By Ted Belman
Today I was involved in a strong exchange of ideas with Arlene Kushner and Nadia Matar of Women in Green. Nadia expounded on her philosophy,
My partner Yehudit Katsover and I came to the conclusion some 5 years ago that:
1) the battle on the ground is important and even crucial and WIG are doing it on a daily basis- but it’s not enough
2) that calling for Jewish building and expansion is important and even crucial –but it’s not enough
3) that declaring and proving that Israel belongs to the Jewish People and we arent occupiers is important and even crucial- but it’s not enough
4) that declaring that a two-state solution is complete suicide is important and even crucial- but it’s not enough
All these above things were done already before the expulsion from Gush Katif and N.Shomron and need to continue to be done but it’s not enoughWhat is lacking? we asked ourselves…… We wrecked our brains and Yehudit said it simply:
We MUST come up with an alternative to the Two-State solution.
That is what the people of Israel want to hear; that is what each and every person who we convince of the justness of our cause asks:
Ok, you convinced me that this is our land; ok you convinced me that the two-state solution is terrible, so what do you suggest??? What should be done? What is your alternative??
And to our shock and horror we realized that almost no one in our camp adressed that issue…
yes, a few tsaddikim did adress it- Mike Wise and friends already callled for Sovereignty twenty years ago-
but they did not turn it into a big campaign
And that is what we are trying to do- if we manage to raise the funds-change the public consciousness from being focused on the negative two-state solution to the positive sovereignty solution. That is why we already arranged 3 big conferences and just came out with our Sovereignty journal.
Our two campaigns have very different focuses. Your Levy report campaign is, if I undertsand it correctly, more focused on convincing the Israeli politicians to accept the Levy Report- and I pray you succeed and wish you hatzlacha..
Our campaign is focused also on the politicians but also on the public, with the idea that if the public starts talking about it more and more-it will reach the ears of the politicians too. That is why we distributed 100,000 journals in hebrew and 10,000 in English. The reactions by the people were unbelievably positive. There is a thirst for an alternative to the two-state solution. The replies we got were: finally someone is saying what should be done-where have you been till now… and thus dear Arlene, Women in Green will continue this campaign on as many fronts as we can raise funds.
I don’t want you to feel that we are competing, for we are two separate campaigns and we should wish each other hatzlacha /
May all those working for the safeguarding of the Land of Israel succeed, please G-d.
Arlene Kushner and Jeff Daube of the ZOA are presently lobbying Knesset members to embrace the Levy Report. Their Plan is well thought out. They have hired a lobbyist who is well versed in the need for and the issues involved in accepting the Levy Report. They believe it is a stepping stone to sovereignty.
Bear Klein Said:
Janpanese Jews or Jewish Japenese???????? Is that what they call a JAP??????????
@ CuriousAmerican:
“Paradoxically it was the Israelis who initially came with the highest, and most accurate, estimates. In early June Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion was told by Yossef Weitz of the Jewish National Fund (JNF) that « some 123,000 Arabs left 155 villages in the Jewish state’s territory; another 22,000 left 35 villages outside the Jewish state: a total of 145,000 evacuees and 190 villages. Seventy-seven thousand Arabs left five cities in the Jewish state’s territory (Haifa, Beisan, Tiberias, Safad, Samakh). Another 73,000 left two cities [designed to remain] outside the state (Jaffa and Acre). Forty thousand Arabs left Jerusalem: a total of 190,000 from eight cities. All in all, 335,000 Arabs fled (including 200,000 from the UN ascribed Jewish territory). »
“As can be seen below, my own calculations, based on British, Jewish, and to a lesser extent Arab, population figures of all identified rural and urban localities abandoned during the war, amounts to 583,000-609,000 refugees.”
See the whole account in great detail by city and village and related article in debth
http://jssnews.com/2011/04/16/the-real-number-of-arabs-who-fled-israel-in-1948/
Yidvocate Said:
Is that an invitation ?????????????? Sugar !!!!!!!!!!!
@ honeybee:
Kosher Sushi in Israel
http://www.eluna.com/rest/sushi.asp
@ honeybee:
WRONG AGAIN my little pollinator!
@ Bear Klein:
Sushi ain’t kosher,I even know that!!!!
@ honeybee:
I like this video a lot better than the trashy bear stuff! It is pretty funny actually!
@ honeybee:
Some Bears love trash and some prefer sushi.
@ CuriousAmerican:
CA You said you are good at website building.
Start a 501C Corp. and raise funds to get rid of the Palestinians (pay to relocate)?
Suggestion what do you think?
@ Bear Klein:
Cleaniness is next to G-dliness: http://youtu.be/svz_0JPNVQk
XLucid Said:
The Mexican,Comanches are always saying Texas belongs to them. WHO GIVES A DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!Darlin
Bear Klein Said:
I thought my comments are quite trashy, but then Bears love trash!!!!!!!!Sugar.
