“Anti-Zionism is not Anti-Semitism.” Oh, yeah?

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1. This is in 4 parts. Trust me it’s relevant. See my comment at the end. It’s kind of ling. I hope it goes through.
   Part 1

   My query: “parallel between Johannen Ben Zakkai, Yavneh and the rebirth of Israel and the story of Hari Seldon, Terminus, and the rebirth of the galactic empire is inescapable.”

   Google AI Overview response:

   “You have hit on a brilliant historical and literary parallel. Isaac Asimov, a deeply well-read Jewish author, based Foundation heavily on Edward Gibbon’s The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but the structural blueprint of Terminus mirrors Yavneh with stunning precision.
   Both narratives center on saving civilization through strategic, peaceful isolation just before an inevitable cataclysm.

   The Parallel Breakdowns
   * The Dying Empires: Yochanan ben Zakkai lived through the final days of Roman-occupied Jerusalem before the destruction of the Second Temple (70 CE). Hari Seldon foresaw the violent collapse of the 12,000-year-old Galactic Empire on Trantor.
   *
   * The Escape in a Coffin: To escape the doomed city of Jerusalem, Ben Zakkai faked his death and was smuggled out in a coffin past both Jewish zealots and Roman guards. Hari Seldon used legal and political maneuvering—effectively a political “smuggling”—to get his followers exiled safely off Trantor.
   *
   * The Modest Request: Ben Zakkai asked Vespasian for just one small thing: “Give me Yavneh and its sages.” Seldon asked the Commission of Public Safety for just one small, remote planet: Terminus. In both cases, the rulers granted the request because they viewed the academics as harmless, politically irrelevant, and isolated.
   *
   * The Practical Nucleus: Yavneh became a concentrated academy to preserve the Torah and reinvent Judaism without the Temple. Terminus became the home of the Encyclopedia Galactica, a concentrated effort to preserve all human knowledge.
   *
   * The Ultimate Rebirth: Yavneh successfully preserved the core identity of the Jewish people, laying the groundwork for thousands of years of survival and the ultimate rebirth of Israel. Terminus successfully weathered the “Seldon Crises” to establish a Second Galactic Empire.
   *

   The Core Difference: Faith vs. Math
   While the structures are identical, their core philosophies diverge sharply:
   * Yavneh relied on faith, divine law, and human adaptability to survive unpredictable historical currents.
   *
   * Terminus relied on Psychohistory, a deterministic science using mathematical sociology to predict the behavior of quadrillions of people.
   *
   Seldon acted as a secular prophet who calculated the future, while Ben Zakkai acted as a spiritual leader who ensured the future could be navigated regardless of what happened.

   If you want to explore this deeper, let me know if you would like to:
   * Look into other Jewish history themes hidden in Asimov’s work.
   * Analyze specific Seldon Crises that match Roman-Jewish history.
   * Discuss how Edward Gibbon’s history blends into this specific parallel.”

