Feiglin: Never Mind Yesha, Make Sure We’re in Control of Lod

24 Comments / 74 Comments

1. DAVIDA ROSENBERG Said:

   Rabbis need to be careful of their imaginations.

   Doth said the loon.

2. @ yamit82:

   I will read the essay you posted and return.
   I, however, do not place the words of mortals to be above the words of YHWH.
   Rabbis need to be careful of their imaginations.

3. @ yamit82:

   Some people think that because of ‘their many words’, they will be heard.
   Children on the other hand, who have not yet learned to read, are most esteemed in the Kingdom of YHWH.

4. @ Davida Rosenberg:

   This is a timeless plea for mercy which extends not only to the Jew, but also to the stranger who
   seeks The God of Israel and His House. Thank you for posting it. It is entirely beautiful.

   Didn’t think you would get it:

   The Temple Mount, referred to in the Book of Deuteronomy tens of times as “The place the L-rd will choose,” called the ritual center by Biblical scientists, and of which was said in the beautiful, the mother of all prayers, of Solomon of the Temple ( 1Kings 8) “The L-rd said that the He would dwell in, a settled place for you to abide forever.” As if Solomon were saying to G-d that “as long as you are obscured there cannot be any contact between us. I am building you a tangible, clear, geographic home in which you can receive the prayers of your people Israel and the prayers of any who wish to pray to you,” for “your eyes to be open toward this house night and day.” A request for G-d to center his prayer-accepting heart around this house. “What prayer and supplication be made by any man, or by all your people Israel… and he shall spread forth his hands toward this House.”

   “And also the foreigner who is not of your People Israel…when he shall come and pray toward this House, and you shall hear.”

   “If your people go out to battle against their enemy, and they shall pray to the L-rd toward the City which you have chosen and the House I have built for your name.”

   And so all, individual and collective, Hebrew and non-Jew, shall find the way to G-d only through this House. Not only by entering it, for those far away too, there is no other way to the Heavens: “If they sin against you, and their captors carry them away to the land of their enemy, and pray to you toward their Land which you gave to their fathers, the City which you have chosen and the House I have built for your name, and you will hear.” (What brilliant thinking! For those who come to pray he mentions only the Temple. And for those in Exile in the distant Diaspora, he includes the Land, the City and the Temple.)

   The imagery and phrasing of this prayer are so concrete and concise that they make it the ultimate expression of Hebrew belief. It rises above all that philosophers and theologians and even prophets have written in all the generations that followed. The localization of the Temple, despite Solomon’s full knowledge that “not even the Heavens can contain you,” and the idea is wider and more open than pantheism, yet nonetheless, or perhaps precisely because of this, there is a need for trying to this one spot a gate open to foreigners. We are not a religious community that keeps its G-d to itself and posits places for other religions. We are liberal enough to allow other religions their belief, but not so overly liberal that we credit them with the label “truth.” We ado not concede the possibility of a different Gate to heaven … therefore Our Temple’s gateways to Heaven are open to all. Also note the reference in this prayer to war; let us do away with the notion of on being a pacifist before the era of the Messiah, for the ideas are intertwined: G-d’s return to the Temple and a war of conquest, with revenge upon enemies.

   As for the location of this spot, let artists try to explain it with their paint brushes. Let strategists expound, geopolitists and geologists and archeologists exigise. This is not our business. What is our concern is that this spot, with no possibility of change is “the place that is chosen.” No apparent “rationalism,” no “enlightened” philosophy can change this, nor move even one square meter of the mount.

   And especially he who believes most deeply in the oneness, the all-encompassing-ness, the infinity of G-d, as every believing Jew, he will be most adamant about this oneness, this unique example in time and space; Temple Mount. No other Temple is acceptable, no matter how beautiful, if it is not on this Mount. Nor is this Mount acceptable without the “Great and Holy Temple” standing on it. Great and holy, both symbolizing the unification and synthesis of the material basis, the great foundation in the land that surrounds it, with the quality of Holiness.

