Gaza Disengagement. Continuing the debate

A former officer weighs in.

Regarding Gaza;
I have extensive first hand experience there both as a soldier and as a frequent visitor.

Follows a simple recounting of what I know.

The military personnel now serving the perimeter and posted at crossings and assigned to nearby community security details, sea and air operations are roughly in the division range. General Gallant was in charge of the GAZA Division.

About the same number of soldiers as before the disastrous self serving strategic blunder by Sharon and his ilk.

Presently at least a squadron of AH-64’s and a number of F-16’s are dedicated to the sector.

In the past those services were limited if at all used.

The number of drones in service there is substantial.

The motorized units at least double in number those in place while Gush Katif existed.

At that time the Gaza threat was considered tactical at military level.
Today is strategic and tactical.

Many of the multiple casualties encounters during the Gush Katif era were caused by the “safety” ideologists setting up many soldiers at isolated perimeters.

Note that during major operations there today, a very limited number of troops are hurt.

NOTE: An isolated military unit or soldier are sitting ducks which will surely be taken down by the enemy if enough time is given to said enemy.

Gaza posts an idled International grade airport, (interdicted), and a updated Ocean going vessel port, (blockaded).

Gaza will without a doubt evolve further into a major strategic theat as they gain control of the port and airfield.

This would not have existed as during Gush Katif there was no airport and the port was abandoned.

Most experienced military personnel can easily point to a major strategic debacle in Gaza the consequences of which will be made more and more evident as time goes by.

Woe to all of us as those facilities will become operational for Iran.
Before the act by Sharon we had control over the whole area, since “disengagement” Gaza has turned a trainig and staging center for the worst enemies.

ABOUT SOLDIERS SERVING. Being a soldier is a high risk job and the pretense that we must make them “safe” as a main stand alone condition is not well thought.

We must make them deadly and thus they will be safer. Soldiers with rubber bullets or paint ball guns hardly represent a worthy threat to enemies….

My Commanding Officer during Lebanon ! was Sgan Aluf Hamze, Druze. I saw with my own eyes how the islamic units would simply run as they got wind that our Regiment was moving in. They knew that Hamze’s boys had a fame of seldom taiking prisoners during previous wars.

Manhigut Yahudit weighs in

I’m not logged in either, so please indulge me.

Chodoff and Ne’eman are correct about the “Disengagement” from their point of view. Yes, it took too many soldiers and other resources, etc., to protect such a small area. The problem is not their analysis. The problem is their point of view.

They look at the situation from an “Israeli” point of view instead of from a “Jewish” point of view.

Prior to the Rabin/Arafat handshake, it only took Israel 3 jeeps to control Gaza. 12 years later, it took Israel 65 tanks plus numerous other army resources to control Gaza. The problem was not Gaza, per se. The problem was the “peace process” brought on by Rabin.

This “peace” shifted us from “Jewish Justice” to “pragmatism” in our minds, and from strength to weakness in the minds of the Arabs. And as you have pointed out so many times, Ted, the Arabs view weakness as an invitation.

Gaza is clearly part of the Land of Israel (see Genesis and Joshua), and as such, how can we just give away something that G-d has given us? We can’t.

Chodoff will say that we did it to save lives. That’s his argument, but the reality is that many Jews have been killed as a result of the Disengagement and the Peace Process in general. More Jews have died from terror attacks since 93 than during the first 45 years of the state.

And since we are shattering myths, it should not have been called “Disengagement” because we didn’t disengage from Gaza. It truthfully should be called the “Expulsion” because it was simply an expulsion of 10,000 wonderful Jews.

Now, back to the Chodoff/Ne’eman argument. They claim that it cost Israel too many resources to guard Israel when we had our settlements in Gaza. However, this is so simply because of the self-imposed Israeli policy of restraint used against her enemies. Israel, as we have seen with all of our eyes for so many years, let’s her enemies attack her and her citizens virtually with impunity. The Gaza Arabs sent an average of 4.5 rockets/missiles/mortars into settlements and towns both inside pre-67 Israel and into Gaza with impunity for almost 5 years without response. Then Israel responded by running out of Gaza and handing it to the enemy. If Israel had, for instance, told the Arabs in Gaza that each time that they shoot one missile into Israel – or commit one act of terror against a Jew – that an Arab-occupied town in Gaza would be wiped off the map, and if Israel had done it just once, then the Arabs would have understood, and in my opinion, with history as a guide, the Arabs would have stopped the rockets and shootings after this one display of force. This is actually the policy of Alan Dershowitz, the noted leftist, and not the policy of an “extremist”.

