A two-thirds Knesset and referendum majority should be required on an issue of such long-term importance as withdrawing from Judea and Samaria.
The ability of Israeli governments to govern has been proven time and again through thick and thin during the past 65 years. Israeli governments have handled wars, signed peace agreements, put an end to rampant inflation, absorbed millions of immigrants. Other democracies, including the United States, can only envy the ability of Israeli governments to get things done. Those who sought to imitate the U.S. presidential system need only look at the problems that Barack Obama faces in dealing with Congress. Putin’s Russian presidential system is something we really don’t want.
But the real question is what kind of a majority is required for decisions of great importance or that have far-reaching consequences. Unlike other democracies, such as the United States, the Knesset has not adopted clearly defined rules establishing the majority required for the adoption of important laws or the ratification of international agreements. For example, in the United States the constitution requires a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress to propose an amendment to the Constitution, and a two-thirds majority in the Senate for the ratification of international treaties. A simple majority is not considered sufficient.
The present situation in Israel regarding this issue can only be described as legislative disorder. For the ratification of international agreements, a majority vote in the government of those present and voting is sufficient. As for Knesset legislation, laws designated as “basic” can be adopted by a majority of those present and voting, but once adopted, they need an absolute majority for repeal. There is no provision for “special majorities” in the case of matters of great import.
A change in the electoral system is, no doubt, a matter of great import, which might have far-reaching consequences. Still remembered is the unfortunate law for the direct election of the prime minister, whose key provision was passed by a one-vote margin. We don’t want a repeat of that kind of hasty experiment. Changing the threshold for election to the Knesset, and all changes to the electoral system, should require a two-thirds majority. The same is true for international treaties. The support of a simple majority should not be considered sufficient for ceding Judea and Samaria and uprooting Israeli citizens from their homes.
As for holding a referendum on such an issue, the arguments presented against submitting the matter to the entire electorate are specious. Elected governments are not empowered by the electorate to make any and all decision, especially not on issues which were not the focus of the electoral campaign which brought the government to power. A referendum would give the public a chance to express its opinion on this specific issue. But here too a simple majority of those voting in the referendum cannot be deemed sufficient for approval. As is the case for approval of international treaties in the United States, a two-thirds majority should be required on an issue of such importance and which has long-term ramifications on the future of the country.
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
I have never ridden the Cumbres&Toltec,but have taken the Durano&Silerton which was engeneered by a German Jew, Otto Mears. He introduced narrow gauge tracks into the minning areas of Co.
@ XLucid:
Just do it. It is a simple act that potentially will help our brothers and sisters in Israel. Period. Stop tying yourself in knots. That’s what the Jews in America did when information about the Holocaust began to be circulated. They figured out all sorts of ways to do nothing and we know how that turned out.
Who cares about Kerry and co.?
When the Children of Israel started to worship idols, it was against the Children of Israel that G-d became upset, and certainly not against the idols.
The idols may be represented by Kerry, Obama, the international community, etc… who cares about them?
The only thing that matters remains the reaction from the part of Israel, where the rights of the Jewish People are neglected.
@ XLucid:
While your army of truthful lawyers musters itself, if you are an American citizen, have you e-mailed your Senators telling them to oppose Senate Resolution 203? (S. Res. 203, supports Sec. of State Kerry’s efforts to force Israel back to the 1967 Auschwitz borders.) Kerry’s drive against Israel is the issue of the day and therefore the one people are paying attention to. S. Res. 203 is now making rounds in the Senate, it is the specific matter people are paying attention to, and therefore is something that we can concretely and meaningfully oppose.
Here is how you oppose Kerry:
Google your Senators. One of the top entries will be their official website. Go to their Contact page. Copy and paste the message below. That’s it. Two minutes at most.
‘Please oppose Senate Resolution 203. The US Joint Chiefs of Staff determined Israel’s 1949 ceasefire lines (now falsely called the 1967 border) are indefensible. Israel should not be forced back to the 1949 “Auschwitz borders.”’
Sending e-mails is not fighting and dying, but if enough of us did what we can very easily do here in the US, we will make it much easier for the people of Israel to live securely in our land without fighting and dying.
XLucid Said:
I think the clearest demonstration of how important it is to have a legal strategy is that the current disaster of the EU prelude to sanctions(EU guidelines) is totally based on the libelous canard that Jewish settlements are illegal. This puts paid to the notion that lawfare is irrelevant.
