! That’s what millions of Jews have always accepted and believed 1 day=24hrs problem for you???
Read what I sent you Gen 1
You didn’t read it did you!!! I chalk it up to inferior genetics.
Ted Belman Said:
Being universally hated is a curse, but it is also a blessing because it liberates you to do what must be done.
You don’t have to worry about offending anyone because everyone already despises you.
Israel must come to terms with its pariah status. Only then will Israelis be willing to take the actions essential to survival.
If the world isn’t furious at Israel, Israel is failing to protect itself. The world bitching about the rotten Israelis is a good thing. What do they say in our commando training? Enjoy the pain because it’s good for you an it keeps you healthy.
Being unpopular is a pretty small price to pay for staying alive, especially when we’d be unpopular anyway. Israel can win wars, but can only lose with the peace process.
The only time Israel ever received any respect in the world is when we defeated our enemies. I’ll Take respect over the potential supporters you seek to persuade. Winning wars is the only righteousness that counts.
The Jews will jump on such a bandwagon without the volumes of words that fall mostly on deaf ears.
M Devolin Said:
Devolin,backgrounds tell us a lot about people. Thanks for sharing yours.
There are religious Zionists because Judaism is a religion based from the beginning with Abraham, in Zion/Israel, where G-d told Abraham to go from his birthplace in Mesopotamia (I think present day Iraq). But Jews are also a nation, and those Jews who self-identify as Jews, feel that they are part of this nation. You don’t have to be religious or even a believer to be part of the “tribe” as older Jews still refer to it. If you don’t believe in
G-d, you are then a secular Zionist. Some are one; some the other; some both. It’s a somewhat different construct than that which the Irish have to deal with.
“Showing THEM that you’re right puts you on the offensive w/ Jews, and gives them the option to join you…”
I remember when JDL were doing security for some event in Toronto a couple of years ago and I mentioned to a Jewish lad who had a booth there that I believed Zionism was a segmental part of Judaism. He replied that he knew a lot of Jews who would disagree with that belief. I asked him if he was of the same opinion and he answered that he believed that Zionism was a part of Judaism but that he kept those beliefs to himself. I was dumbfounded as I listened to these words coming out of his mouth.
My father’s side “came over” during the Potato Famine in Ireland. Many of them died on a ship in the harbour of Kingston Ontario, not far from where I’m sitting at this moment. I dutifully remember them every day.
And thank you for your reply, Irv. I appreciate it.
I’m actually Irish-Canadian, Irv. My family, on my father’s side, have been in Canada since 1847; on my mother’s side (who were originally from France, then moved to Ireland and from there to Canada) since 1804. So, I must stress that I’m Canadian by birth and proud of that, but with a distinct Irish flavour. Yes, I don’t know what is up with many of the Republican Irish these days. As my dear old Dad would say, “Fucked in the head.”
@ dweller:Yes, I agree. We can not win supporters to our cause if we aren’t righteous.
@ Ted Belman:
Not if you’re talking about Jewish critics. Jews have certain collective insecurities grounded in history, which the certainty of legal rightness goes a long way to dispel.
Showing THEM that you’re right puts you on the offensive w/ Jews, and gives them the option to join you — an option that may not have been emotionally “available” to them until then.
yamit82 Said:
Yes there is but you can’t rely on them to win the day. Only an army can defend you and keep you alive. But having rights and proclaiming them gives you colour of right which enables you to claim righteousness.
Whether claiming righteousness is advances your cause is another thing. It puts you on the defensive. Maybe it is better to just say to our critics, “Go fuck yourself”.
@ yamit82:
Whether he is or isn’t a troll is IRRELEVANT to what I said in my comment, which was focused on what Ted had said to him. But you’re so bent on sniffing out an agent provocateur that you utterly miss the forest for the trees.
This is strictly a matter of faulty info on his part — and Ted inadvertently contributed to it by saying, ‘so what if the US [and others] view the settlements as illegal?’
If David is for REAL, then getting the facts will INDEED provide him the ammunition he needs for his fight.
If David is in fact TROLLING, then laying the truth on him hurts nobody except whomever the fellow reports to (and it may even lay the groundwork for prying an agent away from his control).
YOU obviously bought one at some point, and the experience scarred you plenty — since that’s all you can think about.
Depends on how long each of the days was, and how it’s measured.
Unless, of course, Adonoi is a liar.
— Is that what you mean to suggest?