   A secular historian might try to evade this point by suggesting “The spot is sanctified by the blood zealots spilled in defending her.” But the question remains: Why so much blood spilled over this spot? The reason for which so much blood was spilled is that which obligates the spilling of more blood to re-conquer her, if necessary. And the reason is: the objective holiness of this spot as the Kodesh Kodeshim , Holy of Holies, of our nation , and in the Days to Come, of all nations, for this is the meeting place of Heaven and earth. The Temple allows us to recognize that G-d is above nature, beyond us, yet still within our reach. Here man takes hold of G-d, and G-d takes hold of man. Centralizing prayer here provides the strength to stand in this physical word that has no beginning and no end and therefore no actuality. It gives our eyes and hearts a focus other than pure abstraction. It is the only refuge of man between the two things that never end and never really begin; physics and metaphysics. It is the center of the universe. According to Jewish tradition the “foundation-stone” at the center of the mount (today the rock under the Dome of the Rock) is the stone that served as foundation of the world, from it G-d created our world. This stone witnessed the birth of faith as well, for on it Abraham bound his son Isaac, some say the Jewish people have been inexorably bound to this spot ever since. Certainly we have been on the altar since then. This same stone would later become the center of the Temple. And so, this mount is the spiritual and physical center of the universe. Through it man comes to life, learns to live. Some see this clearly, others merely feel it, but both know that the power and meaning of existence are to be found here. http://www.saveisrael.com/eldad/saveisraeleldad.htm

5. @ Davida Rosenberg:

   Typical of pride; it simply cannot stand to see Truth standing right in front of their eyes.

   What truth?

   If we were so perfect as you propose, we would not have been evicted out of the land for 2,000 years.

   Shy never said anything about being perfect.. G-d does not expect perfection from us. I could make a historcal case that the exile was necessary for the preservation of the Jewish people and was part of the divine plan for us all along.
   
   G-d Regrets Four Things

   R. Chana bar Acha said: There are four things G-d regrets having created: Exile, the Chaldeans (Casdim), the Ishmaelites (Yishmaelim), and the Evil Inclination (Yetzer Ha-ra). (Sukka 52b)

   
   Read More: Complete Essay

   We didn’t earn the exile for our good behavior. But it needn’t trouble you any further;

   I suggest you read carefully the essay in the Link I provided above and again here…
   

6. yamit82 Said:

   Shy Guy seems to have repeated all of Feiglin’s published talking points View here

   One important article which came out in Hebrew last week is now available in English:

   An Investor’s Guide to the Political Market, by Moshe Feiglin

   The original article in Hebrew is here:

   The Faith-based Guide to the [Israeli] Political Jungle

7. yamit82 Said:

   Shy Guy seems to have repeated all of Feiglin’s published talking points. View here.

   Baruch Sheh’kivanti! I did not see that article nor anything similar until now. Perhaps the reason why you assume I am “repeating” something I have seem or heard is because you can’t fathom that these conclusions can be reached by independent thought based on both knowing Manhigut Yehudit and understanding that there is nothing new under the sun of Israeli political cycles.

   If you want, keep the link you provided in your memory and after the elections and the ensuing coalition formulation go back to the article and see what Shmuel Sacket got right and what he got wrong.

8. Davida Rosenberg Said:

   Typical of pride

   Typical of arrogance.

   If we were so perfect as you propose,

   I never proposed that. Typical deception.

   we

   No. Us Jews. Not you. To paraphrase the Hagadah: “Ilu hayit sham, lo hayit nigelet.”

   Rahab the harlot to Ruth the Moabite; who have mixed their bloodline with yours. So much for pride.

   It’s time to inform you: so much for stupid analogies.

   A hardened heart cannot hold it’s blood. Bitter roots poison the plant.

   I don’t even think that Reader’s Digest would accept such blather.

9. @ yamit82:

   This is a timeless plea for mercy which extends not only to the Jew, but also to the stranger who
   seeks The God of Israel and His House. Thank you for posting it. It is entirely beautiful.

10. @ Shy Guy:

    Typical of pride; it simply cannot stand to see Truth standing right in front of their eyes.
    If we were so perfect as you propose, we would not have been evicted out of the land for 2,000 years. We didn’t earn the exile for our good behavior. But it needn’t trouble you any further;
    it would take a large amount of humility to see what should be seen, and is not. You say that you see, so then, the state of your being, is what it is. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    In King David’s and thus Solomon’s lineage, we have an interesting cast of characters ranging from
    Rahab the harlot to Ruth the Moabite; who have mixed their bloodline with yours. So much for pride.
    There is no room for it; and since GOD has chosen, who are you to protest? I see a Yamit has decided to grace us with the prayer of King Solomon, which is stunning in beauty and heart. How refereshing that resentment has begotten loveliness. A hardened heart cannot hold it’s blood. Bitter roots poison the plant. Blessed is the God of Israel.

11. @ Shy Guy:
    @ Canadian Otter:

    Shy Guy seems to have repeated all of Feiglin’s published talking points View here

12. @ Davida Rosenberg:

    King Solomon inaugurates The Temple addressing the assembled congregation of Israel. Melachim I – I Kings – Chapter 8

    King Solomon prays for the nation of Israel with the following Prayer:

    Some excerpts: Read it thoroughly because there has never been a clearer explanation as to who and what we are and supposed to be. Nothing in Youshka’s book can match it.