@ Bernard Ross said:
“The army is not required n order for Israel to open its mouth and speak on behalf of the jews.”
Absolutely true, with all due respect to the IDF, blessed shall they be.
Time is of the essence, and what is currently required is an army of truthful lawyers who will prosecute a legal war against all categories of deniers who negate the inalienable rights granted to the Jewish People worldwide with respect to their land, and who impede the enforcement and implementation of said rights.
We are talking not only about the Judea and Samaria territories, but also about the East sector of Jerusalem and the Golan, since they relate to each other.
While all the international community is barking that the presence of the Jews is illegal in the heart of their land and in their very sovereign capital, then they should be beaten at their own game, and actions should be taken by all appropriate legal means.
Silence from the part of the Israeli government has been construed by international community as an implied consent to the allegations of illegality, and the “Palestinian” seized the opportunity to ground their illegitimate claims, thereby inventing a fictitious “palestinian territory” and a fictitious “palestinian people”.
Only an army of lawyers may carry out that type of war.
@ honeybee:
Far from there we are. About 20 miles from the Hizbollah border and 40 miles from Syria. But I recall fondly Northern NM and Colorado. Durango though is a commercial joint, not more. You can go up the Silver River and or take the RR from there. Great rides.
We visited Durango many times but did not linger there. The old mines keep on spreading nasty stuff… You may consider going on to Chama and take that RR onward.
You will remember that train ride forever.
Be well and enjoy.
@ honeybee:
Have you e-mailed your Senators telling them to oppose Senate Resolution 203? (S. Res. 203, supports Sec. of State Kerry’s efforts to force Israel back to the 1967 Auschwitz borders.) Kerry’s drive against Israel is the issue of the day and therefore the one people are paying attention to. S. Res. 203 is now making rounds in the Senate, it is the specific matter people are paying attention to, and therefore something that we can concretely and meaningfully oppose.
Here is how you oppose Kerry:
Google your Senators. One of the top entries will be their official website. Go to their Contact page. Copy and paste the message below. That’s it. Two minutes at most.
‘Please oppose Senate Resolution 203. The US Joint Chiefs of Staff determined Israel’s 1949 ceasefire lines (now falsely called the 1967 border) are indefensible. Israel should not be forced back to the 1949 “Auschwitz borders.”’
Sending e-mails is not fighting and dying, but if enough of us did what we can very easily do here in the US, we will make it much easier for the people of Israel to live securely in our land without fighting and dying.
bernard ross Said:
CHOPPED LIVER,DARLINC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yamit82 Said:
Israel, by its own proclamation, has no rights in the territories other than administration. Therefore, becoming a citizen of Israel is becoming a member of an entity who has stated it has no rights in YS.
yamit82 Said:
that is the past: the future, according to the state of israel, is no more Jews to be settled in YS and even considering removing Jews. You yourself have proclaimed it is BB’s agenda.
yamit82 Said:
You appear to be going through a personal paradigm shift in your prognosis 🙂
yamit82 Said:
I think that most anti semitism in the diaspora today is based on Israel. Therefore, all jews are related to the actions of israel. Jews attacked by muslms in France are attakced becuase of Israel, they are paying a price
yamit82 Said:
I think you misunderstand my postion. If Israel is unable, for practical and existential reasons, to defend and protect the rights of world jewry in YS this cannot be a justification for its behavior. Israel does not even commit any positve action on the spiritual,mental or diplomatic plane for jewish rights in YS. It does not deny the libel of illegal jewish settlement; it could call in all the ambassadors and state its position that they are breaching their treaties and committing libel; israel could support and create NGO’s whose sole task is to promulgate jewish rights on the world stage; Israel has not taught its children tha jews are being swindled. None of these actions require israel to fight or stay in YS. They are all actions of principle upon which Israel has remained silent and complicit in the libels. Everywhere the world is calling the jews thieves,liars and swindlers for being in YS and Israel does not deny it. Israel treats the dispute as if in an arab bazaar where it is just a matter of haggling over the price. Israel is willing to give YS, which does not belong to Israel to the arabs, withoout even acknowleging that fact. Even if Israel leaves the state can only give a quit claim deed and not title. The army is not required in order for Israel to open its mouth and speak on behalf of the jews. Even if Israel must leave and cannot fulfill any jewish settlement it still has the obligation to speak and proclaim the truth to all israel and all jews. Israel could do many positive things on behalf of the jewish interest in YS such as put together jewish tycoons to fund shurat ha din to carry to Israeli and foreign courts the battle of the jewish people as opposed the the battle of the current jewish state.