Mr. Devolin, I wasn’t offended. I think it was just naive to think that you can define us, as it would be naive to think that I could define who is Irish and who not, and what rights the Catholic Irish have vs. the Protestant Irish.
but I’m glad to have an Irishman on our side–most for some reason are somewhere taught to hate Jews at an early age.
Yamit, David Shafir seems to have too much knowledge for someone who feels so unable to defend Israel. But so what!
As a Jew, I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I’ll know when I look him in the eyes!
“What rights does any country or national entity really have?”
I agree, Yamit. I think Israel has done enough “negotiating” with an enemy who is implacable, who has no intention of making peace with Israel. Why would Israel pay anyone who is out to exterminate all Jews in Israel any “financial compensation”? Israel is here to stay. Her enemies don’t like it, will never accept them as “peace partners” so the only choice left to Israel and the Jewish people is to tell those enemies, “You hate us? Fine, come and see if you can take us. We will wipe YOU off the face of the earth” (or something along those lines). I am not Jewish and I don’t live in Israel, but this is what it seems like to me. They’re trying to assassinate Jews for attempting to pray on the Temple Mount. These people want peace? I don’t think so.
Also, Irving, I want to apologize for my comments about who is allowed citizenship in the land of Israel if I offended you. I was not looking at this subject from a Jewish perspective (how could I?) and I might have sounded unctuous (might have? I probably did), so I apologize. And I apologize to all my Jewish friends here if I was out of line. I should have minded my business on the subject. If I crossed the line, I’m sorry. I’m really mouthy sometimes, and because of my Irish heritage, I speak first and ask questions later. Again, sorry Irving.
Palestinian Arabs established a “truth” by constant lying, Jews should only say a truth. And real truth will prevail.JEWS HAVE MULTIPLE RIGHTS TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.
Palestinian Arabs have rights to live in Israel as a loyal, peaceful citizens. If not, they should leave with financial compensation or by force.
dweller Said:
Bought into the trolls story without question… Want to buy a bridge in Brooklyn…??? How about the universe was created in 6 days…..??? Dinosaurs lived for five min and PUFF!!!!
@ Irving Weisdorf:
Irving there is no such things as rights… The second our enemies believe they can defeat us they will try and maybe even succeed.
What rights does any country or national entity really have?
The French are ethnically homogeneous at least until the 60’s.
Have a common language, a common history.
A distinct culture and religious uniformity.
Applying these standards, France could just as easily belong to the Japanese.
Why are the French entitled to France?
Do people who catch their dinner by using Snarol really deserve to have a country?
Michael Comments Said:
Not me? I bailed early.
Why should we compromise? We have a large well trained army
We have thousands of tanks and artillery, we have hundreds of cobras and apache attack helicopters. Hundreds of F-16 and F-15″s We even have they say hundreds of Nukes (different) kinds and even Napalm my favorite.
They got what. Do you think we should compromise??/ If yes why?
Anyway the whole of the Land of Israel is ours? Who gives up their land, unless forced to do so based on the Power equilibrium….. All we need to say is no go fuck yourselves and if any Jooos can’t handle that they can go shtup themselves too. Who needs them??? We don’t we got Micronesia and don’t need any more.
Jews here who think we do know nothing..
It’s our kids who go into the IDF and mostly not yours and I wouldn’t bend a cent, for any American or Canadian Jews until they send their kids here for national servive that gives them rights nothing else.
The student complains about the duality of the GoI positions. The simple answer is that the people of Israel as well as Jews generally want the easy way out, some nice, happy compromise that makes all hostilities go away. The problem is this nice, happy compromise does not exist, and while the vast majority of Israelis now realize this nice, happy compromise does not exist, few in Israel or Diaspora are psychologically ready to recognize this very unhappy fact. The people of Israel and the GoI are thus acting as if there could be a viable two-state solution, while fully knowing this is not the case. It is a compromised and illogical position, but for a myriad of practical and emotional reasons and consequences, this position is far more psychologically sustainable than acknowledging there is no happy solution to the Arabs’ almost century old war against the Jews.
There is a analogy in personal life. How many of us know someone (perhaps even ourselves) who blindly and foolishly persisted in a romantic attachment, or worse still a marriage with children, that either never existed or stopped existing, because the pain (and where children are involved, practical consequences) of acknowledging nothing is there is too great?
When the student himself is ready to be realistic and stand up against the Arabs, the anti-Semites and Jews like himself who happily believe in a happy but non-existent happy solution to the Arabs’ war against Israel, because they don’t want to deal with the unhappy reality that there is no happy solution, then he can criticize the GoI and the people of Israel.
