War on Christians in the Middle East must be stopped

By Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein

An Islamic court in Shiraz, Iran, has just convicted two men of being infidels. Their crime? Converting to Christianity. The possible sentence? Death. Not too far away in Saudi Arabia, an outraged father recently hacked his own daughter to death for the same “abomination.”

In the daily drumbeat of Mideast news, there is one story of historic proportion that goes nearly unreported: the persecution and systematic destruction in the Islamic world of some of the world’s oldest Christian communities.

Sure, we hear when a Catholic bishop is murdered in Iraq, when machete-armed fanatics attack Egyptian Copt worshipers, or when churches are torched in Hamas-controlled Gaza.

But what about the jailing in Saudi Arabia of foreign workers for holding forbidden Christian prayers? Or the arrest in Pakistan of a Christian man for marrying a Muslim woman? Or the continuing problem of an Islamic educational system that teaches the young that Christians (as well as Jews) are “the descendants of apes and pigs”?

The pattern is nearly the same wherever extremist Islam holds sway. From Bangladesh to Darfur, Christians have become regular targets for Islamic thugs and the governments that back them. Just this month, a Pakistani court upheld the kidnapping, conversion and “marriage” to older Muslim men of two Christian sisters, aged 10 and 13.

Even in lands that are not under orthodox Sharia law, Christian communities feel the pressure of persecution. In constitutionally secular Turkey, a legally recognized Protestant church in the capital of Ankara is under threat of closure by local police.

Many Christians in Islamic lands have become subject to such terror that they are fleeing the homelands their ancestors have known almost since the time of Jesus. Iraq’s Christian sects now feel forced to pray in secret. Others simply leave. Although they comprise less than 4% of Iraq’s population, Iraqi Christians now account for 40% of its refugees.

Lebanon’s once politically powerful Christian community has already shrunk almost beyond recognition. Thirty years ago, Lebanon was 60% Christian; today it is barely 25%. And the growing political power of Iran-backed Hezbollah is encouraging further departures.

Even in the Holy Land, where Jesus walked, there is an increasing Christian exodus from both the West Bank and Gaza. Part of it surely stems from the continuing Palestinian-Israeli conflict. But much of it results from a growing Islamic campaign to force Christians to sell their property and leave.

The only place in the Mideast where Christian communities continue to grow is in the Jewish State of Israel. Israel’s tolerance is logical. What people of faith know the dangers of religious persecution better than the people of Israel – especially those whose families originated in the Islamic world? Between 1948 and 1956 more than 850,000 Jews were forced to flee the Arab lands where their families had lived for centuries.

When, in 2001, Afghan fanatics destroyed two ancient statues of Buddha, the world was shocked. But between 1948 and 1967, when Islamic forces controlled the Holy City of Jerusalem, there was a systematic campaign to erase the historic Jewish presence. Synagogues were destroyed and ancient Jewish gravestones carted away. Even today, the Palestinian Authority denies Israel’s right to consider itself a Jewish state and denies the historic Jewish connection to Jerusalem.

If there is hope for true peace in the Middle East, it won’t simply come from Israeli and Palestinian leaders shaking hands at a formal ceremony. It hinges on extremist Islam reforming its view of others. People of commitment and tolerance all around the world – Christians, Jews, Muslims and others – must speak out loudly and forcefully to prevent the Islamic world’s Christians from suffering the same fate as its now all-but-nonexistent Jewish communities.

Eckstein is founder and president of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews.

September 9, 2008 | 29 Comments »

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29 Comments / 29 Comments

  1. NoName:

    Ted, can you please do something to stop yamit from making such long posts?

    Comment by NoNameDenton — September 10, 2008 @ 4:20 pm

    shh. Don’t make a fuss, the poor guy thinks he is being paid by the word.

  2. War on Christians in the Middle East must be stopped

    Rabbi Eckstein in his own way I suppose does some good for the Jewish people, for me it’s hard to judge. He has bought into the ecumenical relationships with Christians that may or may not be what they appear or at least what they want to project. Here again difficult call from where I sit. !!!

    I do admit to a bias against Palestinian Muslims and anyone else who threatens the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state WITH defensible borders, the only issue I would die for even though I live and vote in the U.S. (another current re-consideration).

    The question might be should we concern ourselves, involve ourselves in the war against the Christians, and finally; do we owe them our concern and involvement?

    From Samson Blinded Sept.7

    To our friends from the left

  3. I am not an observant Jew anymore (though re-considering that lately), but definitely do NOT live my life in any way that can be defined as Chilul Hashem.

    Comment by Birdalone — September 10, 2008 @ 9:57 am

    My intention is not to judge but to point out that a Jew who does not observe Hashem’s commandments is in itself a definition of some level of Chilul Hashem. I can just as easily be referring to myself in my own failures and weaknesses.

  4. RE: #13: Shalom Blandoatmeal: I am a Jewish woman by birth who does not closely follow the interplay between Israpundit commenters, but is a student of history. Came here totally by accident in April because of Bill Levinson’s ‘guilt by association’ attacks on Barack Obama. I come back to see what Ted is posting.

