Til now Israel made all kinds of threats,especially Liberman did, threatening to abrogate Oslo or annex the leand etc. Obasma counselled against such response. Guess Obama won again. Ted Belman
By HERB KEINON, JPOST
Senior diplomatic source says Israel doesn’t want to make moves that divert attention from PA’s violation of int’l agreements.
Israel will take a “low-profile” approach to the Palestinians’ expected bid to upgrade their status at the UN on Thursday, so as not to divert attention from the Palestinian Authority’s violation of international agreements, a senior diplomatic source said Tuesday.
The source said that if Jerusalem, as some in the international community feared, greeted the Palestinian move with a decision to build thousands of new housing units in the settlements, then that would become the center of attention, not the Palestinian step.
Israel’s position is that the Palestinian resolution seeking observer state status is a clear violation of the underlying principle of the peace process, which requires all outstanding issues to be resolved by negotiations.
The source’s comments came even as senior Israeli officials were meeting in Washington with Obama administration officials to try and water down the ramifications of the resolution.
One idea being raised is that the legal consequences of the UN General Assembly accepting the Palestinians as a non-member observer state would not be retroactive.
This means that if, as a result of this decision, the PA is able to take Israel to the International Criminal Court, it will not be able to make claims against it for anything that happened before the GA resolution was passed.
The senior diplomatic official said that as a result of the Palestinian move, Israel would stick punctiliously to the letter of the agreements it has signed, including the 1994 Paris Protocol mandating economic relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Under that protocol, Israel can withhold tax money it collects for the PA to pay for goods and services Israel provides it.
The PA owes more than NIS 800 million to the Israel Electric Corporation, a debt that Jerusalem will now most likely withhold in the two upcoming monthly tax payments scheduled to the PA.
According to the source, PA President Mahmoud Abbas is making this move now to cover up his domestic failures and his inability to “deliver” a better life to the Palestinians.
The recent events in Gaza have shown him to be irrelevant, the source said, and he is looking for ways to demonstrate his significance.
“This move is not about the Palestinian people or a Palestinian state, but only his survival,” the source stated.
Although the official said the move would elicit “fireworks in Ramallah,” it will not change anything on the ground. He added that Israel had no intention of issuing declarations or taking dramatic steps to “punish” the Palestinians for the move.
Rather, he said, “everything we can do according to Israeli law and international agreements, we will do.”
This “low-profile” policy is in stark opposition to comments Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman made earlier that Israel should cancel the Oslo Accords and end all contact with the PA if Abbas went through with this measure at the UN.
US and European diplomats have urged Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in recent weeks not to take overly dramatic steps in response to the PA move, which is largely viewed as symbolic, but rather to wait and see what Abbas does with the resolution before deciding how to react. Israeli officials said Netanyahu and Liberman were closely coordinated on this matter.
Israeli diplomatic officials, meanwhile, said that the Palestinians had turned down a British proposal asking them to commit to not taking Israel to the ICC, and to restart negotiations immediately, in exchange for British support for the resolution.
France, meanwhile, has said it will back the resolution.
French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said as much on Tuesday in the French National Assembly.
It was former French president Nicolas Sarkozy who first suggested that the PA go to the UNGA, as compensation for his not favoring its move last year to seek full statehood recognition from the UN Security Council. It would now be difficult for the French not to support the proposal, an Israeli Foreign Ministry source said Tuesday.
While many in the EU had hoped that the 27-member union would be able to muster a consensus on the issue, it is looking less and less likely, with some EU countries expected to support the move, others to oppose, and still others to abstain.
Israel will take a “low-profile” approach to the Palestinians’ expected bid to upgrade their status at the UN on Thursday, so as not to divert attention from the Palestinian Authority’s violation of international agreements, a senior diplomatic source said Tuesday.
The source said that if Jerusalem, as some in the international community feared, greeted the Palestinian move with a decision to build thousands of new housing units in the settlements, then that would become the center of attention, not the Palestinian step.
“We will react at the right time,” he said.
Israel’s position is that the Palestinian resolution seeking observer state status is a clear violation of the underlying principle of the peace process, which requires all outstanding issues to be resolved by negotiations.
The source’s comments came even as senior Israeli officials were meeting in Washington with Obama administration officials to try and water down the ramifications of the resolution.
One idea being raised is that the legal consequences of the UN General Assembly accepting the Palestinians as a non-member observer state would not be retroactive.