@ yamit82:
results not surprising
except status quo is evenly divided, no change desired
Against removing restrictions: 34%
Support removing restrictions: 37%
Don’t Know: 29%
@ Ted Belman:
@ bernard ross:
POLL RESULTS: Jerusalem Riots and the Temple Mount Status Quo
1) Do you know what the status quo currently is on the Temple Mount?
Know: 61%
Don’t know: 22%
Might know, but not sure: 17%
2) Do you support removing the restrictions on Jews on the Temple Mount?
Against removing restrictions: 34%
Support removing restrictions: 37%
Don’t Know: 29%
3) If an arrangement were set up on the Temple Mount like it is in the Tomb of the Patriarchs, such that there is separation between Jews and Muslims, would this calm the situation?
It would create more conflict: 37%
It would calm things down: 40%
Don’t know: 23%
4) In your opinion, who is primarily to blame for disturbances over the past few months in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount?
Arabs: 55%
Jews: 19%
Police: 10%
Don’t know: 22%
4a) Same question, results broken up by sector:
Secular:
Arabs: 60%
Jews: 28%
Police: 12%
Hareidi:
Arabs: 80%
Jews: 5%
Police: 15%
Religious:
Arabs: 71%
Jews: 2%
Police: 27%
Arab:
Arabs: 5%
Jews: 65%
Police: 30%
Ted Belman Said:
I think you are right. BDS trolls tend to assume Jewish identities. If he can write back and forth making libelous allegations he should be able to properly research rather than be a parrot. If he is a Jew in Toronto he should learn that the history of the Jewish people is replete with serial, chronic, libeling of the Jewish people and that libeling has historically been the precedent for pogroms and holocaust. If he believes those things about the Jewish people then he must believe the same about himself. The world has been libeling and killing Jews for thousands of years, its his turn now to experience that fact and internalize it for a wake up call. German Jews had to learn the same after believing Germany was great for Jews. His parroting of troll mantras indicate he is a troll. You are wasting your time dealing with someone who can obviously do research on his own…college,duh?
Who does he choose to believe…those with a history of libeling the Jews or the Jews?
@ Irving Weisdorf:Be careful Irv. I get the feeling that David may be a bit of a troll. He seems emotionally committed to bashing Israel. He hasn’t internalized a thing I have said. He keeps coming back at us. Not one question about our legal rights. Nowhere does he ask me to explain better. He just keeps coming back with his mantra i.e., his accusations.
Gentlemen, 1st, you don’t disagree among yourselves. There is no person or institution who could do more to change the discourse on the campuses than the GI. No one is telling the truth. There can be NO PEACE WITHOUT TRUTH and the truth is that JEWS ARE OWNERS, NOT OCCUPIERS.
2nd, this student is asking for help, not a lecture, although the lecture won’t do him any harm.
3rd, Ted, if you can provide me with David Shafir’s email address or contact information, I would like to get him involved in a project I am working on right now. While he has been let down by our generation who have not taught their children about who Jews are, he somehow and nonetheless has the strength to cry out to you for help. He has to be taken under someone’s wing. I and my friends are willing to do that. I myself have a 17 year old in 1st year at Waterloo –and know how unprepared he would be for what goes on on the Toronto campuses. Thanks, you know where to reach me.
4th, the fight with the GI can only be won there. Take to the streets. The dumbing down of the Israeli citizenry is such that there is no clamor on the streets for freedom of worship on the Temple Mount. This is the perfect issue and no one has taken it up. Compare that to the thousands upon thousands of Hong Kong Chinese who came out at much greater risk to protest their loss of rights. WE have an uphill battle ahead of us to re-legitimize Israel, without the help of the GI, but we will do it. But don’t blame kids like David Shafir. He doesn’t have the facts –we haven’t provided them, and the pressure he is under on campus is more relentless than the pressure Obama is putting on Bibi.
But they are NOT “deemed illegal by the US”!
By the EU and UN, yes.
Not by the USA — not since the Carter State Dept holding was reversed by Reagan in 1981. And that reversal has remained undisturbed for the past 33 years and counting.
I think it’s important to never concede the matter of legality, whenever it comes up — howsoever it comes up. There’s simply no reason to, and no need to.