    I am not an observant Jew anymore (though re-considering that lately), but definitely do NOT live my life in any way that can be defined as Chilul Hashem.

    I do admit to a bias against Palestinian Muslims and anyone else who threatens the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state WITH defensible borders, the only issue I would die for even though I live and vote in the U.S. (another current re-consideration).

    Hope you find this answer to your question in comment 13.

  5. Bland: Fixing the Wiring Problem between Your Eyes and Your Brain

    Your problem Bland, I have concluded, must be loose wires between your eyes and your brain which moves you to say:

    What I know of Jews comes mainly from people like you, Shy Guy, Yamit and others here, from observations of the Israeli press, and from contacts with the miniscule Jewish community where I live. I’ve called this one as I see it….that you Jews should unceasingly attack the only people in the world who care about you…..and that the Jews really DO (NOT) care about the continuing persecution of Christians around the world…

    Face it, Bill, every Jew here is an unmitigated bastard, full of hatred for non-Jews.

    I won’t go over the myriad of detailed facts, circumstance and history reported here that you have either overlooked or twisted to interpret what you have read as you have.

    Suffice it to say, concerns with Christianity expressed on these pages have been with respect to those aspects that have weighed against Jews and Judaism, be it the antisemitism of some Christians fostered by their foundational religious writings or the aggressive missionizing performed by some Christians to convert Jews.

    Concern and even antipathy expressed by some Jews for Christians is virtually all directed at Christians whose agenda is anti-Jewish, be it an agenda based on anti-semitism or missionary zeal.

    None of the concerns expressed by me or others can rationally be taken as not generally caring about the welfare of Christians, let alone expressions revealing hatred of non-Jews.

    So what makes you Bland, so irrational on these points you raise?

    Finally, I have two points to make about the point you make about missionizing in your post #18 as follows:

    As for Christian missionary activity, get a life!…..Preaching the gospel is as natural as getting out of bed in the morning, to someone who’s had a life-changing experience through believing it. Some Jews want these people to go around with duct tape on their mouths: it doesn’t work. They will use sign language, tap their feet or blink their eyes.

    My two points are:

    1. No Jew is asking Christian missionaries to go around with duct tape on their mouths. They are however demanding that Christian missionaries recognize that predatory missionary prosletyzing activities based on their own missionary zeal and sense of entitlement by virtue of their religion and beliefs, directed at converting Jews is per se, disrespectful of Judaism and Jewish belief and also disrespectful and insensitive to Jewish sensitivities and sensibilities.

    Christian missionaries exhibit all the signs of a massive arrogant superiority complex in terms of believing, not only that their religion is the only true religion, but that God gives them the right and obligation to convert Jews to their one true Christian religion.

    For those reasons, I and many Jews are telling Christian missionaries to back off and stop those predatory and aggressive activities that harm Jews individually and as a society.

    It is to those Christians I and a number of others on this blog have expressed our objections to in a number of ways, some in milder language, others in more crude and harsh language, but regardless of the style of expression, the message to these Christian missionaries is the same. Get out of the faces of Jews!

    2. There are 2.6 billion Christians in the world. A very great many millions of them are disaffected or disengaged Christians or Christians turned atheist.

    If Christian missionaries want a full time job that could go on almost forever, they should forget about converting Jews and instead direct all their efforts towards bringing these disaffected and disengaged Christians back into the Christian fold.

    Since the conclusions your brain has come to are irrationally out of synch with what you have read, I must therefore conclude there is a wiring problem between your eyes and your brain.

    I hope Bland you can now see the huge difference between what you see and what has registered in your brain, think it through and fix the problem with the wires between your eyes and your brain.

  6. …I can always walk into a DNC corporation, experiencing downright HATRED of Christians, especially white male Republican Christans and it kind of mirrors what Islamists do to Christians in Sudan, Darfur, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and really, any country claiming a Hitler style regime of absolute HATRED of anyone or anything “Christian” or “Jewish” but love for anything “anti-Christian” or “anti-Israel.”…

    Comment by Michael Sunstar — September 9, 2008 @ 9:59 pm

    Hi, Michael.

    I left off the “beating up Jesus” remark. Remember that it was Roman soldiers who beat up Jesus, treating him with no more or less cruelty than they meted out to all Jews at their mercy. Jews have treated one another with incredible cruelty, even crucifixion; but they didn’t hang up Jesus. It’s a cruel world, all around.

    As for your remarks about the flat-out hatred people in the DNC and other leftist groups have for Christians AND Jews (read, “Israelis”, or whatever they want to call them), you have pointed out the common cause we all have here. I’ve said some nasty things here, and I came back mainly to say,

    TRUCE!

    without being specific.

    By the way, I got the details a little scrambled in relating the story of my friend’s grandparents. Actually, the village suffered THREE massacres, and I don’t know if the Persians or Kurds were involved. Two of the surviving brothers, Andrew and Benjamin Urshan, survived a 300 mile death march that killed 150,000 of their fellow Assyrian Christians. They went on to be important leaders of the “Jesus Only” Pentecostal movement. The article is at

    http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/archives/1999/may3_1999.htm#Anchor-THE-10888

    Of course, the spirit of those massacred innocents lives on in the millions of Pentecostals, all over the world, who worship God today because of the Urshans. Someone commented, many hundreds of years ago, “the blood of the martyrs is seed.” Jewish martyrs, Christian martyrs: The result is the same. (“Shahids”, by the way, are not martyrs by any stretch of the imagination. I assume you already know that.)