This means that if, as a result of this decision, the PA is able to take Israel to the International Criminal Court, it will not be able to make claims against it for anything that happened before the GA resolution was passed.
The senior diplomatic official said that as a result of the Palestinian move, Israel would stick punctiliously to the letter of the agreements it has signed, including the 1994 Paris Protocol mandating economic relations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Under that protocol, Israel can withhold tax money it collects for the PA to pay for goods and services Israel provides it.
The PA owes more than NIS 800 million to the Israel Electric Corporation, a debt that Jerusalem will now most likely withhold in the two upcoming monthly tax payments scheduled to the PA.
According to the source, PA President Mahmoud Abbas is making this move now to cover up his domestic failures and his inability to “deliver” a better life to the Palestinians.
The recent events in Gaza have shown him to be irrelevant, the source said, and he is looking for ways to demonstrate his significance.
“This move is not about the Palestinian people or a Palestinian state, but only his survival,” the source stated.
Although the official said the move would elicit “fireworks in Ramallah,” it will not change anything on the ground. He added that Israel had no intention of issuing declarations or taking dramatic steps to “punish” the Palestinians for the move.
Rather, he said, “everything we can do according to Israeli law and international agreements, we will do.”
This “low-profile” policy is in stark opposition to comments Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman made earlier that Israel should cancel the Oslo Accords and end all contact with the PA if Abbas went through with this measure at the UN.
US and European diplomats have urged Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu in recent weeks not to take overly dramatic steps in response to the PA move, which is largely viewed as symbolic, but rather to wait and see what Abbas does with the resolution before deciding how to react. Israeli officials said Netanyahu and Liberman were closely coordinated on this matter.
Israeli diplomatic officials, meanwhile, said that the Palestinians had turned down a British proposal asking them to commit to not taking Israel to the ICC, and to restart negotiations immediately, in exchange for British support for the resolution.
France, meanwhile, has said it will back the resolution.
French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said as much on Tuesday in the French National Assembly.
It was former French president Nicolas Sarkozy who first suggested that the PA go to the UNGA, as compensation for his not favoring its move last year to seek full statehood recognition from the UN Security Council. It would now be difficult for the French not to support the proposal, an Israeli Foreign Ministry source said Tuesday.
While many in the EU had hoped that the 27-member union would be able to muster a consensus on the issue, it is looking less and less likely, with some EU countries expected to support the move, others to oppose, and still others to abstain.
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HERB KEINON
@ Bernard Ross:
War may or may not be a choice that Israel has (probably not).
But Europe COULD have avoided war with Hitler.
In 1938, the French army alone was half-again LARGER than Germany’s; before Munich, the Czech army was AS strong.
Hitler (accurately) sensed the weakness in Chamberlain & Daladier; he sensed how terrified they were of the prospect of a repeat of the GreatWar.
— Most people (Chamberlain amongst them) had lost somebody in that war, and Hitler played on that fear with the skill of a master on a Stradivarius.
He was brilliant; no other word for it.
In the end, what they most feared was ITSELF their own (and Europe’s) undoing.
@ yamit82:
Abbas has a better barber
— and I don’t think he has a thing for playing ride-the-tiger
with fat-butt boys
on cold Bucharest nights
(of course, I could be mistaken about that).
@ steven belsky:
There is always NAPALM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ stephen belsky:
Abbas has Never uttered the words “Jewish state;” neither has ever abandoned the “right of return,” which would eliminate the Jewish state demographically by flooding it with 4.4 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants; nor has he ever acknowledged the Jews’ historical link with this Land, which is a vital component of Jewish statehood.
Abbas has consistently opposed these ideas. After [United States President] George Bush called Israel a “Jewish state” at the 2003 Aqaba summit, for instance, senior aides to Abbas were furious, declaring that such a definition was unacceptable and that Bush had “ambushed” the then [Palestinian Authority] prime minister. Abbas never dissociated himself from these statements.
Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was Israel’s foreign minister during the Camp David talks in 2000, later related that during preliminary talks in Stockholm, Palestinian negotiators agreed to discuss limits on how many refugees Israel would absorb. Subsequently, however, “Abu Mazen [Abbas] persuaded [Palestinian negotiator] Abu Ala not to get into any discussion of numbers, but to stick with the principle of the right of return.”