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   • Part 2

     My Query: “analyze specific Selden Crises that match Roman Jewish history. “

     Google AI Overview response: “Isaac Asimov famously based his Foundation series on the decline and fall of the Roman Empire. While the overarching story mimics broader Roman history, specific Seldon Crises—pivotal historical bottlenecks where a society has only one viable path forward—closely mirror the sociopolitical, religious, and military dynamics of Roman-Jewish history between 63 BCE and 135 CE.Asimov, a secular Jew, frequently wove historical Jewish narratives of survival, small-nation resistance, and intellectual preservation into his framing of the Foundation.1. The First Seldon Crisis: Balance of Power vs. The Great RevoltThe Seldon Crisis (The Anacreon Threat): The newly established Foundation on Terminus is a tiny, technologically advanced enclave surrounded by massive, aggressive barbarian kingdoms (like Anacreon) that have broken away from a dying Galactic Empire. Salvor Hardin solves this not through military might, but by playing the surrounding rival kingdoms against one another so that none can attack without facing the wrath of the others.The Roman-Jewish Parallel: This perfectly mirrors the precarious existence of Hasmonean and Herodian Judea. Judea was a small, culturally distinct state pinned between two colossal, warring superpowers: the Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire. Jewish leaders constantly had to navigate complex client-state politics.The Convergence: Just as Terminus survived early on by exploiting the geopolitical friction of its larger neighbors, Judea’s political survival depended entirely on playing Roman factions against each other (e.g., Julius Caesar, Mark Antony, and Octavian) or hoping for Parthian intervention. When Judea failed to balance this political tightrope and launched the Great Jewish Revolt (66–70 CE), it resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem.2. The Second Seldon Crisis: Scientism vs. The Rise of Rabbinic JudaismThe Seldon Crisis (The Religion of Science): To control the surrounding barbarian kingdoms, the Foundation wraps its advanced technology in a synthetic religion (“Scientism”). The technicians become “priests,” and the Foundation becomes a holy, untouchable spiritual capital. This spiritual authority completely paralyzes the military power of the barbarian kings, who fear divine retribution.The Roman-Jewish Parallel: This mirrors the profound transformation of Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE. With their physical capital and sacrificial system destroyed, the Jewish people pivoted completely from a state-centered political identity to a decentralized, text-and-law-centered identity: Rabbinic Judaism.The Convergence: Asimov’s “religion of science” is handled by an elite class of scholars who preserve knowledge through strict ritual and text, effectively weaponizing culture to survive physical subjugation. Similarly, the early Jewish Sages (Tannaim) codified the Mishnah and Talmud, transforming Jewish identity into a portable, intellectual “fortress” that could survive inside the hostile Roman Empire without needing a physical army or homeland.3. The Third Seldon Crisis: The Merchant Princes vs. The Diaspora Tax RevoltThe Seldon Crisis (Economic Interdependence): As religion loses its grip, the Foundation transitions to an empire of “Merchant Princes” led by Hober Mallow. When aggressive neighbors attempt to attack, the Foundation doesn’t fight back with weapons; it implements an economic embargo. The enemy society, utterly hooked on trading for Foundation-made luxuries and appliances, collapses internally due to economic withdrawal.The Roman-Jewish Parallel: This aligns with the economic and civilian friction that triggered the Kitos War (115–117 CE), often called the Diaspora Revolt. Jewish populations were highly integrated into the economic and trading hubs of the Roman Empire, such as Alexandria, Cyrene, and Cyprus. Following the destruction of the Temple, Rome levied the crushing Fiscus Judaicus (Jewish Tax).The Convergence: The Seldon Crisis highlights how trade and taxation can become weaponized friction points between an empire and a distinct subsection of its population. The Kitos War erupted precisely because of the socioeconomic and religious stress of Roman taxation on highly integrated trading communities, demonstrating Asimov’s concept that economic chokeholds generate immense geopolitical crises.4. The Seldon Crisis Blueprint: Internal FactionalismThe Seldon Crisis Concept: Hari Seldon’s “Psychohistory” relies on the behavior of massive, predictable crowds. However, Seldon Crises almost always feature severe internal political paralysis—where conservative factions, religious zealots, and corrupt politicians clash, nearly destroying the Foundation from within before a solution emerges.The Roman-Jewish Parallel: This mimics the tragic internal reality of the Jewish-Roman Wars. According to the historian Josephus, Jerusalem did not fall to Rome merely because of Roman military superiority; it fell due to catastrophic Jewish infighting. Inside the besieged city, warring factions—including the fanatical Zealots, the moderate Pharisees, and the radical Sicarii—slaughtered one another and burned the city’s own food supplies.The Convergence: Both Asimov’s crises and Roman-Jewish history highlight the same core sociological truth: a small, besieged culture is most vulnerable to total destruction when its internal factions care more about fighting each other for ideological purity than solving the existential threat at their doorstep.Would you like to explore how Asimov’s personal Jewish background directly shaped the “Encyclopedia Galactica” concept, or should we look at how the Bar Kokhba Revolt compares to the chaotic rise of The Mule?”

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     • Part 3

       : “explore how Asimov’s personal Jewish background directly shaped the “Encyclopedia Galactica” concept, and look at how the Bar Kokhba Revolt compares to the chaotic rise of The Mule?”’