    Thanks for the post.

  7. When you lived among “us”? Who the hell are you talking about?

    I’m not a Christian. We eat kosher, light candles on Shabbat and to the barachah before eating. I haven’t see the inside of a church for years (except when I attended a very Jewish shul for a year, which met in a church hall because it didn’t have its own building. We used to turn Mary’s statue so she faced the wall and didn’t get embarrassed by us), and that was to attend a friend’s funeral. I was a Christian years ago, but I don’t rememeber any Kahane Chai crazies among us.


    I do know one Jewish fellow, a Levite, who’s trying to restore Judaism to its First Century character. I seriously doubt that you’re him, because he’s really a decent fellow. He used to be on the radical side, according to my rabbi.

    Oat I don’t care what your religious beliefs are it’s your personal business except when you go public with them like here on Israpundit. You could believe in the Gods of Hamburgers and Hotdogs for all I care, and your claimed Jewish practices really move me to tears but even here its your own affair. There is no way any real Jew with minimal knowledge of Judaism can accept you as being Jewish even if you were a saint and observed most of the mitzvot. If you want to be a Jew you must first reject your God on a stick and enter into Halachicly accepted conversion. Then you would be Jewish; as Jewish if not more so than any other Jew on the planet past and present. This also is your business and your personal choice.
    I really don’t want to nit pick with you over beliefs but logic dictates that anyone who believes in Jesus and accepts the teachings of Jesus is as Christian as the POPE! Mormons and 7th Day Adventists consider themselves Christians although Most other Christians might argue the point. Who am I to offer an opinion here and I really don’t care . I care about Jews and Judaism. Therefore when a believer of Jesus who light candles on the Sabbath ( a rabbinic tradition) and calls himself a Jew I have to take exception to such claim. You are most welcome to join us though but only as I have just described. You could though become a Noahide gentile and have a good chance on getting to the next world. Belief in false gods gets you to Sunstars Lake of Fire.

    Yamit, this is typical paranoid Jewish hype. I painted the Jewish people in less than glowing terms, so you saw fit to talk about what a threat Christians are to Jews. In any context, this makes for sickening reading; but in this context what you are doing is setting up a moral equivalency between the missionary activities of Christians and the barbaric, inhuman treatment Christians receive around the world. That’s what I called you on.

    As for Christian missionary activity, get a life! There are some Christians who would never tell a soul about what they believe, because I wonder whether they know themselves. Those who are enthusiastic about their religion, though, won’t shut up. Maybe you’ve never met an enthusiastic Jew, so you can’t relate to this. Preaching the gospel is as natural as getting out of bed in the morning, to someone who’s had a life-changing experience through believing it. Yamit, this is typical paranoid Jewish hype. I painted the Jewish people in less than glowing terms, so you saw fit to talk about what a threat Christians are to Jews. In any context, this makes for sickening reading; but in this context what you are doing is setting up a moral equivalency between the missionary activities of Christians and the barbaric, inhuman treatment Christians receive around the world. That’s what I called you on.

    As for Christian missionary activity, get a life! There are some Christians who would never tell a soul about what they believe, because I wonder whether they know themselves. Those who are enthusiastic about their religion, though, won’t shut up. Maybe you’ve never met an enthusiastic Jew, so you can’t relate to this. Preaching the gospel is as natural as getting out of bed in the morning, to someone who’s had a life-changing experience through believing it. Some Jews want these people to go around with duct tape on their mouths: it doesn’t work. They will use sign language, tap their feet or blink their eyes.

    Instead of all this paranoia, I would like to see some Jews with a solid faith in their God. How big is your God anyway? Is there something wrong with Him, that you don’t want to tell anyone about him? Why aren’t the Jews preaching THEIR gospel like the Christians?

    Instead of all this paranoia, I would like to see some Jews with a solid faith in their God. How big is your God anyway? Is there something wrong with Him, that you don’t want to tell anyone about him? Why aren’t the Jews preaching THEIR gospel like the Christians?

    I have been totally consistent in my opposition to Christianity especially missionaries who target Jews , (others I couldn’t care less, convert away. It has nothing to do with your anti semetic remarks.My views are not paranoia but even a paranoiac is sometimes right. I can supply you with pages of statics which support my contentions and positions, just ask for links and I will supply. I certainly have no problem with any people Christian Muslim Buddhist Hindu and Atheist , as long as they do not impose themselves on me and other Jews. Leave us be and I am all for peace and Harmony, respect begets respect, and the converse is also applicable. No Jew or Jewish text in any form advocates Jews to incite violence against Christians, I see no Jews running off to Indiana or Detroit inciting against Christian beliefs of Virgin birth, or resurrection. All we ask is to be left alone to work out our own problems from Christians. If that is impossible we got big problems. A chosen people by God is to be a Light Unto the Nations by example. since half the worlds population have accepted at least partially the Jewish world view, we seem to be fulfilling our obligations and purpose.