What is the price to be paid for stating that jewish settlement in YS is legal?
Israel is unable to do even the most minimal imaginable action on behalf of jewish rights in YS.
SHmuel HaLevi 2 Said:
This very unrespectable Jew would love a ittle down time in Ojos Caliente,NM or Durango,CO.
bernard ross Said:
IAM that very person. You like HOT come down to Texas,time to migrate north. Iam preparing to over take Yamit82’s cabin in NY. Raise the LONE STAR over it and declare it now Texas.
rongrand Said:
Hear Hear, That just what I’am saying,boys.
yamit82 Said:
I prefere white fish.
@ NormanF:
Professor Arens is a respectable Jew but regrettably he is the original stalwart for Netanyahu. He elevated Netanyahu to prominence from where he caused terrible harm to the State.
yamit82 Said:
For Yamit 82 and Bernard, ENJOY: http://youtu.be/5k0DAerBho8
@ rongrand:
Hear, hear!
@ yamit82:
Uncle, that speech should be displayed throughout the Israeli government buildings as a reminder of what was forgotten.
If you truly believe that which is rightfully yours, you do not squander it.
@ bernard ross:
You sucked me into red-herring argument.
My original contention was that Jews not living in Israel are entitled to their opinions and criticisms of Israel, the Israeli people and the policies of the Israeli government but that as long as you are not here as a citizen with skin in the game you have no rights to anything in Israel or the territories. It’s for you an abstraction and whatever the final determination will not directly effect you personally.
You are correct that in theory, Israel in a perfect world should safe guard all of the Land of Israel for all Jews who will come to settle in the future but since you Jews have not come and governments of Israel rightly or wrongly have an immediate responsibility to the Jews already here, their decisions do not include the abstract theoretical but the reality as they perceive it today. If they are wrong we pay the price and not you. Our sons and daughters will pay the price not yours.
Those with no skin in the game have no say or rights. That’s the reality.
Peace Plan!!!!!
PEACE MAP
yamit82 Said:
are you saying that GOI wants YS? “legal jewish settlement”. Israel is the one enforcing and supporting the libel of illegal jewish settlement. There can be millions more if they give land grants. Israel cannot even say the words You were complaining about how few houses are built. Accept it, Israel does not want YS, not even all of C. they just want a little bit of C and security arrangements in J valley. They should support jewish settlement and institute an affirmative action program to give free land grants to jews to settle there in order to reverse the past damage done and atone for their sins. If not, they cannot be for the jewish people, only for those now in Israel. someone else should represent the jewish interest in YS.
yamit82 Said:
Quigley secret police? 🙂
yamit82 Said:
no mistake, they only want the main blocks not more than 10-15% of YS. that article is just about returning to 67 lines with swap. they should want all whether they can get it all or not. at least C because there is unpopulated land without arabs. that unpopulated lands is where the jews should go. If I were mistaken we would not be having this conversation. 🙂
Comment to ross in moderation
Why is it that every other comment to ross is moderated or spammed?
bernard ross Said:
The Arabs have to go and I believe eventually they will one way or another. The Haredim do serve many not in special units. Most don’t but in reality the Army never wanted them. No they will be forced to deal with them and in time it will work out. As for fighting and dieing Many die from terrorism some few in battle but they contribute in organizations of national service like “Zaka” and “Yad Sarah” and supporting the troops and society in many ways not obvious to the uninformed. I maintain that there will be a meeting where they move towards the religious mainstream,and secular society becomes more observant. Having 30-40,000 Haredi soldiers will not only transform the IDF into a truly Jewish fighting force but their influence will carry over into Israeli society… What the left has done was to shoot themselves in the foot by demanding forced Haredi service.
Let’s say that Israel is schizophrenic when it comes to Y&S. Some governments are supportive some not, some build like crazy others block and tear down or delay. That’s the way it’s been since 1967. The problem has never been the Territory so much as the Arabs living on that territory. I have a lot of direct experience here and I tell you that the cost of maintaining that population almost broke us economically. It changed the value system of egalitarian Israel where we worked, to being effendis exploiting cheap labor enriching some Israelis but taking jobs and skills away from Jews. It got to the point where no Jew wanted to get his hands dirty, Jews stopped working in construction, lost skills like auto-mechanics, baking cleaning plumbing etc. we had discovered cheap Arab labor and began to resemble South Africa. Annexation always meant we had to deal with being responsible for a couple of million semi primitive Arabs almost all a potential security risks.