       Google: “ Isaac Asimov’s personal Jewish background—growing up as a Yiddish-speaking immigrant in Brooklyn with Orthodox roots—profoundly structured the narrative architecture of his Foundation universe. While he was a staunch, lifelong secular humanist and rationalist, Jewish historical paradigms, literary traditions, and generational traumas deeply influenced two of his most enduring concepts: the Encyclopedia Galactica and the disruptive tyrant known as The Mule.[1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7]

       Part 1: The Jewish Underpinnings of the Encyclopedia Galactica
       The Encyclopedia Galactica serves as the ultimate framing device for the Foundation series, introduced as a vast compendium compiled to preserve the sum of human knowledge during a 30,000-year galactic dark age. This concept mirrors the foundational mechanics of Jewish cultural survival in three primary ways: [1, 2]

       1. The Galactic Talmud: Survival Through the Written Word
       Historically, when the Second Temple was destroyed and the Jewish people were driven into the Diaspora, survival shifted from a physical homeland to a textual one. The preservation of identity relied on codifying oral traditions and law into the Talmud and other rabbinic commentaries. Asimov’s “Encyclopedists” function exactly like the ancient scribes and rabbis: a secluded secular priesthood tasked with anchoring an exiled, fragmented civilization using a master text. The stars become the new Diaspora, and the Encyclopedia becomes the text that keeps the civilization alive. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

       2. The Preservation of the “Remnant”
       A core motif in both Judaism and Foundation is the survival of a dedicated “remnant.” Hari Seldon exiles his scientists to the remote, barren rim-world of Terminus. This setup parallels the historical establishment of Yavneh by Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai during the Roman siege of Jerusalem—a small center of learning purposefully saved to ensure the survival of the culture after the empire collapsed. [1]

       3. The Promised Land Ideology
       The entire Seldon Plan is structured around a multi-generational journey through historical exile toward a promised future. The Encyclopedia Galactica serves as the historical ledger confirming that the “chosen people” (the guardians of civilization) successfully traversed the wilderness of galactic barbarism to establish the Second Empire. [1]

       Part 2: The Bar Kokhba Revolt vs. The Chaotic Rise of The Mule
       Asimov wrote the original Foundation stories in the 1940s against the terrifying backdrop of World War II and the rise of Adolf Hitler, but the structural progression of The Mule’s empire heavily echoes the historical tragedy of the Bar Kokhba Revolt (132–136 CE). [1, 2, 3]
       A direct comparison reveals how both figures fundamentally disrupted established historical trajectories:

       The Bar Kokhba Revolt (Historical Judea)The Rise of The Mule (Fictional Galaxy)The Core ThreatA sudden, fierce guerrilla insurgency that blindsided the seemingly invincible Roman Empire.A sudden mentalic expansion that blindsided the First Foundation and the dying Galactic Empire.The Charismatic CatalystSimon bar Kokhba, a leader of immense personal gravity hailed by Rabbi Akiva as the Messiah.The Mule, a mutant with supreme mental capabilities who manipulates raw human emotion to command absolute devotion.Disruption of PredictabilityShattered the Pax Romana and regular Roman military doctrine, forcing Rome to change its entire legions’ deployment.Rendered psychohistory completely useless, as Hari Seldon’s math relied on the behavior of large, unmanipulated masses.Short-Lived TriumphEstablished an independent Judean state, minted coins, but was crushed by Roman reinforcements within a few years.Established the “Union of Planets,” but collapsed rapidly due to the Mule’s lack of an heir and containment by the Second Foundation.