    I agree with you in that the problems and suffering of non Jews while deplorable must take second place to Jewish interests. My rule of thumb for Jews are Jews first than others. It makes no sense for jews to take on the problems of the Gentiles when ignoring the problems of the Jews. Think of it in a narrow family context. Family before strangers. This does not reject concern only actions. We have over 2 million poor here in Israel but many Jews give time and money to non Jewish causes and charities while ignoring our own. This I appose, and its not that I don’t care, I just prioritize. Israel has taken in over ten thousand refugees from Sudan, How many has Christian America or anybody else for that matter. So before shooting off you bigoted big mouth get your facts right first.

    Some Jews want these people to go around with duct tape on their mouths: it doesn’t work. They will use sign language, tap their feet or blink their eyes.

    I don’t care what they want I care what I want and it isn’t them. Lets make a deal they stay away from us and we won’t chop their heads off! don’t complain later if they can’t control themselves.

    Mere belief in the principles of Judaism does not make one a Jew. Similarly, non-adherence by one who is Jewish to Jewish principles of faith does not make one lose one’s Jewish status. However, the Israeli legal definition of a Jew excludes those who have joined other religions.

    In the last half of the 20th century, two theologically liberal (primarily American) Jewish groups Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism have allowed people who do not meet these criteria to define themselves as Jews. They no longer require converts to follow traditional Jewish procedures of conversion, and they accept a person as a Jew even if their mother is non-Jewish, so long as the father is a Jew.

    This has thus resulted in a serious schism among the Jewish people; today many Reform Jewish and secular Jewish-Americans consider themselves Jews, although they are not considered Jewish by Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, and even by many Reform Jews outside of the United States.

    Some Reform Jews view Judaism as a religion alone, and thus they view Jews who convert to another faith as non-Jews. In contrast, traditional rabbinic Judaism views Judaism as a peoplehood, and not merely a religion. In this view, those who leave Judaism by converting to another religion are still seen as Jewish people; however, they are seen as apostates who by their actions have chosen to remove themselves from the Judaic religion.

    According to Jewish law, Jewishness is determined by the mother; thus the immediate male descendants of a female Jewish apostate are still considered Jewish; all her female descendants, but only in an unbroken female line of descent, and their immediate male children are also considered Jewish. While most of these descendants probably would not be practicing Judaism, or in many cases aware of their Jewishness, their status as Jews technically still would be in effect. As such, all Jewish denominations welcome the return of any of these people back to the Jewish community; such people would be considered Jews in good standing without the need for a formal conversion. Generally, people who have been raised as non-Jews would be expected to make some sort of public sign that they are returning to Judaism, for instance engaging in a course in Jewish education, joining a synagogue, having an adult Bar Mitzvah ceremony, etc. If not circumcised, males are required to have a circumcision.

    Biblical law mandates the death penalty for 36 offenses. These include a broad range of crimes from murder to kidnapping, adultery to incest, certain forms of rape, idolatrous worship and public incitement to apostasy, from disrespecting parents to desecrating the Sabbath.

    Rabbinic interpretations that effectively abolished the death penalty centuries ago. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:5 stresses the importance of presenting completely accurate testimony in capital cases, for any mistakes or falsehoods could result in the shedding of innocent blood. If any perjury were to cause an execution, “the blood of the accused and his unborn offspring stain the perjurer forever.”

    The passage goes on to liken wrongful executions to Cain killing Abel, concluding that – it is for this reason that God created only one human in the beginning, a token that he who destroys one life, it is as though he had destroyed all humankind; whereas he who preserves one life, it is as though he preserved all humanity.”

    In another passage, the rabbis show distaste for executions. “Said one: The Sanhedrin (Supreme Court) that puts to death one person in seven years is termed tyrannical. Rabbi Eleazar Ben Azariah says, ‘One person in seventy years.’ Rabbi Tarffon and Rabbi Akiba say, ‘If we had been in the Sanhedrin, no one would have ever been put to death.’ Rabban Simeon Ben Gamaliel says, ‘They would have thereby increased the shedders of blood in Israel (Mishnah Makkot 1:10).’”

    While the last line indicates a belief that the death penalty, if carried out judiciously, can be a deterrent, prevailing Jewish thought in every movement has followed the previous opinions, which either oppose the death penalty outright, or allow for it only in the most extreme — once in seventy years — circumstances. Following this line of thinking, the major Jewish movements in the United States all have specific policy supporting either abolition of the death penalty, or a moratorium on its use.