Nor has Abbas budged from this position since. In November 2004, while campaigning for the PA chairmanship, he declared: “We will not rest until our people’s right to return is granted.” He has always held to the position that the right of return “nonnegotiable” and rejected “any attempt to resettle the refugees in other countries.”
On the Temple Mount, Abbas rejects even the Clinton formula of Israeli sovereignty “under the mount” and Palestinian sovereignty atop it; he refuses to acknowledge any Jewish rights there at all. Yet if Jews have no rights in Judaism’s holiest site, where do they have rights? And if Palestinians cannot accept that Jews — and hence, the Jewish state — have rights here, how is a two-state solution possible?
Indeed, this is one of the issues over which negotiations collapsed in 2000. According to Ben-Ami, he eventually proposed ceding sovereignty over the mount in exchange for Palestinian recognition that “the site is [also] sacred to the Jews.” But the Palestinians refused to sign any such statement.
There is no evidence that Abbas’s “real” positions differ from his public statements. The only difference between Abbas and Arafat is How They Dress.
reply to Belsky in moderation
steven belsky Said:
I dont know how you come to this conclusion. I think most people on this site are very worried by the current situation and by the paradigms which have led to it.
steven belsky Said:
You speak as if war is a choice that Israel has. The same as if Europe had a choice, no matter how desparatly they tried, to avoid war with Hitler. Have you never heard the phrase “you may not be interested in war but war is interested in you”? (I believe it was Churchill) Your comments appear to arrive out of a vacuum as if all the events were born yesterday.
steven belsky Said:
It can well be all of these and this is why most here are worried.
Do you actually believe that Israel can make a decision for a “peace” agreement that will lead to actual peace? If you can view history and current events, which show the unbelievably obvious failures of ALL paradigms for peace that have been pursued by Israel, and arrive at such a conclusion I can only conclude that you are incredibly ignorant or just plain disingenuous.
steven belsky Said:
I have given my solutions many times in prior posts. My solutions require no agreements by any other party to implement and can be achieved unilaterally by the GOI. All my suggested unilateral actions are based in legal agreements, precedence or the principle of quid pro quo and a repudiation of any double standards. No agreements will be honored which have been breached and no agreements will be negotiated with those who have defaulted on prior agreements(Hamas,PA,PLO,fatah). In my solution Oslo will be declared dead and all who entered Israel under Oslo will be now declared illegal aliens and deported back to Tunisia or to Gaza, Lebanon, Syria(incPLO, PA fatah)this is easily achievable by seizing buffer zones depositing the illegals and then withdrawing (similar to gaza jew deportations of GOI); based on fulfillment international agreements of AR, LON and UNC80: YS will be thrown open to jewish settlement with an accelerated affirmative action program based on US style Homestead Act to mitigate prior obstruction of settlement;the Geneva conventions will only be observed in so far as they have been observed by other comabatants(no one sided observance); the remaining west bank arabs will be allowed to remain temporarily with the same status they enjoy in arab countries(stateless refugees in camps)or expelled as part of a population exchange resulting from the various arab/israeli wars wherein expelled jewish refugees have already completed their part of the swap(legal precedence exists);Anyone engaging in incitement or terror will be mandatorily, and automatically, deported(inc muslim clerics); a fund will be set up to encourage arab emigration to jordan, gaza or elsewhere as part of fulfilling population exchange; Any sanctions or drop in UNWRA funding will result in immediate deportation to seized buffer zones in adjacent territories; there is more but not for now. All of these need no agreements and all have already been considered as acceptable by international entities as it has been allowed to bedone to the jews(precedence,no double standard)Israel has already prior seized contiguous territory and has already handled mass deportations(of jews)steven belsky Said:
the short answer is first deport the PLO, PA leaders and fatah, under oslo breach then deport the rest over time to the remaining JEW FREE areas of former palestine under population exchange..
Irrespective of all your arguments that Israel need not worry-all is well and continue doing what it has been doing, there is the question of what to do with the 3.7 mil pals in their midst. Will they remain passive without some progress towards their desire for self determination. Can Israel continue to live with the ever present tension of another war, or other wars. What will it be Iran, PA, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, or Turkey.How about some well thought out solutions rather than all the pontificating, finger pointing, fist pumping and breast beating.
@ stephen belsky:
“Stood against terrorism”? — would you consider the Black September group terrorist?
You recall the 1972 Munich Olympics massacre?