    8:14 And the king turned his face about, and blessed all the congregation of Israel; and all the congregation of Israel stood.

    8:15 And he said: ‘Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who spoke with His mouth unto David my father, and hath with His hand fulfilled it, saying:

    8:22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven;

    8:23 and he said: ‘O the Lord, the God of Israel, there is no God like Thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath; who keepest covenant and mercy with Thy servants, that walk before Thee with all their heart;

    8:28 Yet have Thou respect unto the prayer of Thy servant, and to his supplication, O the Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer which Thy servant prayeth before Thee this day;

    8:29 that Thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place whereof Thou hast said: My name shall be there; to hearken unto the prayer which Thy servant shall pray toward this place.

    8:30 And hearken Thou to the supplication of Thy servant, and of Thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place; yea, hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place; and when Thou hearest, forgive.

    8:31 If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be exacted of him to cause him to swear, and he come and swear before Thine altar in this house;

    8:32 then hear Thou in heaven, and do, and judge Thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his own head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.

    8:33 When Thy people Israel are smitten down before the enemy, when they do sin against Thee, if they turn again to Thee, and confess Thy name, and pray and make supplication unto Thee in this house;

    8:34 then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy people Israel, and bring them back unto the land which Thou gavest unto their fathers.

    8:35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, when they do sin against Thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess Thy name, and turn from their sin, when Thou dost afflict them;

    8:36 then hear Thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of Thy servants, and of Thy people Israel, when Thou teachest them the good way wherein they should walk; and send rain upon Thy land, which Thou hast given to Thy people for an inheritance.

    8:37 If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, if there be blasting or mildew, locust or caterpillar; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be;

    8:38 what prayer and supplication soever be made by any man of all Thy people Israel, who shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house;

    8:39 then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and forgive, and do, and render unto every man according to all his ways, whose heart Thou knowest–for Thou, even Thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men–

    8:40 that they may fear Thee all the days that they live in the land which Thou gavest unto our fathers.

    8:41 Moreover concerning the stranger that is not of Thy people Israel, when he shall come out of a far country for Thy name’s sake–

    8:42 for they shall hear of Thy great name, and of Thy mighty hand, and of Thine outstretched arm–when he shall come and pray toward this house;

    8:43 hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to Thee for; that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as doth Thy people Israel, and that they may know that Thy name is called upon this house which I have built.

    8:44 If Thy people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatsoever way Thou shalt send them, and they pray unto the Lord toward the city which Thou hast chosen, and toward the house which I have built for Thy name;

    8:45 then hear Thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

    8:46 If they sin against Thee–for there is no man that sinneth not–and Thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near;

    8:47 yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they are carried captive, and turn back, and make supplication unto Thee in the land of them that carried them captive, saying: We have sinned, and have done iniquitously, we have dealt wickedly;

    8:48 if they return unto Thee with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray unto Thee toward their land, which Thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which Thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for Thy name;

    8:49 then hear Thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven Thy dwelling-place, and maintain their cause;

    8:50 and forgive Thy people who have sinned against Thee, and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against Thee; and give them compassion before those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them;

    8:51 for they are Thy people, and Thine inheritance, which Thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron;

    8:52 that Thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of Thy servant, and unto the supplication of Thy people Israel, to hearken unto them whensoever they cry unto Thee.

    8:53 For Thou didst set them apart from among all the peoples of the earth, to be Thine inheritance, as Thou didst speak by the hand of Moses Thy servant, when Thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O L-rd GOD.’

    8:54 And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the Lord, he arose from before the altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread forth toward heaven.

    8:55 And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying:

    8:56 `Blessed be the Lord, that hath given rest unto His people Israel, according to all that He promised; there hath not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised by the hand of Moses His servant.

13. Davida Rosenberg Said:

    Our own brothers

    You are not one of us. Perhaps you were once. You’ve cut yourself off – cooked your own goose.

    It is the greatest of hypocrisy for you to talk about “unity” in Israel, whether you be technically Jew and certainly based on your christian missionizing on this forum.
    Davida Rosenberg Said:

    Where is the voice? the cry? the plea to ‘return’? Where is it????

    There is plenty of it here. You are just ignorant of the Jewish community in Israel, from simple people to rabbis. You’re completely lost.