    WE CAN ALWAYS START MAKING EXCEPTIONS

  8. If they beat up and crucified Jesus, we can’t expect anything more than being spit on, mocked, hated, rejected, and cast out, especially by the DNC! I can always walk into a DNC corporation, experiencing downright HATRED of Christians, especially white male Republican Christans and it kind of mirrors what Islamists do to Christians in Sudan, Darfur, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and really, any country claiming a Hitler style regime of absolute HATRED of anyone or anything “Christian” or “Jewish” but love for anything “anti-Christian” or “anti-Israel.” Time and time again, HATERS are those who HATE the God of Israel first – then, His people who love and respect Him. It is only natural for those who follow Hitler’s Doctrines of Evolution that only the strongest and fittest should survive that the ELITIST DNC would follow their god of passionate hatred until the whole world is set on fire by their anger, accusations, and judgments against God’s family. God’s family usually makes every attempt to make peace with Satans family, but Satan’s family usually hates us enough to follow principles that provoke anger, hate, violence, war, and death – all the opposites of what God’s family is trying to accomplish – therefore, it is only natural for God’s family to use tactics that the devil uses against us to prove a point – WE ALWAYS HAD MORE POWER THAN YOU DO – we just didn’t go there in flexing it quite the way you have against us on earth – and because you just WENT THERE in your provocation, we must return your principles, your ideas, your philosophies, your wars and rumors of wars, accusations, judgments, fights, and everything you throw at us right back at you! We can only defend ourselves and there is nothing wrong with fighting back when granted the opportunity to do so, without being under DURESS. It’s amazing what we can do when we’re not under the duress of MONEY and bureaucratic/democratic red tape, stained with the blood of our martyrs, who, continue to die today, because of HATRED towards Israel’s God, towards Israel, and towards all who THINK DIFFERENTLY from the pagan/Islamist unity.

  9. Hi, Yamit.

    Oat don’t pick on me, I don’t know many Christians these days, but when I lived among you some were among my closet friends

    When you lived among “us”? Who the hell are you talking about? I’m not a Christian. We eat kosher, light candles on Shabbat and to the barachah before eating. I haven’t see the inside of a church for years (except when I attended a very Jewish shul for a year, which met in a church hall because it didn’t have its own building. We used to turn Mary’s statue so she faced the wall and didn’t get embarrassed by us), and that was to attend a friend’s funeral. I was a Christian years ago, but I don’t rememeber any Kahane Chai crazies among us.

    I do know one Jewish fellow, a Levite, who’s trying to restore Judaism to its First Century character. I seriously doubt that you’re him, because he’s really a decent fellow. He used to be on the radical side, according to my rabbi.

    …one or two even saved my life, I owe them and yes individually many if not most on an individual basis are the salt of the earth. But then there is the other side like our good friend matt sieger, and people like you.

    I never heard of Matt Sieger. If you don’t like me, that’s your problem

    …I said here may times that I do not hate Christians or Muslims of whom I have some good friends… yada yada.

    What you’re trying to tell me, I suppose, is that you really DO sympathize with persecuted Christians, contrary to what I said at the first. If you do, you’re a rarity among Jews; and even in your case I find it hard to glean this out of what you say. It’s like the anti-Zionist who claims that “some of his best friends are Jewish”, then goes on to call for the destruction of the Jewish homeland. In some of your posts, you simply condemned all Christians and all Americans as enemies of Israel, without exception. As an American, of course I take that as a personal insult; but your attitude hurts Am Israel more than it hurts me. Israel need friends, and all you seem to be doing is making enemies.

    Concerning the “love” of other Jews for Christians, especially Israeli Jews, I just haven’t seen any interest among the Jewish people in the concerns of Christians. I saw the Sudan thing developing. You know, Christians have been persecuted in Sudan for decades, but I never heard anyone from Israel sounding out a cry of protest. After the Oslo War began, though, and Israel was being singled out as an “oppressive occupier”, There was some propaganda yardage to be gained by pointing out the fact that a Moslem nation (Sudan) was being an oppressive occupier of the Christians in the South in a brutal and obvious way. Heck, this has been going on since 1956. Where have you all been? I am very skeptical when I read about Jewish “sympathy” in situations like this. As far as I can see, the Israeli Jews are a self-absorbed people, like most people the world over.

    The Jewish fools don’t yet get it, most of organized Christianity are targeting the Jews, the protestants are after our souls and wish to Destroy the Jewish people by subversion and assimilation and the Vatican who support or existential enemies in order to destroy us physically. Now I differentiate Both churches from their rank and file and certainly what is called nominal non church going Christians but there are certainly enough out there for some of us to take notice and start to really feel their threatening advances. They are very committed in their separate endeavors and well financed, way above what we can raise to counter them.

    Recognition of the threats are a basic requirement in countering them, but up to now nada!

    Comment by yamit82 — September 9, 2008 @ 1:55 pm

    Yamit, this is typical paranoid Jewish hype. I painted the Jewish people in less than glowing terms, so you saw fit to talk about what a threat Christians are to Jews. In any context, this makes for sickening reading; but in this context what you are doing is setting up a moral equivalency between the missionary activities of Christians and the barbaric, inhuman treatment Christians receive around the world. That’s what I called you on.

    As for Christian missionary activity, get a life! There are some Christians who would never tell a soul about what they believe, because I wonder whether they know themselves. Those who are enthusiastic about their religion, though, won’t shut up. Maybe you’ve never met an enthusiastic Jew, so you can’t relate to this. Preaching the gospel is as natural as getting out of bed in the morning, to someone who’s had a life-changing experience through believing it. Some Jews want these people to go around with duct tape on their mouths: it doesn’t work. They will use sign language, tap their feet or blink their eyes.