But the Israeli governments want to get rid of the Jewish presence in Yesha, because they are scared of the political influence of the Jews who live in these areas. They are scared of Jews who will run Israel from a Jewish perspective instead of from an Israeli perspective running the show.

The Jewish point of view – noted often by Ariel Sharon himself – is that when an enemy comes to kill you, you get up before him and kill him first. It was very ironic that a leftist like Dershowitz should advocate much closer to the Jewish point of view than the observant Chodoff and Ne’eman.

Ariel Sharon said that the World will love us after we leave Gaza. Well, we’ve had the Lebanon War, Cast Lead, Goldstone and the Flotilla, and the World’s anti-Semitism is growing to bounds not seen since 1945. It appears that the World now hates us more than ever because we are running away from ourselves and our G-d, and it is my opinion that they want us to stand up and be Jewish in our actions and not be Israeli.

We’ve tried appeasement in all of its forms. Maybe we should try running to our roots, our heritage, our history and our G-d?

August 23, 2010 | 6 Comments »

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6 Comments / 6 Comments

  1. yamit82 says:
    August 23, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    Where was Feiglin at Amona?

    He already understood long before that change will not come from Zu Artzeinus and Amonas. There are two paths to chose from. One is political. That is currently Manhigut’s path. You don’t like it? Well, when you decide to do a Baruch Goldstein on some deserving redcoat Israelis, we’ll all salute you.

  2. ellichod

    So debate me. The policy of the IDF after Oslo was havlaga restraint. That was a political decision and not a military one. It cost lives needlessly and required far more manpower than was needed if we had been offensive minded and actively pursued terrorists to their sources. You can’t defend bad political policy resulting in overextended lines and then claim that we needed to tactically retreat because of overextend personel. Every combat private serving in Gaza knew the political policy of the government was insane and caused unnecessary casualties. What you are defending is a political crime to cover another political crime.

    Who supplied most of the raw material to Gaza to build Kassams? Who put no pressure on America or Egypt to close the Tunnels or at least to reduce them significantly? Israel. Who continued to pay tax rebates to the VIP in the PLO despite the terror? Israel .who suppliedthe Arabs with weapons training and ammo? Israel. Who despite terror continued to supply free Electricity , water, and telephone services? Israel. Who supplies gas and petrol to Gaza? Israel. Who supplies much of the medical supplies and meds to Gaza ? Israel.

    Who employed thousands of Arabs from the strip despite terror? Israel

    After disengagement has any of the above changed? Has Shalit been released? The export income Israel gained from the farmers in Gush Katif more than made up any additional costs to the military.

    Lastly ethnic cleansing of Jews by Jews is now a principle set in granite and will be used against us in the future.

    Learn from the Arabs Land is everything and worth every price to hold.

    And if you are religious you should go back to the source the Torah, What did haShem do to Abraham when he gave land away for peace? What was the penalty?

    How did G-d punish Abraham for giving land away 7 land to Avimelech for a treaty of peace? He gave away lands promised by G-d to Bnei Yisrael

    to the Philistines. The punishment was that the Philistines would rule over Bnei Yisrael for 7 generations for that transgression.. That by the way was Gaza (Part of the promised land, then and now)

    Here is the basis for the Halacha go and learn:HERE

  3. I will not debate “former officer.” I also spent a bit of time in Gaza. I will only repeat that they key force that was overstretched was INFANTRY. His comments that armored, mechanized, air and naval forces are now effectively deployed, proves my point. They were useless when terrorists lived literally next door to Jewish communities.