       The “False Messiah” Construct
       In Jewish history, Simon bar Kokhba is the ultimate “False Messiah”—a figure of dazzling promise who ultimately brought catastrophic ruin, leading to the mass slaughter and near-total exile of Judean Jews.
       The Mule acts as a sci-fi iteration of the false messiah archetype. To the outer systems and the disillusioned citizens of a corrupt, late-stage Foundation, the Mule represents a radical, transformative alternative. He bypasses bureaucratic stagnation through sheer force of will. However, because his empire is built entirely on personal mind control rather than sustainable societal foundations, it is an evolutionary dead end. [1, 2, 3, 4]

       The Triumph of the Abstract Over the Individual
       Ultimately, both narratives reach the same conclusion: history cannot be permanently hijacked by a single charismatic warlord.
       Just as the Roman Empire eventually re-established its brutal order, and rabbinic Judaism adapted to survive without Bar Kokhba’s militarism, Asimov’s Second Foundation steps in to neutralize the Mule. The Second Foundationers—acting behind the scenes as mental psychologists—quietly steer the galaxy back onto the path of the Seldon Plan. This mirrors Asimov’s core conviction: individual tyrants pass away, but the collective, rational institutions of human knowledge endure. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]

       If you would like to explore this further, let me know if you want to look at:
       * How Hari Seldon’s psychohistory aligns with Marxist vs. Jewish views of historical determinism.
       * The specific historical parallels between Trantor and the fall of Rome.
       * How Asimov’s stance on 1948 Zionism shaped his later Foundation sequels.”

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       • Part 4 (last)

         Q: * How does Hari Seldon’s psychohistory align with Marxist vs. Jewish views of historical determinism. * The specific historical parallels between Trantor and the fall of Rome. * How Asimov’s stance on 1948 Zionism shaped his later Foundation sequels.”

         Google: “ Hari Seldon’s psychohistory, the architectural fall of Trantor, and Isaac Asimov’s late-career sequels form a deeply interconnected triad that mirrors the socio-political anxieties of the mid-20th century. By anchoring his galactic epic in historical philosophy, Asimov created a narrative that balances material forces against individual agency and isolationist geography against universalism.

         1. Psychohistory: Marxist vs. Jewish Historical Determinism
         Hari Seldon’s psychohistory—the mathematical science capable of predicting the behavior of massive populations—acts as a narrative synthesis of, and departure from, both Marxist and Jewish philosophies of history. [1, 2]

         Marxist Determinism (Historical Materialism)
         * The Alignment: Like Karl Marx’s Historical Materialism, psychohistory assumes that the actions of individuals cancel each other out in the aggregate, leaving history to be driven by massive, predictable socioeconomic forces. Both systems treat history as a science governed by structural laws rather than the whims of “Great Men”. [1, 2, 3, 4]
         * The Divergence: Marx viewed history as a linear, progressive evolution of class struggle culminating in a utopian, classless communist state. Seldon’s psychohistory, conversely, rejects inevitable linear progress. It is entirely cyclical, viewing history through a lens of thermodynamic decay where empires naturally collapse into barbarism and must be manually engineered back into stability. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

         Jewish Determinism (Providential and Covenanted History)
         * The Alignment: Asimov, though a staunchly secular atheist, was deeply influenced by Jewish cultural frameworks. Seldonism mirrors Jewish historical determinism through the concept of the Remnant and the Diaspora. Seldon deliberately exiles a small, elite group of scholars (the Foundation) to the literal “edge” of the galaxy (Terminus) to preserve the light of civilization during an impending dark age. This heavily echoes the preservation of Jewish culture and law through the Babylonian exile and subsequent diasporas. [1, 2, 3, 4]
         * The Divergence: Traditional Jewish determinism relies on divine providence, prophetic destiny, and a covenant with God. Seldon strips out the divine, replacing prophecy with mathematical probability and the “covenant” with the Seldon Plan. Additionally, Jewish theology allows for complete human free will alongside divine foreknowledge; psychohistory, however, requires the population to remain entirely ignorant of the predictions to function. If the population exercises free will with knowledge of the future, the math breaks down. [1, 3, 4]

         2. Historical Parallels: Trantor and the Fall of Rome
         Asimov explicitly stated that the premise of Foundation was inspired by his reading of Edward Gibbon’s The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Trantor, the ecumenopolis (world-city) capital of the Galactic Empire, serves as a direct sci-fi analogue to ancient Rome. [1, 2]