    Instead of all this paranoia, I would like to see some Jews with a solid faith in their God. How big is your God anyway? Is there something wrong with Him, that you don’t want to tell anyone about him? Why aren’t the Jews preaching THEIR gospel like the Christians?

    I’m a son of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Yamit, despite someting you said about the Jews having control of God’s exclusive “club” and being able to set the rules about who gets “in” and who’s “out”. Do you know why I eat kosher, and light candles on Shabbat? Do you think I want to be Jewish like you? FORGET IT! I’m honoring my ancestors, and the covenant God made with them. I’m proud of my ancestors, even if you don’t want me to be, and I’m not afraid or ashamed to tell everyone about it. I’m not afraid of Christians or Jews or anyone else sneaking around and “stealing my faith”; because I know my God and am kept by Him. It’s a real shame, when I see Jews who don’t think the same way.

    You were making distinctions between this Christian and that Christian. Which Christians do you think are being the most persecuted? Is it Presbyterian ministerial students in Scotland, debating whether or not God exists? Is it Jeremiah Wright and his yoo rah rah hate America peanut gallery? Or is it Christians in the “mission fields”, whose faith stands out like a sore thumb in a sea of people who don’t like them? Those are the people being talked about here.

    My friend’s grandfather, who was fortunate enough to be in America when the Kurds went through his hometown and massacred all his relatives in Iran: Do you think he was one of your “nice” Christian friends? Or one of those goddawful missionaries? Guess. I don’t remember all the details on him, but his cousin also escaped the rampage in the old country and became the founding of the United Pentecostal Church. They are a modalist, “Jesus Only” church, which isn’t surprizing: Even in Iran, the Assyrians were considered heretics because they would not accept the doctrine that Mary was God’s mother. We’re talking about some doctrinally headstrong people, who are convinced they have the green light from God: I’m sure they preach to every Jew they come across, as they do to every Christian and everyone else.

    When you criticize these people for their preaching of the gospel (as they understand it), you’re effectively taking the side of those who massacred them; because they didn’t massacre them on account of their looks, or their speech, or their smell. They massacred them because they stood for a religion that they (the Kurds) saw as a threat to their own feeble faith, even though the Kurds outnumber the Assyrians by over 100:1. The analogy to Israeli Jews and Christian “Messianic” preachers there is obvious, except that Jews in Israel have held back from outright massacres. Their persecution of these people, nonetheless, is relentless.

    I’ve said my piece. To wrap it all up,

    1. I was and still am skeptical about the sincerity of Jews who claim to be sympathetic with Christian suffering.

    2. Far from being sympathetic, some Jews actually take part in the persecution.

    3. I’m not a Christian, nor a Messianic Jew, nor any other category you might want to pin on me. I’m a son of Jacob,and not ashamed of him or of his God; that’s about it.

    4. Do what you want with the rest. Why should I care?

  10. tikhon,

    Samuel Fistel has hit the nail on the head and yamit82 needs to increase his dosage of chlorpromazine.
    Orthodox Christianity is the original Christianity and the only authentic Christianity.

    thanks for the suggestion, I stopped taking CPZ,(Thorazine) for hiccups because I developed chronic constipation so I used paper bag method instead.

    Orthodox Christianity is the original Christianity and the only authentic Christianity.

    We should care which one is authentic?

  11. oat:

    every inhabitant had been savagely killed by the Moslems. The fact that people like Yamit make excuses for such behavior just nauseates me.

    What the hell are you talking about here? I draw a line when you attribute to me things I never said or even addressed. Soren mentioned it a few months back and I posed the question as to if the Christians don’t care why should the Jews? That was more or less the extent to which I ever addressed this subject. After I received sorens reasonable and if I may say so rational explanation and links I agreed with her. I am against any people or faith being discriminated against murdered etc. I am for live and let live for everyone and expect the same courtesy in return. The only exception is in the Land of Israel and here we have our own laws and culture that require the same respect by non citizens as you would require from me in America, Canada or any other country and culture that I might visit. , Generally outside of Israel I am extremely liberal minded, I certainly deplore violence of any kind and have a love your neighbor attitude.

  12. Samuel Fistel has hit the nail on the head and yamit82 needs to increase his dosage of chlorpromazine.
    Orthodox Christianity is the original Christianity and the only authentic Christianity.

  13. And if you protest that I’m full of baloney, that the Jews really DO care about the continuing persecution of Christians around the world, I suggest you simply look at the comments on this post — especially Yamit’s fiery attacks, adding insult to injury.

    Face it, Bill, every Jew here is an unmitigated bastard, full of hatred for non-Jews.

    Oat don’t pick on me, I don’t know many Christians these days, but when I lived among you some were among my closet friends, one or two even saved my life, I owe them and yes individually many if not most on an individual basis are the salt of the earth. But then there is the other side like our good friend matt sieger, and people like you. I said here may times that I do not hate Christians or Muslims of whom I have some good friends. I can’t say he same thing about Peskin and a few others but think of that as an intra family thing, hell I can’t stand being in the same room with many of my direct family members but family over strangers and tribe over non tribal members. That’s the way it works also with the Arabs by the way. I suppose many tribal ethnicities as well. Our big problem is with Christianity and those adherents of that religion who were responsible for Jews being 14 million today and not 2-3 hundred million. A small cravat, of no consequence to you and I am sure to many Jews today who would feel equally uncomfortable with the likes of me but that’s their problem.
    Today I may be to some of you an irritant, tomorrow I will be nicer but you will still be an antisemite, thats the difference.