— he was the paymaster. He signed the paychecks of the Black September perpetrators that pulled that off.
(Remember how the rest of those guys were dealt with?)
Well, as a purely practical matter, it damned sure provides an incentive for the OTHER shlemiel to quit dickin’ around, and buckle down to the business of negotiating
— before the pizza’s all gone. . . .
my reply to freyman is in moderation
Donald freyman Said:
Disagree, my argument with GOI is a separate argument.
I contested the following
stephen belsky Said:
He was either being disingenous or unaware of the principles of law and keeping agreements, e.g. rights of jewish settlement in various treaties,etc.
His assumption that Israel is greedily gobbling up land when jewish settlement on the west bank is to be “encouraged” under international law. His apparent lack of knowledge regarding the existence of the Oslo agreement which, in my opinion, has been breached by the UN and PA decision, thus rendering it void.
Donald freyman Said:
Wrong again! The only agreement declaring such is the Oslo agreement which is not only now dead, legally, but was not a binding treaty as such, it was an agreement meant to lead to a treaty.
Donald freyman Said:
It is not only my argument but is stipulated in internationally binding legal documents stated prior.
Donald freyman Said:
WE DO NOT KNOW ISRAELS CONTENTION BECAUSE ISRAEL WAS FOLLOWING AN AGREEMENT WHICH HAS NOW BEEN LEGALLY BREACHED. Therefore, it may decide that it is no longer bound to the agreement. I am not a clairvoyant refarding GOI, it is in flux. Israel is a govt not a person. Recently there are new interpretations of the court regarding jewish settlement and the documents I mentioned. Also, there is the new announcement on home building which must be interpreting law along those same lines. The paradigm of land for peace has proven to be consistently unreliable. There is a principle that material situational changes can alter or abdicate treaties. Israel has the opportunity to leave Oslo and demand the fulfillment of the prior agreements to the Jews.Donald freyman Said:
Normally I would agree as Belsky is also doing. However, apparently even in this case you are also wrong. The rights of settlement accrued to the global jewish population and as a member of that legal class I have an individual right under the benefit of those documents which is being breached by all parties including the state of Israel. Therefore, as in a class action I would also be “speaking” for the category of which I am a member. Much has been written on this issue and the possible violation of the state of Israel of these rights as a fiduciary agent, as the successor to the mandate trust and even as an occupying force in administration of the area. Are you not familiar with these issues, they have been discussed here many times(read Grief, Benzira)
@ Donald freyman:
there was a character in ayn rand’s ‘fountainhead’ named ellsworth m. toohey (what a nice goyishe name…)
she has artfully described and painted with her words a most despicable character
the epitome of a well poisoner set out to destroy excellence and all that is good.
that kind of describes you, the man behind the comments, to a ‘t’ herr freirman.
please understand this freirmann!
mr. ross’ commments DO represent i dare say the majority of those that read and comment on this blog.
but i suppose that articulate, logical, factual and TRUTHFUL comments do not sit well with the likes of you.
there is a glee in your posts, when you point out the setbacks for the good guys…
partzuf doresh egrof..
@ Bernard Ross:
Your argument is not with Belsky- it is instead with the Gov’t of Israel who already has agreed in principle to the creation of a Pal state. Their only stipulation that it comes about through negotiations. The argument that the territories are Israel’s is your argument-IT CERTANLY IS NOT ISRAEL’S CONTENTION.Bernard Ross speaks for Bernard Ross and nobody else.
stephen belsky Said:
Belsky, to be frank, I have not encountered your level of ignorance and lack of knowledge of the issues since Haaretz. Here is a principled objection of which you appear to be completely in the dark: as we speak there exists a right to the Jewsih people to settle west of the Jordan River. This right is guranteed by the signatories and participants to the treaty of San remo, the League of nations Mandate, and the UN Charter article 80. This right has never been legally cancelled rescinded, waived, or limited. The wording in fact refers to the “encouragement of the settlement of Jews” by all parties. There has been no succeeding treaty, agreement or declaration which is legally superior to these documents. UNGA 181 partition was a legally non binding resolution, UNSC 242 was in conflict with those documents and as such its legality is questionable. Only the Treaty with JOrdan and Israel can supersede in International law. Most of the participants on this forum are knowledgeable in detail with history and the relevant facts and the comments you make are based on ignorance of law. You appear to be a parrot clone, expecting to come to this site and hear an echo as you are probably used to in forums for the ignorant like haaretz. Sites such as those thrive due to the lack of knowledge and laziness of the mind of its readers. Before making ridiculous comments on this site you need to do much more to inform yourself of historical facts. You might be surprised that “50 million frenchman can be wrong” and that the same world that just admitted PA to UN is the same world that colluded in the slaughter of jews.