@ honeybee:
Your comments are quite funny!
Jordan is Palestine: Arieh Eldad’s Two-State Solution
There are four major elements of his plan: 1) recognition of Jordan as a Palestinian country; 2) the closure of UNRWA and the creation of a plan for the settlement of Arab refugees in Jordan, under the auspices of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), which has a track record of successfully resettling tens of millions of refugees around the world; 3) Israeli and international guarantees of a continued Hashemite rule in Jordan, and 4) the application of Israeli law in Judea and Samaria.
@ Ted Belman:
Yes I believe this the way to go. Annex what you need of Area C or B excluding the major Arab population centers. Then figure what to do with the rest, maybe city by city for autonomy if some areas do not work. Since the Arabs are tribal it might be possible to obtain an autonomy agreement with a local Sheik such as they Hebron whose tribe is huge.
XLucid Said:
So why all the anxcious debates?
@ Honeybee,
The Land of Israel is a whole and complete immovable property belonging to the Jewish People according to international law and American law, and their rights are enshrined in duly executed treaties.
Arabs are contesting the rights and are claiming that the Land belongs to them without any evidence or proof.
If the Israeli leaders were actually convinced of their rights, in their hearts and mind, that they are entitled to the whole Land, then they would have never split the Land and gave pieces to Arabs (ie, Hevron, Bethlehem, Scheckhem, Jericho, etc.).
A sane person would never share his house and give some of his rooms to the first claimant who contests and claims that the house belongs to him.
As Professor Auman rightly pointed out: “if we do not have a right to Hevron, Gush Etzion, or Ariel, we do not have a right to Tel Aviv“.
XLucid Said:
Why do Jews need to convine themselves that they have a right to live in Israel? I read on the Israpundit this constant concern of the legal rights of Jews to live in Israel.I can almost smell the conective angs.
The Jews who settled Texas never felt this way, Texas was their home and they woud not be moved.
@ Benard Ross said:
“Without the govt declaring the legality of Jewish settlement in YS and declaring the obligation of Israel to facilitate immigration and encourage Jewish settlement, as per all prior international treaties and law,….without this there can be no sovereignty.”
I fully agree with you.
Professor Aumann declared the same in his own words as shown in the comment above.
“Profesor Aumann: PM Wrong on Iran Danger
Nobel Prize winner tells students that Prime Minister Netanyahu has got his priorities wrong on Iran, Palestinian Authority.
At a special event Wednesday, Nobel Prize winner Professor Yisrael Aumann told students at Bar Ilan University that Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu was “making many mistakes” in his policies towards the Palestinian Authority, Iran, and in dealing with foreign pressure to withdraw from areas of Judea and Samaria.
“Concessions and ‘gestures’ do not bring peace,” Aumann said. We need to understand that if we do not have a right to Hevron, Gush Etzion, or Ariel, we do not have a right to Tel Aviv,” Aumann said.
“We are all ‘Palestinians‘,” he said, referring to the fact that until relatively recently, the term “Palestinian” referred not to a particular nation, but to those living in the geographical area that was termed by world powers as “Palestine”.
“Before we try to convince our enemies that the land belongs to us, we must convinced ourselves that this land is holy for us as well. I do not say that as a right-wing supporter of full settlement in all parts of the Land of Israel,” the Nobel laureate said, but from a purely geopolitical point of view.”
yamit82 Said:
Natalie is a lucky woman: http://youtu.be/npvJ9FTgZbM
@ bernard ross:
@ CuriousAmerican:
That goes for you two,too. Into the washroom with all of you,yawl
@ CuriousAmerican:
yamit82 Said:
Is this third grade. Miss H is sending y’all to bed, you’re to tired to play.
CuriousAmerican Said:
Are you calling Bernard a Liar????
Objectively and only based on your comments it is not improbable and is plausible that a reader might construe that you are in fact an Arab.
Your reaction lends credibility to that conclusion…You are an Arab.
yamit82 Said:
Todays Swedes and my Viking ancestors have nothing in common. The Vikings probaby would apprciate you Yamit82 as a fellow warrior. By the way, I see where Natalie Portman has now run off with Thor. Good joice,Sugar
CuriousAmerican Said:
We are not into or concerned with helping the Arabs, they got 300 million Brothers some very very wealthy more than the Jews even. They got the Japs, the EU and the Krauts, Frogs and Limeys to support them not to mention HB’s Vikings. Iran supports Gaza Arabs as well as the Turkeys and your taxes pay into the pot as well. With all that you want us to pay? Actually in some ways we are paying a Billion shekels a month in VAT and other import duties rebated to Abbas’s private bank acct. We pay for thir electricity, Telephones, water and millions in free medical services.