Your emailing student friend & his associates need to know that even the present USA Administration — perhaps the most hostile of all American administrations toward the Jewish state — HAS STUDIOUSLY & SYSTEMATICALLY AVOIDED CHARACTERIZING SETTLEMENT ACTIVITY IN J/S OR ANY PART OF J’LEM AS ‘ILLEGAL’ — electing only to use the far more subjective term, “illegitimate,” when alluding to it.
The most recent instance of this occurred when Edgar Vasquez, spokesman for the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs at USDOS, stated, regarding the J’lem District Planning & Bldg Comm approval of the plan to build 500 housing units in Ramat Shlomo, across the Green Line in the eastern sector of Jerusalem:
“…We continue to engage at the highest levels with the Israeli government to make our position absolutely clear that we view settlement activity as illegitimate and unequivocally oppose unilateral steps that prejudge the future of Jerusalem….”
Present admin has never ONCE (not since Inauguration Day 2009) used the word “illegal” to characterize the settlements — and has taken a good bit of flak from the UN for that refusal.
This is not, of course, to suggest that Foggy Bottom or the Oval Office have benign intentions toward GOI, far from it — rather that they realize that venturing to call the settlements ‘illegal’ would (quite rightly) open a can of worms they know damned well they could not close.
Instead, they harbor the hope that in hearing or seeing the term “illegitimate” as applied to settlement activity, that the American people will mentally ASSOCIATE that with illegal ; that they will THINK illegal whenever they see illegitimate.”
That hope is a vain hope, however, as I don’t think Americans are buying it, and I don’t think they WILL either
— but that’s a matter for those of us who are stateside to SEE to, each in his own way.
In any case, your student friend needs to KNOW these things. His spine may need some stiffening, but the very fact that he’s brought the matter to you is a good sign that he’s perhaps open to acquiring the understanding that will make that possible.
I replied to the student.
The student replies.
USA and Canada have to do something concrete to shut down these rabble who are invading our universities and turning our halls of learning into pig pens of propaganda. Violent confrontations are becoming the norm.
And although I’m not Jewish, I think I can empathize with this Jewish student. I’ve seen these savages up close: you can’t debate them and they refuse to acknowledge examples of real history. They respect only those who stand up to their physical threats. Enter JDL. We’ve seen an increase in interest in the JDL. People are waking up to the fact that JDL actually goes out there and ruins the BDS parties. The BDS scum are not happy to have someone like the JDL use some of the tactics that the BDS use to interrupt Jewish events and Jewish speakers.
“It is hard to fight an enemy who has outposts in your head.” -Sally Kempton
This student has already given up. He wants someone to tell him he’s justified to do so. Not a happy place to be intellectually. Ted is right: This guy needs to read real history, not the propaganda shit these pro-Pali savages are handing out. But you can’t help someone who won’t dig for himself. JDL just interrupted a BDS event a couple of days ago. I was not there, but it got physical and the BDS reptiles had to change locations after the U of T cancelled the event because of the presence of the JDL. These gutless bastards don’t mind trying to intimidate Jewish students like this guy who wrote Ted, but when the shoe is on the other foot, they shit their pants and call us “thugs.” I think the situation in our universities, both in the USA and Canada, is becoming extremely unsafe and unbearably hostile for Jewish students. We’re back to 1933.
@ Ted Belman:You are right about Bibi. For years I have argued that he must embrace the Levy Report and stress our legal rights rather than security. You will note that many of the comments say this also. Even so “yes, but” may be acceptable during the Obama presidency. We have survived the last 6 years with “yes, but”. Two more to go. If you say “no” you leave the other side with no alternative but to prosecute you one way or another.
,
And he replied
And I replied.
Ther student replied;
@ bernard ross:
Now THIS is ultimate marketing… (Find out what they want , and then give them that which they asked for…)
🙁
I expect that any deal that BB makes will not include much of YS except the major settlement blocks and will give some soveriegnty in Jerusalem. He appears to be wiping out right wing opposition to giveaways and enlisting the religious sector in that regard. He is probably accurately responding to the will of the israeli public as shown in polls.
in the right about what…are you referring to Israels policies and behavior or your own? Israel DOES NOT defend the rights of Jews to the Mount or YS….
Actually it is Israel who is pathetic becuase it NEVER disputes that Jews in YS are illegal. Why expect Hillel to be more catholic than the pope. Israel sows confusion among Jews. Here are the simple words never spoken by GOI or others in Israel:
“Jewish settlement in YS is legal and legitimate.