stephen belsky Said:
the land of israel is not a pizza and your pathetic analogy is idiotic. 77% of the orignal palestine mandate was illegally given as the arab state of transjordan with only 23% remianing to the Jews. Guess you are clueless as to how this happened and how the jews were swindled and still continue to be swindled. It is the arabs who stuffed themselves and it is the jews who crumbs of a state continue to be whittled down.
stephen belsky Said:
this land is the jews land
stephen belsky Said:
You apparently know nothing about the Oslo agreement either which has been broken by the PA and the UN by declaring this state outside of the agreement. Why would anyone be stupid enough to conclude any further agreements with an entity who has just broken their last agreement? DUH??? apparently facts, history, etc are just inconvenient details for you as you view the issues the same as you view cutting up a pizza. Please try to get the minimum amount of knowledge of the issues before you post here as it is an insult to everyone else’s intelligence: we disagree but rarely is such a obvious and massive ignorance displayed on this forum. The forum cannot spend its entire time trying to educate you
@ Canadian Otter:
My skin is too tough for a mosquito to penetrate. Black flies have penetrated my tough skin. Was even stung a few times by scorpions with not much effect. When I was a kid I was given an ant colony in a sort of narrow aquarium, watched them for a few days and got bored put them in my closet and when I remembered them they had all died 🙁
I have a family summer home in the Adirondacks, lake front property. Lots of critters and bugs , between Schroon Lake and Lake George called Paradox Lake. I loved spending the winters there snowed in.
Scientific Proof of God
The Scientific Case For Intelligent Design
@ yamit82:
I like ALL animals (except for mosquitos). I can’t say I can connect with all of them, but they fascinate me. Even microscopic ones. I’m very intrigued by insects. I admire them, particularly how they develop their own armor and chemical weapons – tiny bits of life, but ‘smart’ enough to survive and even thrive. All life forms make us think about the mysteries of biology, intelligence and consciousness. The octopus can be ‘smart’ too. It is amazingly cunning and resourceful. It has no brain to speak of but it can ‘think’ and solve problems. I’m not a scientist but I love this stuff. 🙂
PS: I always say that even the most primitive life form is smarter than the Jewish left. Even an amoeba knows how to avoid danger. Animals understand the concepts of territory, protecting their own, and knowing how to tell friend from foe. The Jewish left knows none of that. It’s headed for extinction, that’s for sure. Just don’t let them drag the rest of you along.
@ yamit82:
I’m no huge fan of Mahmoud Abbas. But he’s stood against terrorism, hates Hamas as much as does Israel, eschews the nihilistic revolutionary postures of his deluded predecessor Yasser Arafat, and seems interested in wrestling with the hard, technical issues that will be the stuff of any two-state solution.
Moreover, his demands over the past few years generally have been sensible — in particular his call for Israel to stop building settlements during negotiations. There is no principled objection to this: You can’t negotiate the best way to divide a pizza with a guy stuffing his mouth with slice after slice.
In rejecting the Palestinians’ UN bid, the U.S. Ambassador called it a mere “shortcut,” and that the real solution is “a comprehensive peace agreement” reached at “the negotiating table.” No one disputes that this is how a final deal will be hashed out. But in any negotiation, success comes only when both sides have some leverage they can bring to the talks. As things stand, Abbas has zero leverage, because he has renounced terrorism, Israel keeps gobbling up land, and Netanyahu — who seems happy with the status quo — has no incentive to make any concession whatsoever. The only way things will move forward is if Abbas is able to gain some form of leverage — which explains this week’s UN gambit.
@ Canadian Otter:
I connect only with animals with warm blood, Not revolted by reptiles just can’t connect with them emotionally, birds either. My sister has birds and her vet bills are more than I spend on all my cats and dog
@ Canadian Otter:
Canadian Otter Said:
Nobody will agree neither the GOI nor the Arabs. Jews refuse to leave give up their Israeli citizenship, so that the GOI has no legal authority to evict them. Other Jews will occupy vacated dwelling of Jews who leave. Stateless Jews have like the Arabs the protection of the UN and international Law. While these Jews might not lift a finger against another Jew or IDF soldier they have no compunctions when it comes to Arbs. Stockpiles of weapons and ammo should be stockpiled and readied if needed. If really threatened seriously I don’t see the GOI sitting idly by and certainly the people of Israel would not remain silent were such a scenario to manifest itself.