The JNF and private Israelis have a lot of property purchased in the early 1900’s that is lost to the Palis and have no rights of claims legally. Much of Arab claims of ownership is bogus because they are squatting in property of Jews driven out by pogroms and wars over the past seeral hundred years.
In addition to the question of sovereignty: Except as set forth in Article 25 of the Mandate for Palestine, although the Arabs residing in Mandatory Palestine were to retain their individual rights therein, specifically their civil and religious rights (see Mandate for Palestine, Preamble, Paragraph 2; and Articles 2, 9, 13, 15, 16 & 23), the Jews of Mandatory Palestine — whether their residency predated or postdated the creation of the Mandate — were to be accorded exclusive national rights thereto (i.e., collective sovereignty over the Land upon its independence) as a measure of restorative justice for the Jewish people (see Mandate for Palestine, Preamble Paragraphs 2 & 3; and Articles 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 & 11). Although Article 3 does not state which of the several resident populations was to enjoy local autonomy during the existence of the Mandate, that provision’s placement between Articles 2 & 4, taken together with the explicit raison d’être of the Mandate, leads to the conclusion that the resident Jewish population was the intended beneficiary thereof. This embedded distinction between national rights accorded to the (present and future) resident Jewish population of Mandatory Palestine and individual rights accorded to the resident gentile populations of Mandatory Palestine is epitomized by Paragraph 2 of the Mandate’s Preamble, which specified that “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people” should not come at the expense of the “civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”. If the Mandate had intended to also grant national rights to the Arab and other gentile populations of Mandatory Palestine, then this preambulary provision would have been rendered unnecessary.
The Mandate granted to the Jewish people two distinct legal rights inherent in the reestablishment of the Jewish National Home, namely, the collective right of settlement and the collective right of self-determination. In order to effectuate both of these rights, Article 6 of the Mandate required the Mandatory Administration to facilitate large-scale immigration and land purchases by Jews. Concomitant with the foregoing, Article 7 of the Mandate required the Mandatory Administration to provide for the bestowal of Palestinian citizenship upon immigrating Jews. Moreover, Article 4 of the Mandate authorized the creation of a local Jewish government (in the form of the preexisting Zionist Organization co-founded by Theodore Herzl in the 19th Century, which is presently known as the World Zionist Organization) to assist the Mandatory Administration in the performance of its Mandatory obligations to the Jewish people. In furtherance of the League of Nation’s goal to prepare Mandatory Palestine for eventual independence as a Jewish State, Article 11 of the Mandate authorized the Mandatory Administration to delegate to the local Jewish government the performance of important national governmental functions (namely, the construction and operation of public works, services and utilities, and the development of the Land’s natural resources).
In emphasis of the Mandate’s grant of exclusive national rights to the Jewish people, the appellation “Arab” does not appear anywhere in the Mandate. Likewise, the appellation “Palestinian” does not appear in the Mandate, except in its reference to “the acquisition of Palestinian citizenship by Jews” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 7). In fact, nowhere in the Mandate is there a reference, by name, to any ethnic group other than the Jewish people. Instead, the Mandate subsumes the Arab and other gentile inhabitants of Mandatory Palestine within the following generic categories: “existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine” (Mandate for Palestine, Preamble, Paragraph 2), “inhabitants of Palestine” (Mandate for Palestine, Articles 2 & 15), “other sections of the population” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 6), “the various peoples and communities” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 9), “the different religious communities in Palestine” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 14); “each community” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 15); and “the respective communities in Palestine” (Mandate for Palestine, Article 23).
@ Ted Belman: Ted, soveriegnty begins with Jewish settlement in YS. Without the govt declaring the legality of Jewish settlement in YS and declaring the obligation of Israel to facilitate immigration and encourage Jewish settlement, as per all prior international treaties and law,….without this there can be no sovereignty. The prior basis is the legality and legitimacy of Jewish settlement. No one in GOI can even bring themselves to utter these 2 historical facts and legal obligations. The greatest criminals are the Israeli govts. who could not even open their mouth and talk. In this regard Bennett looks like a revolutionary and BB looks like a milksop. No other GOI leader has done this
CuriousAmerican Said:
did someone ask you for your phone number? Did you tell the arabs they should pay?
CuriousAmerican Said:
my mistake I thought you were a christian arab
CuriousAmerican Said:
this is one of the foreign myths harassing Israel. The only positive thing that has to be done is for Israel. Israel is not obligated to do positive things for the pals. They have thus far allowed them to remain in place which is extremely magnaminous to such an enemy, magnaminous to a point of absurdity.
You are lying.
I have gone on pro-Palestinian sites and told them that compensated relocation is the best idea.
I get flack from them.
I will not point to a URL. I will not give you my phone # either.