    As for “Manhigut Yehudit.” You (intentionally?) distort what I wrote. If you want to argue that Oslo led to the untenable situation, you get no argument from me. I was writing specifically about decisions made in 2004-2005. For you to argue that “Chodoff will say that we did it to save lives. That’s his argument, but the reality is that many Jews have been killed as a result of the Disengagement and the Peace Process in general. More Jews have died from terror attacks since 93 than during the first 45 years of the state.” I agree with you. But what has been the toll since August 2005? Compared to 2000-2005? Please, if you are going to argue with me, please keep your statistics honest.

    Kindly refrain from implying that I am some sort of terrorist collaborator or sympathizer because I believe that there are times when you have to make a tactical withdrawal because you are overextended. I am well aware of the quote, “if one comes to kill you, kill him first.” (Bavli, Sanhedrin 65b). I also believe in it strongly. But our ability to hold Gaza with whatever force (and it was emphatically NEVER three jeeps!) in the past, changed for lots of reasons. Have you ever heard of the global terrorist network? They weren’t around much in 1990.

    Our sages also taught “tafasta merubeh lo tafasta.” He who tris to hold everything ends up with nothing. Now that I have demonstrated my ability to quote sources, let’s talk identity. You say my point of view is “Israeli” not “Jewish.” As if there’s one “Jewish” view, and as if being Israeli somehow makes me not “Jewish.” Who left you in charge of making that determination?

  4. I agree with the Officer res.

    I would add the by now 13-15 billion shekels already paid out in compensation and still climbing. Several billions lost in agriculture exports as the farmers of Katif were the best and most productive and innovative farmers in the world. Nobody to my knowledge has replaced their productivity.

    Just the electronic security measures around Gaza cost a fortune. Israel; after disengagement built the largest infantry base in the country adjacent to Gaza. Again at a high cost and the soldiers are not protected against kassams and mortars.

    I have criticims for the Gush residents.

    They believed their Phony rabbis and Sharon. They did nothing or almost nothing to resist the ethnic cleansing. We in Yamit put up a better

    struggle than did the residents of Katif but then we didn’t have religious charlatans telling us the G-d would never allow the expulsion either.

    Gush Emunim sold out Yamit and they did the same in Katif. I don’t think it is a coincidence that most of the leadership is on the governments payroll. No rabbi should be on a government payroll it is corruption. Self interest trumping ideology.

    Hanuka is coming soon and there is a message there for the so called religious. Boy Scouts don’t win wars internal or external.

    Where was Feiglin at Amona?

  5. My eight years living south of Gaza before Oslo and after Sharon had pacified Gaza, quite ruthlessly was a Gaza where I employed workers from the stip. and did my shopping in the Arab shops had my car repaired by Arab mechanics, ate in their restaurants and generally we had a reasonable social and commercial intercourse. We didn’t love them and they didn’t love us but we got along becuse we were strong and dominant. They respected our strength and during that time they lived as free human-beings.

    The Left brought in Ali Baba Arafat and his 40,000 thieves and the word changed in Gaza.

    Gush Katif was about 5 miles from the main border crossing. All Israel had to do was to annex the area between Gush Katif and the Border provide an underground tunnel for the main north, south main highway of the areas annexed to katif and they then would not be anymore isolated than any border settlement inside the green line. The northern Gaza settlement could have easily been anexed as the straddled the green line.

    Here Sharon and his band of crooks wanted to build a casino resort complex and they needed the land so out went the Jews. They also had Fatah partners. Many in the security services have partnered up with their opposites on the Arab side to milk billions out of the Israeli treasury and into the corrupt Arab partners pockets.

    Many reasons for kicking out the Jews but corruption tops the list. Yossi Ginosar (Shabak head) handled Arafat’s investments in Europe some say as much as a $billion.

    I did reserve duty for two years providing support for the Shabak and they had a hand on contol of security.

    When we left Gaza we lost our intel organization and it took years and million of dollars to rbuild but never as good or secure as it was when we were in Gaza.

    Settlements have always given the IDF the excuse and reason for being in the territories as they needed to protect the civilians living there, settlement abandoned the IDF lost their fig leaf as well.