Don’t have all the answers but it would be embarrassing for the GOI who sell themselves as THE Jewish State.
Log onto Samson Blinded under Judea, he outlines some ideas some doable others??
@ yamit82:
ISRAEL AND JUDEA – I don’t know enough about the subject. But I can envisage an arrangement, with Judea as a separate province or something like that. However the first priority is to have Israel annex the land. It would be impossible to set up an independent Judea with both Arab and Israeli violent opposition.
I haven’t watched TV today. I don’t want to see anything that happened at the UN. ~~~~~ I like snakes, I have even handled pythons. I really like them and find them fascinating. But most people have a physical revulsion at the sight of a snake, The same thing happens to me when I see Abbas and his cohorts. You may say that the other goyim supporting him are worse, and you may be right. But I too am affected by emotions. And when I see Abbas, I see a murderer.
Absolutely! But somebody must get it started!
@ Canadian Otter:
Principles before Movements
The settlement movement must lead but they must also attract Jews especially young Jews from all over the country and even the diaspora.
No revolution with current and known Israelis in and out of politics. I say end run and force them by seriously reviving the Jewish State of Judea concept and movement.
The State of Judea Movement
THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION:
ISRAEL AND JUDEA
Abbas Drops Moderate Mask BB Keeps His
Turkey’s FM: Give state of Palestine its rightful place under the sun; Canada’s foreign minister: Get back to the negotiating table
Live: Netanyahu slams Abbas’s ‘hate speech, dripping with venom’; Turkish FM says ‘Al-Quds will be Palestinian capital forever’
General Assembly vote on upgraded status for ‘Palestine’ due at 5pm EST, set to pass by huge margin; Abbas and Prosor have both spoken, followed by foreign ministers of Indonesia, Canada and Turkey; Israeli government sources say Oslo is dead; rightist arrested at anti-UN rally
Vote: For- 138 Against- 9 Abstentions- 41
@ Bernard Ross:
Exactly. Nationalists don’t even have to invent the wheel. They could learn from the left. How hard can that be!
They also need to focus on clear priorities. The number one priority is to extend sovreignty over all the land. The rest can be taken care of later. Including settlements, the additional Arab population, the electoral system, and many other important issues. The benefits from sovereignty would be so vast that they would energize the entire country.
@ the phoenix:
Where are they? Well, let’s see. MKs Ben Ari and Eldad were burning a Palestinian flag today. Throwing a tantrum just like the Arabs. – http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162681
Women in Green are kind of waking up. They are demanding annexation. Just like that. No organization, no clout, no nothing. They spent years sending youths on symbolic hilltop carpentry projects, when they should have concentrated their efforts organizing Yesha and the whole country, and campaigning for annexation. (They’ve got a loyal following on Israel National News and I got flak for saying so in the past.)
Who else? Feiglin is following his mirage. It’s getting closer, closer….
Anyway, Israelis will just have to work with what they have.
Canadian Otter Said:
I have found that the left everywhere seems to be better organized in focusing on and achieving their goals than the right. E.G. Instead of constantly criticizing and second guessing outcomes and ultimately doing nothing whereas the left identifies all weapons at its disposal and applies itself with focus on all of them. Peace now and all those leftist groups have been utilizing the law successfully against the right for decades, they have formed successful alliances with their international compatriots. The right tends to whine and moan rather than identify tactics and unite to accomplish them. It looks as if the right only knows how to give speeches and vote. For those people who think it is a waste of time to use legal weaponry I predict they will see a waterfall of such cases now against Israel along with the resultant negative PR that accompanies it. It should have been Israels role to create a waterfall of legality. The world has totally jumped on the bandwagon and a prime cause is Israels lack of attention to important issues. Israels disunity is another prime cause: this has demonstrated that there is no real voice in Israel loud enough to counter the cacophony of external and internal detractors. The world will always try to give Israel less than what it demands and from what I can see it demands nothing.