@ yamit82:
I’ve been saying this for a year now. Teach to make silver jewlery, weave rug, fancy bead work, and dances for tourist. And don’t forget to deny them their language and religion,be sure to sell lots of drugs and liquoir. Remenber inaduacate health,education.
I agree that Israel should not allow the rabid Mullahs to preach jihad on PA TV.
I UNDERSTAND WHY ISRAEL EXERTS CONTROL. But the fact remains that it is control.
NO CONTROL OF TRADE
Israel is in charge of import control, NOT the PA. Quite understandably, but it is still control.
NO CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN POPULATION REGISTRY
Israel is in control of the population registry and IDs (click here). Quite understandably, but it is still control.
NO CONTROL OVER THEIR PHONE AND INTERNET LINE
Israel is in control of the phones and internet. Quite understandably, but it is still control.
NO CONTROL OVER RESIDENCY
Israel is in control of residency, which is why Gazans cannot move to A&B. Quite understandably, but it is control.
NO CONTROL OVER AIR RIGHTS
Air rights are Israeli. Quite understandably, but it is still control.
NO CONTROL OVER BROADCAST SPECTRUM
Broadcasting is subject to some Israeli control. From Reuters: Israel raids Palestinian television stations
I understand why Israel does these things; but one cannot deny that the PA is not free. Not by a long shot. It is a Bantustan.
I understand why Israel has to do these things; but in doing so, one cannot say the PA is free. That is a legal fiction.
This is why I say Sovereignty Now will only formalize a de facto situation. It will not improve UNTIL the elephant in the china shop (the Palestinians) is dealt with.
It is not enough to stop TSS. Something positive has to be done.
BTW: I am NOT in favor of demolishing Jewish nor Arab houses.
Maybe Sovereignty should deal with compensated relocation.
CuriousAmerican Said:
I certainly hope they resist and with everything they can conjure up. Then we can justifiably drive them out and liquidate the rest. Don’t worry about our neighbors agreeing to receive them, we won’t ask them for permission.
my reply 2 to CA in moderation
CuriousAmerican Said:
You are the one that wants to see them paid and you are an arab. They can be driven out by bus, truck or on foot without pay. Furthermore, they would not take pay from israel because the arabs would not OK it. If the arabs pay it would be certified by them as ok. everything is better if the arabs pay. Apparently I was right in that the important part of your argument is purely about the Jews must Pay, the rest is window dressing. Very few would leave if the jews pay because they are “bristlers” by nature.
CuriousAmerican Said:
HMMMM? It is possible that is what they have done by leashing hamas, cleaning the sinai, attacking hezbullah, attacking assad? This certainly has improved Israels situation in the event of anyone attacking Iran.
CuriousAmerican Said:
If they were pushed into lebannon and syria it would help the arabs to avoid further arab spring type chaos of refugees that might rise up against weak govts. Once they are outside of Israel you will see the arabs resettle the pals. The arab monarchies have a longevity problem and they are not stupid enough to ignore it. turmoil has backfired on them and as you can see they are fighting shias instead of jews. HMMM?? the only stable nation is Israel the arab ME is being destabilized by Iran and they are scared of losing their monarchies. They want it solved now and time is not on their side, they dont care about the pals they want their own stability.
@ CuriousAmerican:
Information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine,_Texas
CuriousAmerican Said:
On the contrary it has served well. The only problem is that jewish settlement in YS is not progressing and is obstructed by Israel including the present PM. Leave A and B in the status quo for a generation to see if by then the pals stop educating and inciting their children. Meantime get moving on a massive settlement of Jews in YS and take under jewish control religious Jewish sites. I would not raise the living standard in A and B so as to encourage them to leave. Bennet shut up amanpur and this needs to occur more often.
I could easily see why relocating Palestinians helps Israel, which is one reason I think Israel should pay.
I do not see how relocating Palestinians would help the Arabs?
Maybe you could convince the Saudis to pay for Israel to attack Iran.
Better you should contact the Arabs since you are so much smarter than me. (sarcasm)
CuriousAmerican Said:
I am sure that if you spent your time on arab websites explaining why it iis in their best interests to pay you would be able to convince them. you could start by pointing out that their entire empire is in flames and resettling the pals is in the interest of their own stability. you could show them that the money they spepnd on terror could resolve the problems. you could show them that their israeli card is backfiring because iran and the shias have hijacked it to wreak havoc in their own lands. you could show them that Israel is non agreesive and could even be an ally in the sunni shia wars. There appears to be a lot more at statke for the arabs on their way down hill than for the jews. I am sure your persistence will be convincing, you can say “the arabs should pay”
Israel could destabilize all their regimes by pushing the pals across their borders, convince them it is cheaper in the long run and Israel is not going anywhere and they dont even like the pals.