         Historical Factor Ancient Rome
         Bureaucratic Hyper-Centralization Rome became an administrative monolith that suffocated local provincial economies through heavy taxation to fund the capital.
         Logistical Dependency Rome relied completely on the grain supply lines from Egypt and North Africa; a disruption meant immediate starvation.
         Military Coups & Institutional Decay The Praetorian Guard frequently assassinated weak emperors, and powerful generals turned their armies inward to seize the throne.
         The Sacking Rome was famously sacked by the Visigoths (410 AD) and Vandals (455 AD), marking the symbolic death of the Western Empire.
         The Agrarian Aftermath The ruins of Rome became pastures; the population shrank drastically, and citizens grazed cattle in the ancient Forum.

         Asimov’s Trantor
         Trantor is entirely paved over with metal, housing 40 billion bureaucrats who produce nothing but administrative red tape while ruling millions of worlds.
         Trantor cannot produce its own food or water. It relies on a fleet of tens of thousands of cargo ships from “agricultural worlds” just to feed its population.
         The Galactic Empire suffers from endless civil wars where powerful generals desert the front lines to march on Trantor and assassinate the Emperor.
         Trantor is sacked by the rebel leader Gilmer, who destroys the planet’s atmospheric domes, dooming the population and reducing the world to a carcass of twisted metal.
         After the sack of Trantor, the remaining survivors peel up the metal metalwork to expose the soil, turning the former capital into a small, agrarian farming community.

         3. Asimov’s Anti-Zionism and the Late Sequel Pivot
         In 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel divided Asimov from many of his contemporary Jewish peers. Writing in his autobiography, Asimov Laughs Again, he recalled being deeply uneasy with the Zionist movement: [1, 2]

         “I said: What are we doing? We are establishing ourselves in a ghetto, in a small corner of a vast Muslim sea… Israel, as long as it exists, will be embattled.” [1]
         Asimov favored universalism and assimilation over particularism. He believed that ethnic separation and the physical isolation of a group into a heavily defended enclave was a recipe for perpetual warfare. [1, 2]
         When Asimov returned to the franchise in the 1980s to write the sequels—Foundation’s Edge(1982) and Foundation and Earth (1986)—his lived experience with the reality of 1948 Zionism drastically reshaped his ultimate vision for humanity. [1]

         Reassessing the “First Foundation” as Israel
         In the original 1940s trilogy, the First Foundation on Terminus is framed as the heroic underdog—a small, technologically advanced nation surrounded by hostile, barbarian “Four Kingdoms”. They survive through superior intelligence, technology, and trade monopolies. By the 1982 sequels, however, Asimov changes his tone. The First Foundation has become militaristic, nationalistic, fiercely protective of its borders, and blind to its own flaws—mirroring Asimov’s growing real-world critiques of Israeli statehood and nationalism. [1, 2, 3, 4]

         The Rejection of the Seldon Plan for “Galaxia”
         The most radical shift occurs at the climax of Foundation’s Edge. The protagonist, Golan Trevize, is forced to choose the ultimate political future for the galaxy. The choices are:
         1. The First Foundation: A military empire based on physical force and technology.
         2. The Second Foundation: A ruling elite of hidden intellectuals who manipulate the masses from the shadows.
         3. Galaxia: A unified, super-organism network where every human, plant, animal, and pebble shares a collective consciousness. [1, 2]
         Trevize chooses Galaxia, effectively rendering Hari Seldon’s mathematical psychohistory completely obsolete. [1]
         Through Galaxia, Asimov retroactively engineered a philosophical solution to the geopolitical anxieties that troubled him since 1948. Galaxia represents the ultimate end of lines, nations, and distinct ethnic borders. It is Asimov’s sci-fi manifestation of radical universalism—an argument that humanity cannot survive if it splits into isolated, heavily fortified factions (like Terminus or Israel), and must instead dissolve all boundaries to become a single, cooperative family. [1, 2]

         If you want to explore this further, let me know if you would like to analyze:
         * The character of The Mule as a representation of historic unpredictability or totalitarianism.
         * How the Second Foundation’s mental powers mirror early 20th-century psychological theories.
         * The specific textual parallels between Asimov’s sci-fi religion (“The Church of Science”) and historical state religions.”