Those saying otherwise are liars out of ignorance or with the intent to libel the jewish state and Jewish people in the same way the Euros have for thousands of years.” Is this too much to ask of an Israeli right of center gov?
I have watched this absurd charade for years and it always comes back to the same thing.
Ted, he is right and you are wrong from a logical standpoint:
1-Israel’s policies are that Jewish rights are illegitimate on the Mount and YS.
2-How can the arabs be “totally” in the wrong when so many Jews,including the “right wing coalition”, religious sector, secualrs, leftists agree with the arabs that Jewish rights on the MOunt and YS are illegitimate.
3-My independent evaluation is that the GOI and most major Israeli institutions do not view Jewish rights on the mount or in YS as legitimate. This student logically reacts to Israeli behavior, policies and views. Your policies ARE NOT Israels policies, de facto and de jure!
He is logical to assume, based upon Israeli behavior, that Israel and the Jews are
How else can one view a nation or people who control land which they themselves do not consider legitimate. There is only ONE Israeli consideration across the board and that is SECURITY. One must expect that everyone will expect Israel to accept their security guarantees because Israel appears to be disingenuous. everything going on is a logical outgrowth of the Israeli position and behavior. There is no hope of changing the world view unless the state of Israel and Israeli institutions change their views.
All based on SECURITY considerations only. If Jews have no right to be there then of course the pals are viewed as freedom fighters fighting agianst the yoke of tyranny. No matter how much terror they use.
the right wing is in denial and cannot see where the source of their problems arise: in Israel.
Also deemed illegal by the GOI. I believe that the official GOI and Israel supreme decisions is that Israel occupies Judea Samaria until the dispute is resolved. Hence the world cites the GOI that Israel illegally occupies and it is purely a scurity situation.
Everything keeps coming back the the Israeli gov refusal to state that Jewish settlement in YS is LEGAL AND LEGITIMATE. When the GOI blows that horn everytime a foreign swindling gov states otherwise we will begin to see a change. EVERYTHING going wrong is a result of this Israeli pos tion which will even end up bringing into question the legitimacy of the state of Israel. What this student is saying is exactly the same as me. The world beleives what the israeli gov and haaretz states. I am amazed at those Israelis who look elsewhere for the problem whem to me it is so obviously caused by Israelis. According to BB,Liberman, Haredi, Egypt, EU, etc….the Jews have no rights to the Temple Mount…why would fools expect the world to think differently. disunified Jews will bring death to all. The “right wing” coalition and the religious sector discredit Jewish rights….we dont even have to blame the left wing today. Jews are ferkakt in the head, presenting a confusion that makes everyone else demand capitulation.
Yidvocate Said:
stressing security needs in declarations but not to Jews on the ground.
Here is how it appears BB will portray right wing Jews as extremists and make concessions to arabs(inc the Gulf monarchies and their puppets)for the under table deals.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Haredi-daily-Close-Temple-Mount-to-Jews-381043
Haredis against Jews to Mount, undercutting rights of Jews before the world and the arabs. Apparently for them muslims on the mount do not pollute. I think they are a political tool in this situation for BB getting the religious block agianst Jewish rights
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/187144#.VFu2tvnF-So
Egypt joining in against “radical right wing Jews”, getting Jews happy with Sisi to rejecct Jewish rights
http://www.timesofisrael.com/liberman-blasts-cynical-right-wing-mks-for-temple-mount-visits/
Liberman joins the narrative, getting russian jews against Jewish rights
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/187143#.VFu8KPnF-So
Truth or a cover up?
are these moves meant to prepare for the stand down on the MOunt and on other issues. BB appears to be allowing terror to convince Israelis to accept a peace deal just like the leftists advise: tough love? The pals engage in incitement and terror and BB does nothing. I wonder why? This narrative will defuse Jews seeking Jewish rights as a principle.
Looks like BB is lining up his ducks for his new political centrist block. Bye Bye right wing
@ Yidvocate:I totally agree.
The underlying problem in all this is the Israeli government.It has abandoned the “narrative” to the pali-poser lie conceding that it is the occupier of pali-poser lands and stressing instead it’s security needs. Security will never trump land rights because if you usurp other peoples’ lands YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO SECURITY! When will the stupid Israelis figure this out already. They have the truth on their side (it’s our land and there are no pali-people,etc.) and have sold it out to the pali-poser lie. That’s why we’re in this soup. Until the GOI changes it’s tune, it will be impossible to defend Israel from the Arab propaganda.