Today I note 2 events: Olmerts 11th hour declaration of support of the Abbas application and the Naturei Karta’s ongoing global effort against Israel. When a recent Israeli PM and an ultra-orthodox sect who proclaim themselves to be torah true Judaism carry the Pal flag(figurative and literally) why would we expect ANYONE to stand against it? Foreigners cannot distinguish between one orthodox sect and another with black hats, peyas and citing Torah: sometimes even Jews cant.
Canadian Otter Said:
so where are they?
in another thread, yamit replied to c.r. and said that
“Kahane is dead. I have have a good replacement though”
so yallah! it’s already 5 minutes to midnight!!!
@ Bernard Ross:
Do they have a plan? The public, you mean? They have dreams, I suppose. They dream of living in peace. I don’t think that they are even minimally aware of what their leaders are really up to.
But I firmly believe that it only takes a small group of people with determination, convincing arguments, and a good plan and organization, to change an entire population’s outlook and society. For better or worse. (The Left did it.) But as long as good leaders keep fighting with each other, creating and dismantling mini-political parties, and trying to reach consensus on every single issue, there is no hope. And then there is Moshe Feiglin, unwittingly serving the left.
Canadian Otter Said:
Apparently Israelis are satisfied as they protest for economics but not about these issues. The question is: do they have a plan, of any kind, or are they just “winging it”.
Israel keeps stating that the PA action is an “obstacle to peace negotiations”. However, if it does not prove that statement in fact then Israel will be seen to be the perennial blowhard, which used to be the arab forte. Israel should devise a way to end negotiations to prove that it is an obstacle.
@ Bernard Ross:
When we talk about ISRAEL and government of Israel, we’re talking about two completely different things with opposed and conflicting agendas. ~~~ “Negligent GOI”? You are too kind, Bernard. These people are not stupid. If the GOI were a business employee, he would be charged with something more serious than negligence. Starting with the gang of 1967 that gave Temple Mount to the enemy and refused to annex the land. And you can go on from there. ~~~ The last four years: construction freeze, daily rockets, daily terror on motorists and other victims – all looked upon with utter indifference by authorities. The recent war stopped as soon as there was an agreement that favors the enemy. Something is definitely wrong with this picture. And it’s going to get worse. ~~~ Authorities give moving speeches about security, the sacred land, blah, blah, blah, while they continue to surrender and empower the enemy. The elite hope to keep Jews deceived a little longer. The elite have almost completed their plan. THEY KNOW!!! They know that it leads to the dismantling of Israel. They know that Israel can’t survive with its heartland occupied by a genocidal enemy. But they continue down that path. Why don’t leaders with integrity organize to expose this deception before it’s too late?
Duh??? Why is that? How ridiculous for one side to keep observing an agreement that the other side has defaulted on! Next they will begin negotiations toward an agreement with an entity who has just broken their last agreement. In law you can lose rights by not claiming them. Common sense is not a forte of GOI! So many great opportunities arise out of the PA default that it appears obvious that either the GOI is stupid beyond imagination or has a plan of which no one else is aware. This one PA action could be utilized to legally end Oslo; kick out the PA, PLO and their militias; begin a whole new paradigm of officially repudiating land for peace, the 2 state solution,GOI ban on jewish settlement, make new laws regarding automatic deportation of hostile foreigners(inc WB arabs), overt encouragement of arab emigration; etc.
Then why did they transfer 200 million shekels to the PA 2 days before in an apparently mad frenzy to get them money before Israelis get pissed off.
Israeli govts appear to treat their citizenry with utter contempt relying on the security atmosphere to enable their seemiogly dictatorial and condescending form of govt. Apparently the most far reaching matters of importance are always determined by a couple of people who are temporarily occupying leadership positions without any input from the people.
reaction is apparently all they ever do, however, even that is becoming difficult for them. Perhaps they are not proactive because they have no plans about anything and just wait for the arabs to do things to react about. Now they cant even do that. One can only conclude that the Jews are incompetent, negligent bumbling fools or of such genius that their usual plans of “not doing” are just another expression of zen in action.
Now the negligent GOI, who has never pro actively pursued lawfare(the realm of the famed jewish lawyer) is quaking in fear over their pathetic minuscule adversary taking them to court. they are begging to enter negotiations, how pathetic. Mediocrity, incompetence, negligence, reactive and just plain dumb. It is Israel who all should have been afraid of in the courts, it is Israel who should have pursued jewish legal rights of settlement. But no, the arrogant leaders know better. I hope I am 100% wrong and that they have some brilliant plan.