  14. Shalom Birdalone

    I just noticed your post, after the flames from Shy Guy and his dingbat friends. You actually seem like you’re a human being. If you’re Jewish, please tell me so, so my attitude towards my kinsmen can get some uplift. Scum like Shy Guy, yamit, narvey et al are a blight on the race.

    I can sympathize with you (and with Ted Belman, who was decent enough to post this) about the Iraqi Christians. A very close friend of mine, recently deceased, is descended on his mother’s side from Assyrian Christians from Iran. His grandfather came to this country (the US) as a boy or young man; then returned after WWI to visit his home village. There was no more village — every inhabitant had been savagely killed by the Moslems. The fact that people like Yamit make excuses for such behavior just nauseates me.

    Forgive me for fuming in my post to you. There are some Jews here who are a chilul hashem — which I hope you know what it means, because I sincerely hope that a good man like you is Jewish.

  15. I haven’t seen much sympathy among Jews for the plight of Christians. For Moslems and Atheists, yes. This is a first, Ted.

    No, its not a first. There have been a number of articles posted on Israpundit about the plight of Christians in the muslim world.

  16. Narvey I called Oat antsemtic way back and was rewarded by being called Nazi and Brown shirt etc. Believe me when I say I have an instinct well honed.

    Oil or Jews?

    By coincidence, this morning I was sent the following editorial. On reading this post and Keelie’s comment, I thought it was appropos to this post and so I am sharing it with you.

    EDITORIAL: “PULL UP IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE”

    The following appeared in the Colorado Springs Gazette-Telegraph. It was written by William Aiken. Neither the Colorado Springs Gazette-Telegraph nor Mr. Aiken are Jewish.

    It was Mr. Aiken’s comment on a slogan which appeared during the recent flurry of Nazi scrawlings on synagogues and other public buildings.

    It was the Gazette-Telegraph ownership titled “Reflections on the Revival of a Slogan”…”JEWS GO HOME”

    “Well, this is nothing new. Never in the past have you ever taken this gentle suggestion to move on.

    But, Heaven forbid, suppose just this once you thought that this expression of a few sick people, actually expressed the conviction of all the people in this wonderful land of ours and all of you started to pack your bags and leave for parts unknown.

    However, just before you go, would you do me a favor?

    Would you leave your formula for the Salk and the Sabin Vaccine with me before you depart? You wouldn’t be so heartless as to let my children contract polio?

    And, would you please leave your knack for government and politics, science and technology, and literature, and good food, and fun and love, good films, and plays, music, dance, and all those things so useful and enjoyable, and would you please leave with me the secret of your drive to succeed? Please?

    And please, have pity on us, show us the secret of how to develop more such geniuses as Einstein, Freud, Nostradamus, Steinmetz, Spinoza and oh so many others who have helped us all. After all, we owe you for the A-Bomb, most of our rocket research and perhaps the fact that we are alive today, instead of looking up from our chains and from our graves to see an ageing, happy Hitler drive by slowly in one of our Cadillacs.

    On your way out, Jews, will you do me just one more favor?

    Will you please drive by my house and pick me up also? I’m just not sure I could live
    too well in a land where you were not around to give us as much as you have given us. If you ever have to leave, love goes with you , democracy goes with you, everything my buddies and I fought for in World War II goes with you. God goes with you too.

    Just pull up in front of my house, slow down and honk, because, so help me, I’m going with you too.”

    Comment by Bill Narvey CANADA — July 4, 2006 @ 9:59 pm

  17. Remember, I was not brought up anywhere near Jews, nor have I had much contact with them.

    every Jew here is an unmitigated bastard, full of hatred for non-Jews.

    Comment by BlandOatmeal — September 9, 2008 @ 3:17 pm

    Checkmate.

  18. Bland, I do not go so far as Shy Guy to accuse you of antisemitism…You used the word “wierd”, but that word applies to you…

    Comment by Bill Narvey — September 9, 2008 @ 9:17 am

    Am I supposed to be flattered by your relatively “mild” use of insults? I’ve only posted what I’ve seen happening. Remember, I was not brought up anywhere near Jews, nor have I had much contact with them. What I know of Jews comes mainly from people like you, Shy Guy, Yamit and others here, from observations of the Israeli press, and from contacts with the miniscule Jewish community where I live. I’ve called this one as I see it. If the truth hurts, and you have to resort to epithets like “Anti-Semite” and “weird” to try to discredit what I have plainly seen with truly unbiased eyes, then you need to examine your own hearts. The Days of Awe are coming up, which would be a good time to do this.

    As for my use of the word “weird”, I still think it’s weird, that you Jews should unceasingly attack the only people in the world who care about you. And if you protest that I’m full of baloney, that the Jews really DO care about the continuing persecution of Christians around the world, I suggest you simply look at the comments on this post — especially Yamit’s fiery attacks, adding insult to injury.