14. @ Shy Guy:

    The tragedy is the division in the camp. Our own brothers arrest us for the ‘crime’ of moving our lips on the Mount which served for the testing of Abraham, the would-be sacrifice of his son, and the Place where The Sovereign allowed His Name to be placed. Today, we have a ringling brother’s circus and cast of characters that should win the award for ‘grade z’ movies. It is beyond logic and reasoning power. ‘the whole head is sick.’ The unity and single minded vision to welcome Israel’s King is still a dream. If we need ‘unity’ to usher in the divine age, then where is it?

    People use behaviors, the kind of which gave us the destruction of Sodom. It is back; it is in the land, and it is in our face. As if this is not enough, there is a sore lacking of judicial logic and fairness. We are oppressed! Evil is good, and good is evil. Soon we will be looking at the final dealings which will lead to the dividing of the land and this will cause us to look at the book of Joel. This is why I say that ‘men’ and politics’ will not bring about the desired result in the heart of the faithful. The people need a national spritual return and to prepare themselves for ‘what is coming.’ This is what I see is missing from among the spritual leadership in Israel. If any place on planet earth should be sounding the alarm, should it not be
    Israel and Israel’s leaders? Where is the voice? the cry? the plea to ‘return’? Where is it????

15. Off-subject, but interesting:

    A story of German Neo-Nazis helping the PLO, and one Neo-Nazi who became a spy for the CIA because it was the best of three choices he had.

    The Munich Olympics and the CIA’s New Informant

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/how-willi-voss-went-from-abetting-terror-to-working-for-the-cia-a-875374.html

    The real story about links between Germany, Neo-Nazis, the CIA, and terror against Israel is a lot darker than what’s on this article.

16. Canadian Otter Said:

    Likud is toxic and dangerous

    What happens when you do nothing to clean up a toxic waste site?

    There is no relevance to “Bennet in the interim”. He will not dictate to Netanyahu as a coalition member and he will be useless like all the others before him in the opposition. And again, when the interim passes, watch the New-Same-as-the-Old Mafdal splinter once again into itsy-bitsy pieces. This is endless cycle is what national religious Jews think serves them best, apparently. Regards to Eldad (El-dud) and Marzel.

17. Its not going to happen because Bennet is not tea partyer, if the hints until now of his flexible spine aren’t enough.

    What you are suggesting could work but it is not happening here. Moshe has always said that the Likud is not holy and the time might eventually come where Manhigut will leave.

    The time is not now. Abandon the Likud now and watch Netanyahu do 10 times more damage (yes, it could have been much worse until now) with no serious internal opposition and with heavy collaboration from Shelly Yechimovich and the rest of the left.

    But enjoy your fleeting feel-good moment of voting for Mister Nice Guy.

18. @ Shy Guy:
    I don’t like Bennett either, but he’s a convenient stepping stone to a more genuine right wing coalition in the future. Likud is toxic and dangerous, and I’d much rather vote for a wishy-washy party than the pro-partition, pro-expulsions, pro-Dhimmihood Likud.

    Bennett may be more malleable, and it’s all about who gets to him first.

    Voters need to prevent the Likud-Obama poisonous mix that may be fatal to Israel. Until Strong Israel becomes a galvanizing force, Bennett is the guy in the interim.

19. @ Shy Guy:
    – I just remembered. There used to be a Progressive-Conservative Party in Canada, with a long tradition. Discontents abandoned it and formed the Reform Party (sort of Tea Party).
    – Reformers did well enough so that a few years later, when the Progressive Conservatives were out of favor, the vigorous Reform Party merged with the weakened Prog Cons., and renamed the new party the Conservative Party of Canada.
    – The Conservatives eventually became the government, with a Reform philosophy. The Liberal opposition shrunk into insignificance, and the even more leftist NDP lost its charismatic leader last year and may take a while to recover.
    – That’s the short version of how to take over a party from the outside, not from the inside. The Likud seems to be on a downward spiral. It’s discredited. It’s unpopular. It’s desperate and dangerous. Time for Moshe to leave.

20. Canadian Otter Said:

    1) If you’re going to get a dictator anyway, why not vote for one that will be on the side of Jews rather than on the side of Arabs?
    2) If you don’t want a leftist Likud PM – stop supoorting the party and abandon the infested Likud altogether. Why make the path to true Jewish leadership so convoluted? Take a straight line to Strong Israel or to Bennett’s party as second choice, and as temporary block to Two-States Likud.