@ yamit82:
I agree with your whole analysis of Likud, Feiglin, etc.
I am ashamed. Our PM said we would vote to oppose PA bid. Well after coup within the party she has been rolled by leftist MPs so Australia will now be abstaining.
@ Laura:
Laura Said:
From your thoughts to his ears!!
@ Canadian Otter:
The Likud stopped being a right wing even a (right of center) whatever that means political party, the day Begin Caved to Carter and gave up on all of Sinai along with (First time) the precedent of Land for Peace and acceptance of the Political and Non Political population that Jews can be pawns for our politicians to play with and move as it suits them, as it is determined useful by our Lemming politicians.
We have here an anomaly where political leaders are selected by a relatively small group of political insiders and hangers on, with no ideological underpinning their choices are based on self interest, and an even smaller group of political insiders with even stronger selfinterest.
Many Likud supporters who still have nationalist views will elect a Likud leadership with none. A vote for the Likud today is no different than a vote for any party on the left in fact.
This list will not oppose BB any more than the last one did, effectively making BB a one man dictator. The only changes in the current list are Hanegbi and Feiglin everyone else were in the Last Knesset. Hanegbi owes his political career today to BB and will not oppose him and if Feiglin does he will be the lone man out isolated reviled by the party loyalists. It is even possible that Feiglin would have been more effective outside of the Knesset than inside. He will not oppose BB and even if he did he is powerless and will be shut out and ignored even by the media.
The MK’s who did not oppose BB over settlement freeze using Nazi SS to beat Jews in the West Bank, agreeing to 2 state solution, accomodating to Obama more than any foreign leader etc. will not do so in the future.
A vote therefore for the Likud with BB at its head is a vote for the dismantlement of the State of Israel. The only way to beat him is to massively vote for every party to the right of him. Won’t happen but I have a gut feeling this next government won’t last out the year. Events will overtake it.
@ yamit82:
If only we had the kind of Jewish leadership today as they did back in the days when Jewish gangsters threw nazis off of rooftops.
TO SPAM FILTER: You want something offensive, Spam Filter? There is a picture on this link that may offend you. http://israelmatzav.blogspot.ca/2012/11/netanyahu-to-make-adjustments-to-likud.html#links
Anyway, for those who were celebrating Feiglin’s 14th place on the Likud list, the boss had something up his sleeve – again!
Bibi will make ‘adjustments’ to ‘balance’ the Likud slate elected in Sunday’s and Monday’s primary so as to include some of his key confidantes who were shut out, and to make the list less hawkish.
They told you so, Moshe….
Big mouths BB and Lieberman firing blanks again all I can say is that they are both Pathetic.
That protocol had an expiration date of six years and to the best of my knowledge was never officially renewed.
We probably don’t charge them interest either.
Stupid Jews.
Those debts could have and should have been collected on their due dates. We are paying very high rates in part because we are subsidizing the PA. Most Israelis are totally unaware of these facts.
The real reason why our electricity bills are going up
Israel Electric Corp. seeks to raise NIS 1 billion, nets only NIS 738 million
My comment has been censored for moderation. Less than twelve lines long and already self-censored for anything that may offend anyone, anywhere.
Israel is being robbed of its dignity and sovereignty – courtesy of the Israeli government itself. The govt allows countries representing the perpetrators of the Holocaust and their accomplices (the Allies) to run Israel. But much WORSE is the impression that Israelis quietly acquiesce to their government’s pro-Arab policies. This sends a very dangerous message of powerlessness to the world! ~~~ It also places the Canadian government in an uncomfortable position. Canada’s PM personally admonished Abbas of serious consequences if they made their move. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162586
And it goes on top of the latest surrender to the enemy, the Agreement with Hamas, allowing Gazan terrorists to approach the fence with impunity. At least one Gazan slipped unnoticed and attacked a Jewish family in the middle of the night. The IDF is warning the government that it can’t stop all Gazans from crossing the fence. “There are hundreds and possibly thousands of people roaming near the fence, including uniformed Hamas men,” one soldier explained. “They crossed the fence several times and went into our forces’ positions… The forces cannot push them away from the fence because they may not even fire in the air.” http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162599
Annex Area C.
If they go to war crimes trials, then send Israeli commandos to storm the World Court and eliminate the Nazi judges.