So the leftist governments hit on the idea that if we build Jewish settlements it would spur the Arabs to the negotiating a peace on our terms. Never happened. Right wing governments built out of nationalistic Jewish ideology but still had to contend with 2-4 million hostile Arabs, prodding from the left to spend the money on needs inside of Israel which have always been neglected and the pressure from our friends in the west to get out. Until BB no government completely stopped all building. Peres Built ( He was the first) Shamir built, Rabin built ,Barak built more than any of them, Even Olmert built more than BB.
Where they built had a lot to do with the resources the IDF was able to contribute in support of the security. The IDF always opposed being overstretched do to manpower constraints and greater or lesser risks to the settlers and soldiers. They looked at always limited budgets and preferred to spend their budgets on what they considered those outlays which advanced and strengthened the IDF and not spent on manpower used to guard and provide security to civilians. Every road Israel built in Y&S came out of the defense budget as did much of the infrastructure in the territories. Every additional bypass road skirting Arab towns and villages comes out of the defense budget. The left says building in Y&S is at the expense of building in the Negev and Galilee, development towns like Dimona Kiryat Gat and Yehrucham. There is much truth in such claims.
That said every Israeli government has put Y&S and Jerusalem at the top of their national priority list meaning allocation of funds and increased subsidies to residents of those areas and that includes the present government that only last week included Y&S against the objections of Livni and Peretz.
What I am saying is that Y&S is full of complexity and should not be judged simplistically without acknowledging the positive aspects our governments have made and understanding some of the real complexities involved in keeping the-territories and expanding them.
A referendum is not something that can decide this because Israel’s claim to the Land is not based on the legal or political principles of other states for which referendums are used.
In fact the claim is three-fold: based on the gifting of the Land by God, based on the right of conquest, and based on the sanctification of the Land by Levites. The right of conquest for the second time is immaterial because Jordan never claimed any territoriality on the west bank of the Jordan.
There is a greater problem though because the cultural identity of a Jew is derived directly from the kingdom of Judeah, which happened to have occupied most of the west bank of the Jordan. If this cultural value is taken away, no Jew can really call him or herself that again, and will become Israeli if they apply for citizenship. However, the Islamic world regards Israel as an illegally created state, and even this identity can be challenged eventually in international courts. It then becomes conceivable that at some, maybe not so distant future, we as a people could end up without a state, without a land, and without cultural identity also.
@ bernard ross:
Comment to ross blocked by spammer pls retrieve and post.
Bernard what I posted in comment #19 is only part of a longer reply blocked.
@ bernard ross:
Last time I looked there are over a half million Jews living over the green line.
This says you are mistaken: 😛 https://www.israpundit.org/archives/56774
@ bernard ross:
Last time I looked there are over a half million Jews living over the green line. As HB says that’s not chopped liver. Admittedly there should be twice the number if there was more support from All governments of Israel but when you consider where we started from what we have can be considered a success. An infusion of 50-100,000 Jews with deep nationalist and Zionist motivations could transform our political reality. Just as Russian immigration has. Russians Jewish or gentile immigrants were anti socialist pro Y&S and anti Arab. They influenced the political landscape of Israel moving the country to the right. Similar immigrations from the West can do the same. I see settling the Negev and the Galilee no less important than Y&S, we are losing the demographic battle in those two vital areas.
I have said many times the key to preserving Y&S is preserving the integrity of Jerusalem and the temple mount. Hold on to them, no compromises and everything else will fall into place sooner or later. There is still a strong Israeli consensus on preserving Jerusalem so activism should be directed with concentration there above all else. It will block any agreement, force another conflict where we can solidify and maximize our hold over all of Y&S.
Sharon demonstrated that the IDF is quite capable of retaking any and all territory ceded to the Palis in past agreements. If the current negotiations fail the palis have nowhere to go but to revert to their standard MO of violent opposition. Even if UN grants them recognition without Israel it’s meaningless and we can strangle them to death. They are almost 90% dependent on us. Jordan already an economic basket case cannot handle 2-3.5 million unemployable Palis in addition to what they already have. Once we allow Abbas to pass from the scene they ain’t got nobody to take his place other than Hamas.