         —-
         My comment: Kumbaya, anyone?

         The 2nd Intifada/Oslo Terror War/Al Aqsa whatever proved him wrong. Oct 7th proved him wrong. Fortunately, younger Israeli Jews are waking up. In America, many of us still need to get our heads out of our nether regions.

         In fact, affirming Jewish national self-determination in Eretz Israel and winning in war and commerce has brought Israel closer to the universalist ideal than the universalist fallacy.

         Particularism leads to harmonious interchange between nations as preparing for war leads to peace.

         Put that dialectic in your pipe and smoke it.

         1

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         • @Sebastien,

           This was a very interesting thread. I never read the Foundation series, but it was very revealing all the same. As you said, it is relevant, very relevant in fact.

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2. @Peloni post disappeared

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   • @Sebastien
     Thanks, it’s back.

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3. ” In mid-century, Karl Marx dismissed religion altogether as a narcotic.”

   My query: “moses hess senior marx and engels collaborator, wrote the Religion is the opiate of the masses which Marx quoted without attribution in the Communist Manifesto, became disillusioned and wrote the earliest Zionist manifesto in the 1860’s “”Rome and Jerusalem,” which was ignored. Herzl said if he had known about it, he wouldn’t have bothered to write his, “The Jewish State.”

   Google AI Overview response: “summary highlights a fascinating, deeply interconnected historical narrative. Moses Hess was indeed a critical bridge between two of the most influential global movements of the modern era: socialism and Zionism. [1, 2]
   Here is a breakdown of how the historical facts align with your statement:

   1. The “Communist Rabbi” and the Opium Metaphor
   * The Collaboration: Hess was a senior figure in the early socialist movement. He served as a mentor to Karl Marx and is credited with introducing Friedrich Engels to communism. Marx affectionately referred to him at one point as his “communist rabbi”. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
   * The “Opiate” Phrase: You are correct that Hess used the opium metaphor first. In his 1843 essays, Hess wrote that religion can make the “unhappy consciousness of serfdom” bearable, “in the same way as opium is of good help in painful diseases.” [1]
   * Marx’s Adaptation: Marx did not put this in the Communist Manifesto (1848), but rather used it slightly earlier in his 1844 essay, A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right. Marx famously wrote, “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature… It is the opium of the people.” While Marx popularized it without directly citing Hess, the metaphor was a fluid concept within their shared radical German circles. [1, 2]

   2. Disillusionment and “Rome and Jerusalem”
   * The Shift: Following the failure of the European revolutions of 1848 and witnessing a rising tide of racialized German antisemitism, Hess realized that assimilation would not save European Jewry. []
   * The Book: In 1862, he published Rome and Jerusalem: The Last National Question. It is widely considered the founding text of Labor Zionism. He argued that Jews were a distinct nation (not just a religion) and must establish a democratic, socialist agrarian commonwealth in Palestine. [1, 2, 3, 4]
   * The Reception: As you noted, the book was largely ignored or mocked by his contemporary radical socialist peers, who viewed national movements as a distraction from the global working-class struggle. [1]

   3. Theodor Herzl’s Admission
   Your memory regarding Theodor Herzl is entirely accurate. Decades later, Theodor Herzl—acting independently after the Dreyfus Affair—wrote his own Zionist manifesto, Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State, 1896). [1, 2]
   When Herzl eventually read Hess’s overlooked book, he was stunned by how completely Hess had anticipated his own ideas. In his diaries, Herzl praised him immensely, famously noting: [1]

   “Since Spinoza, Jewry has brought forth no greater thinker than this forgotten Moses Hess,” and admitted that if he had known of Rome and Jerusalem beforehand, he might never have written The Jewish State. [1]
   Hess’s legacy was eventually fully realized; in 1961, his remains were moved from Germany and reinterred at the Kinneret Cemetery in Israel alongside other founding fathers of Labor Zionism. [1, 2]”

   “AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses”

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