    Because they will either sit uselessly in opposition or cowtow their principles to get a comfy spot in the coalition. Bennet has already shown just how flexible he is when the time comes for Gush Katif II. As such, whenever future elections take place, you will find the New Mafdal – same as the old – breaking apart once again between the committed to Israel and the complacent compromisers, the latter of which Bennet is. Mark my words.

    3) Have you thought what would happen if M. Feiglin got his wish and the right wing took over Likud? The center and center left would flee and form a new party in coalition with other Two-Staters, and leave Moshe with the Likud’s debt and not enough MKs to form a govt.

    They are not enough to permanently reduce the Likud to a minority party. Remember how the Likud dropped dead after Sharon and bounced back when Shabtai Zvi Netanyahu promised to bring the Likud and Israel back to its right place under the sun. Only Netanyahu lied and people are still grasping onto this false messiah pretending it isn’t so. Even at its low-point, the Likud was a more permanent and solid institution than any of the splintered minority parties are in their heydays.

    I say bring it on!

21. @ Shy Guy:
    1) If you’re going to get a dictator anyway, why not vote for one that will be on the side of Jews rather than on the side of Arabs?
    2) If you don’t want a leftist Likud PM – stop supoorting the party and abandon the infested Likud altogether. Why make the path to true Jewish leadership so convoluted? Take a straight line to Strong Israel or to Bennett’s party as second choice, and as temporary block to Two-States Likud.
    3) Have you thought what would happen if M. Feiglin got his wish and the right wing took over Likud? The center and center left would flee and form a new party in coalition with other Two-Staters, and leave Moshe with the Likud’s debt and not enough MKs to form a govt.

22. Canadian Otter Said:

    that voters are presented with different agendas. They have a choice. US Jews voted for Obama, to the horror of many Israelis, many of whom will be now voting for Likud and Yisrael Beitenu, without noticing the irony.

    Apples and oranges again. By method, Israel’s PM has the powers of a mini-dictator. There is no balance of powers in Israel’s government. Netanyahu has trampled on the Likud’s own official platform of principles, which was never changed. There is no equivalent in the US Democratic party to the counterweight against the Party leader as there is within the Likud. There is no historic equivalent occurrence in the US Democratic party of a party leader (Sharon) quitting the party to form a new party (Kadima) because of massive objection from within the party’s central committee (Mercaz Likud). There are no Jews in the US who voted for Obama because they want to oust Obama from within the Democratic Party. There are 1000s and 1000s of Jews in Israel who vote Likud with the intent of eventually removing the thugs at the top who do not represent what the Likud voters stand for, which is certainly not 2 states for 2 peoples.

    Apples and turnips.

23. @ Shy Guy:
    Their electoral systems are very different, but what the US and Israel have in common is that voters are presented with different agendas. They have a choice. US Jews voted for Obama, to the horror of many Israelis, many of whom will be now voting for Likud and Yisrael Beitenu, without noticing the irony.

    Since PM Netanyahu’s statement a few days ago that he is firmly in support of a Palestinian state, whoever votes for Likud or Yisrael Beiteinu knows that he will get more of what he got in the past four years – plus a renewed effort to either create a Palestinian state or to simply disengage from Yesha. And a nasty surprise or two for after the election. And any Likud MK with a conscience will be completely helpless to stop whatever is coming ahead. Are Likud voters any wiser than US Jews for Obama?

24. DAVIDA ROSENBERG Said:

    @ Shy Guy:

    Surely you jest. If the Great King was in your midst, do you think the charade of
    false peace accords, rockets at His children, gay and lesbian parades, Jews being arrested on the Mount for ‘moving their lips’, and the plan to divide His land would
    be taking place? To be sure, the Great King will have mercy for His Covenant sake, but please read The Book so that reality will prevail over illusion.

    Simple question, no matter what you believe in: is there or is there not Divine intervention in the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel, allowing for the establishment of Jewish reign over His land for His people for the first time in 2000 years?

    If your answer is yes, that is what I meant by “being in our midst”. As for reading “The Book”, I read the Torah from first to last page each and every year, with various commentaries along with it. Here are some elementary verses for you:

    “30 In thy distress, when all these things are come upon thee, in the end of days, thou wilt return to the LORD thy God, and hearken unto His voice; 31 for the LORD thy God is a merciful God; He will not fail thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which He swore unto them.” – Devarim (Deuteronomy) 4

    “1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt bethink thyself among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and hearken to His voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul; 3 that then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will He fetch thee. 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and He will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, that persecuted thee.” Devarim 30

    “43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants, and doth render vengeance to His adversaries, and doth make expiation for the land of His people.” Devarim 32

    Enough for now. Plenty more throughout Nach (Prophets and Scriptures).