I suggest patience and a lot more optimism than what you currently project. Even the worst scenario concessions BB or any other leader might make are reversible but with a cost. If Israel can stay ahead of the international economic pending collapse we will get our immigration and be strengthened.
Iran is my biggest concern and here I fluctuate between wanting to believe BB will do it before it’s too late and believing he is all bluff and won’t. In a couple of years Obama will be history and we start over with another idiot. In a year or two BB will also be history and who knows???
I may be critical of BB and the Israeli government past and current but am not a negative believer. No society in the world is more dynamic and creative as ours, none. Israelis lead the pack in being content and happy.
This says you are mistaken: 😛 https://www.israpundit.org/archives/56774
yamit82 Said:
then why doesn’t Israel annex C if not all of YS. Apparently it feels the imperative to follow the directives of others even though it has conquered and can hold the territory.
yamit82 Said:
it conquered them at least 3 times and yet it is pressured to give back the land and is apparently bending to the will of that pressure. Apparently fighting and dying for the land means squat when it comes to holding on to it. Perhaps it has something to do with those legal things.
yamit82 Said:
Certainly not any entity who does not protect the only remaining interest of the Jewish people in YS. before the state there was the agency. the state has abandoned its trust and agency and therefore a different agency should represent jewish interests in YS because jewish rights did not expire it is only that the party in charge has no personal interest. If you were looking after the property of a friend and were unable to continue the obligation would you give it away to a 3rd party. Would you confuse the responsibility of looking after it with the right to give it away without compensation to the owner, would you pocket the cash?
yamit82 Said:
that does not make sense. Israeli jewish citizens are banned from settling YS. It is already clear that the future of Israel is not congruent with the future of the territory of YS. Becoming a citizen of Israel means being banned from settling in YS. It is as probable that a 3rd party Jewish group could negotiate separately with the arabs as weizman with faisal.
yamit82 Said:
it looks like most jews in Israel have little interest in YS and those with interest are unable to unite. Lots of voices but little interest in YS. Israel sees YS as a burden , a millstone and the settlers as troublemakers. Israel is not YS, according to Israel.
yamit82 Said:
there appear to be many in the state of Israel whose rights are not contingent on their willingness to fight and die. e.g. arab and haredi. But the rights you refer to are within the green line of the official state of Israel. Jeiwsh rights in YS are not legally subject to Israeli rights in the green line of which you are a citizen.
yamit82 Said:
the state of israel does not include YS. the state itself has proclaimed that it has no interest in anything more than a few % of YS. therefore whatever is being offered can only be within the green line.an does not include YS. I can understand the state of Israel not wishing to fight or die for YS but it wont even utter the words that Jewish settlement is not illegal. The state has advanced itself as the representative of the entire jewish people but has in fact operated in detriment to the beneficial rights of the global jewish people in YS. The state of israel is not the jewish people. If Israel does not want YS it should appoint a 3rd party jewish agency to represent the jewish people in YS because the state by its own proclamation does not want an interest. Israel, the state, has an obligation to the global jewish people it claimed to be representing. Israel obstructed rather than encouraged the right of jews, not just Israelis, to settle in YS. If Israel did not want YS it should have prevented only its own citizens from settling in YS. However, it had a responsibility under international law to settle jews in YS. It should have least have not obstructed Jews and facilitated a voice for jewish settlement. Even now, it could be saying to the international community that the state of Israel has no interest but it does have a responsibility and obligation as does the international community to settle jews and give them a voice. Just because Israel does not want it it does not mean it is theirs to give to anyone. Jews clearly have a right and the state of israel clearly obstructed that right just as did Jordan and the UK. The state of Israel has a right to prevent its own citizens from settling in YS but it has no legal right in preventing non israeli jewish citizens and it should have been facilitating that effort. There are other paths that the state can take, if it does not want YS, whereby it withdraws its claim but proclaims that the jewish rights exist separate from the state of israel. It should lobby the international community to appoint a trustee in YS to carry out the original mandate. it cannot be said that the state of Israel has been as good as it cuold have been for jews in YS, it has stopped Jews from YS. Therefore, it cannot be said to represent the jews only remaining interest in YS. Israel only represents those within the green line.
Perhaps if Israel left YS but beforehand settled jews it could allow them to form a separate state and support their birth as a separate state: Judea? You have proposed another state in the past.
yamit82 Said:
What if those ideas are wicked?
honeybee Said:
I agree.
“Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.”
XLucid Said:
Not quite correct. The British government recognized the Jewish Agency for Israel as the sole representative of the Jewish people. When Israel came into formal existence the authority of the Jewish agency was transferred to the legally constituted Israeli government. The Jewish agency took upon itself to promote and assist diaspora Jews to immigrate to Israel as their primary function to this day. Who else logically if anyone should hold the mantle and position of leader and spokesman for the Jewish people other than the government of the only Jewish political autonomous sovereignty in the world?
Any Jew wishing to influence the future of Israel and the territory of Y&S can do so by immigrating to Israel and as an Israeli Jewish citizen make his or her voice heard and become active in convincing others aside from or in opposition to the existing established government.
yamit82 Said:
GREAT MINDS FOLLOW THE SAME TRACK
honeybee Said:
I know.
XLucid Said:
I have said many times that none of your legal arguments however correct mean squat. Israel exists today not due to any treaty or international understanding and not due to any sympathy some nations may have felt after the holocaust. The Jewish people’s right to reestablish their nation-state in the biblical Land of Israel became a pillar of international law and this aspect of international law was merely a formal acknowledgment of the aboriginal Jewish right to the Land.
Clearly, Israel exists due only to the fact that the renascent Jewish State militarily defeated the seven Arab states (namely, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan aka Transjordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Yemen) which, together with the Arab League’s “Arab Liberation Army” and local “Palestinian” militias drawn from Arab population centers throughout the western portion of Mandatory Palestine, had sought to annihilate the Jewish State, thereby igniting Israel’s War of Independence.
Had the Jewish population centers of the western portion of Mandatory Palestine been destroyed by the Arabs, and had Israel thereby lost its War of Independence, then neither United Nations’ resolutions nor supranational remorse would have sufficed to reverse such a catastrophic denouement.
Clearly, there is an enormous difference between endorsement and creation. While the United Nations certainly endorsed the establishment of modern Israel (at least within the tiny Partition Plan lines), that feckless endorsement (which was so violently rejected by the entire Arab, and larger Muslim, world) had no operative effect on the creation of the Jewish State precisely because it was stillborn.
Nonetheless, that endorsement did bestow upon Israel a unique international legal status, namely, that of being the only nation in the World whose establishment was officially endorsed by both the League of Nations and the United Nations.
In the absence of this belligerence and impatience, approximately 40% of the citizenry to be encompassed within Israel as defined by the 1947 Partition Plan lines would have been Arab, thereby constituting a demographic time bomb within the renascent Jewish State. 😀
yamit82 Said:
This is true.
bernard ross Said:
Your rights are contingent upon your willingness to fight and die for that right. You can not stand on the sidelines offering advice or criticism while we do the heavy lifting. You want a voice? you are all welcome to come and join us, short of that you have no rights in determining our future. There is a difference between giving support and giving and receiving rights.
The Jewish state belongs to the Jewish people only when they are living on the Land and we have extended to Jews everywhere under the Law of return immediate national rights only upon entering the land and requesting citizenship. You must first return to receive those rights. 2 Step process.
A case can be made that Jews who refuse to make aliyah are in fact rejecting the land and abrogating their rights today.
@ Bernard Ross:
There are some non profit associations bearing various names starting or ending with “Israel legal rights” but it seems that no one has ever attempted to take legal actions, whether by lack of money or lack of interest, or both.
Of course, wealthy Jews around the world would have financed the projects, but some preferred to waste hundred of millions for Hussein’s election, which is shameful and would have never happened, especially taking into account what the Jewish People is facing re their legitimacy to assert and enforce their rights to their land.
The Israeli government is left alone doing what it pleases, as if the Land belongs to it. No one is contesting.
XLucid Said:
I believe there is a massive unexploited opportunity for proponents of jewish settlement and rights. I believe this could be pursued in Israel, the UN, against libelous orgs, in civil and criminal forums. this can be pursued under the names of orgs or individuals as class actions. There are so many ways in which jews could go on the offensive against nations, orgs, media, etc tying them up in the courts. It should be approached as a war with strategies and tactics and battles. Israel greatest failures have been in this arena and it is this arena which has been sorely neglected. It should be an NGO venture funded with big bucks that might even be sustained by damages earned later.
@ Bernard Ross
I fully agree with your views.
These territories of Judea and Samaria were granted not only under international law (San Remo and the Mandate of Palestine), but also under American law, which is less notorious.