    Face it, Bill, every Jew here is an unmitigated bastard, full of hatred for non-Jews.

  19. Samuel,

    And the pope, the infallible representative of jesus on earth, sees no evil and speaks no evil. He is happy to see the orthodox christians in the middle east destroyed, and does not want to antagonize the muslims against the few middle eastern catholics remaining. And he is willing to let the muslims destroy the middle eastern christians altogether, as long as the muslims get around to finally destroying Jewish Israel.

    The Jewish fools don’t yet get it, most of organized Christianity are targeting the Jews, the protestants are after our souls and wish to Destroy the Jewish people by subversion and assimilation and the Vatican who support or existential enemies in order to destroy us physically. Now I differentiate Both churches from their rank and file and certainly what is called nominal non church going Christians but there are certainly enough out there for some of us to take notice and start to really feel their threatening advances. They are very committed in their separate endeavors and well financed, way above what we can raise to counter them.

    Recognition of the threats are a basic requirement in countering them, but up to now nada!

  20. The Western sell-out of Middle Eastern Christians:

    The pagan Greeks in the ancient middle east invented (orthodox) christianity 100 years after Jewish Jesus lived, as a means of regaining superiority over their Roman conquerors. The Romans responded 300 years later by claiming that they were the true universal (catholic) christians, and not the orthodox (the original christians).

    Right before Muhammad arrived, Turkey, Syria, Israel, Egypt and all of north Africa were 100% christian.

    Now they are 95% muslim. The orthodox christians in Lebanon even converted to catholicism during the crusades so that the pope and France would save them. Now they have been marginalized to insignificance. The christians in Iraq have been almost totally ethnically cleansed while America’s Army watched (they were terrified of pissing the muslim savages off even more, and making the Army’s presence in Iraq even more miserable).

    When did the “christian” west abandon the middle eastern christians? When they abandoned their own christianity. After WWII, the western atheistic liberals declared that Hitler = white male christian nationalism, and began a relentless campaign to neutralize christianity by demonizing it, and simultaneously glorifying islam as a counterweight to christianity. This required apologizing for all muslim atrocities and purposely suppressing their publication. This was coupled with secular and atheistic DeGaulle’s decision to ally with the muslims against America, and to enlarge France’s power by forming the EU. We see the fruits of this today by Sarkozy kissing Syria’s ass while urging Israel to commit suicide.

    And the pope, the infallible representative of jesus on earth, sees no evil and speaks no evil. He is happy to see the orthodox christians in the middle east destroyed, and does not want to antagonize the muslims against the few middle eastern catholics remaining. And he is willing to let the muslims destroy the middle eastern christians altogether, as long as the muslims get around to finally destroying Jewish Israel.

  21. Bland, I do not go so far as Shy Guy to accuse you of antisemitism. I do strongly take issue with your view however that “Jews pretty much only care for Jews”. and your further statement, that “Christians are the only ones they (ied. Jews hate). Maybe that’s because Christians are the only ones who give a hoot about the Jews.”

    To say this, you have singluarly focussed on what a few Jews might say to the exclusion of what the majority of the worldwide Jewish community says and does about caring for and respecting the rights and human rights of people regardless of their faith and ethnic background.

    You used the word “wierd”, but that word applies to you. Hopefully you will take a moment to reflect on just how wrong you were in your posts #1 and #2 and have the guts to say so in your next post.

  22. The near-absence of Western media coverage beyond the Christian Science Monitor on the plight of Christians in the Middle East and other Islamic countries has been puzzling, though not as puzzling as the near silence of Christian leaders, including the Pope and Eastern Orthodox prelates.

    My original (and ongoing) support for the change in Iraq strategy that included the surge of U.S. military troops was based primarily on my horror at the threat of near-genocide of ancient Iraqi Christian communities with a precipitous U.S. pullout. I felt like the only registered Democrat in the U.S. who felt this moral responsibility at the time. I still think Iraqi Christians should be relocated to Southern Lebanon and Golan Heights as a buffer, and some of the Egyptian Copts (there are eight million Copts) to Gaza – think of it as an exchange program. The Shi’a of Southern Lebanon can move to Shi’a southern Iraq, and the Gaza Palestinians to Egypt.

    It should be noted that Syria and Jordan continue to be relatively secure countries for Arab Christians.

    Thank you for this post – and I recommend reading William Dalrymple’s 1997 “From the Holy Mountain: A Journey Among the Christians of the Middle East”. Secular Turkey was the first, expelling their Syriac Christians in the 1920’s, along with an ongoing government effort to erase any archeological legacy of Armenian Christians.

  23. Oh, there was Israeli support of the Christians in the buffer zone in S. Lebanon. But that was the secular Israeli government, not the Jews; and they later deserted them, leaving them at the mercy of Hizbullah. no, Jews pretty much only care for Jews — and Moslems and Atheists. Maybe Tibetans too. In fact, it seems that Christians are the only ones they hate. Maybe that’s because Christians are th only ones who give a hoot about the Jews.

    It’s just weird.