In fact, the Joint Resolution known as the Lodge-Fish Resolution (adopted in 1922) and the Anglo-American Treaty (adopted in 1924) represent fundamental legislation, both signed by the Senate and the House of Representative, and then signed by the President, thereby becoming the law of the land of the USA.
With respect to the Israeli government, if he is to be considered as a trustee or an administrator charged of the administration of property or patrimony , then he becomes subjected to many rules and regulations.
First of all, he must act in good faith and place the interests of the beneficiaries above his own, acting in the best interests of the beneficiaries. He has an obligation to increase the patrimony, and certainly not to alienate the land.
The Israeli government is exceeding his powers and he should be reminded of that fact by all legal means.
further to my last post: We have the state of Israel who disposes of an asset he is obliged to protect and pockets the cash without anything going to the beneficiary of the trust: the global jewish people. Furthermore, we have the people of Israel who have, by refusing annexation,no interest in YS deciding to sell YS and pocket the benefits in the form of a “peace treaty” while global Jewry gets nothing. If this isn’t swindling then I don’t know what is. The state of Israel can withdraw and give up any purported representation or agency of global Jewry but it has no right to give the assets, rights and interests of the Jewish people in YS to others in order to obtain benefit for itself. Crooks, con artists and swindlers always conveniently confuse assets left in their care with ownership. The state of Israel is a swindler of the Jewish people as evidenced by its ongoing actions. It confuses the assets of Israel with the rights, interests and assets of Jews. The state of Israel does not even protect the rights of jews to pray in Israel or YS. It is not a state, an agency or a representative of the Jews.
XLucid Said:
XLucid Said:
this is not only true biblically, which should be sufficient, but also legally as the state of Israel is admittedly only the administrator of those lands which it does not claim. YS was specifically set aside for diaspora Jewish immigration and settlement and those nations who subscribed to the treaties of san remo, LON mandate and the UN charter were legally obligated to facilitate the Jewish immigration and to encourage close settlement of the Jewish people. As Israel is a party to the UN charter and a defacto successor to the british mandate then it has the same obligations as the others. It should either annex YS, facilitate and encourage Jewish settlement without annexation until YS has fulfilled the mandate or hand the administration to a Jewish entity, as before Israels inception, which will fulfill those directives. It is sad to realize that the prime obstruction to jewish rights, and interests, in YS continues to be the state of Israel.
The state of Israel has the right to withdraw but not the right to dispose of the lands of YS. If it pretends to be the successor agent representing the global jewish population it also cannot dispose of the land because it would be disposing of the land in return for perceived benefits accruing to the state of Israel but not to the legal beneficiary of the mandate interest: the global jewish people. a trustee who disposes of the assets of the trust to his own benefit rather than that of the beneficiary is guilty of a crime of fraud. Fraud and swindling is exactly what successive Israeli politicians have been committing on the global jewish people in order to advance their own interests. The prime directive of a trust, and of an agency, is to protect the asssets and interests of the beneficiary. A rich jew who can afford to spend 100 million supporting a presidential candidate should contribute 100 million to establlish a jewish entity who can sue Israel for breach of trust regarding YS and to demand the appointment of a new agency who will not swindle the jewish people to further its own interests. The administrator of the trust seems to beleive that the property of others is his to dispose. There is much to be done in lawfare and it is despicable that rich jews fund american candidates rather than funding the interests of the jewish people.
The question could be asked differently: Why did Israel settled in Judea and Samaria?
The answer is that the territories of Judea and Samaria belong to the Jewish People historically, morally and legally. No country in the world would divest its History or Heritage.
A referendum placed before the Israeli population would not only insufficient but illegitimate for the simple reason that Israelis are not the owners or title holders of these territories of Judea and Samaria.
Indeed, the territories of Judea and Samaria belong to the Jewish People worldwide throughout ages and generations since our forefather, Abraham, as confirmed to Isaac and Jacob, as mentioned in Genesis XVII-8:
“And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.”
Therefore, the Israeli government as a “democracy” should submit the question to all parties involved – including our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and G-d The Almighty – to vote if they really wish to disinherit the Children of Israel from their everlasting patrimony and heritage in order to offer the same to the children of Amalek.
The Israeli Left gets hysterical about democracy.
It likes Israel as an elected dictatorship. Why would it want to change it?
Moshe Arens’ proposal is commendable but it will get nowhere.