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  • January 24, 2013

    Did the Armenian Genocide Inspire Hitler? – Turkey, Past and Future

    Hannibal Travis:

    … there is evidence that the massacre of the Ottoman Armenians helped persuade the Nazis that national minorities posed a threat to empires dominated by an ethnic group such as the Germans or the Turks. Furthermore, these minorities could be exterminated to the benefit of the perpetrator with little risk. Indeed, it was German officials who had smuggled out of the Ottoman Empire the leaders of the Young Turk regime, culpable for the deaths of over a million Armenians and a million or more other Christian minorities such as the Assyrians and Greeks. …

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  • Posted by Andrew Jaffee @ 2:57 am | 10 Comments »

    10 Comments to Did the Armenian Genocide Inspire Hitler? – Turkey, Past and Future

    1. CuriousAmerican says:

      Didn’t the ADL try and deny the Armentian Genodice

      It has been a long, hot, difficult summer for Abraham Foxman. Faced with the fight of his professional life, the indefatigable director of the Anti-Defamation League was forced into a rare and reluctant retreat by the unlikeliest of adversaries: an ethnic minority charging one of the world’s most famous Holocaust survivors with suppressing recognition of a genocide.

      For weeks, Foxman, 67, faced mounting criticism for refusing to back Armenian Americans in their quest to pass a congressional resolution recognizing as genocide the World War I-era massacre of Armenians at the hands of their Ottoman rulers. But after insisting that the ADL and the United States should not risk inciting Turkey, Israel’s most important Middle Eastern ally, by labeling the episode as genocide, he made a hasty — if less than contrite — retreat this week in the face of a potential mutiny from fellow Jews.

      “I didn’t make a mistake,” Foxman said Tuesday in an interview with the Forward. He added: “No Armenian lives are under threat today or in danger. Israel is under threat and in danger, and a relationship between Israel and Turkey is vital and critical, so yeah, I have to weigh [that].”

      For far too long, many Jewish groups have been asserting that the Holocaust of the Jews was unique.

      It was NOT.

      Only a madman would deny that the Holocaust occurred; and the world is full of madman. But the Holocaust, while it definitely occurred, was not unique.

      The mass murder of European gypsies, in terms of percentage, by the Germans may have equalled the percentage of Jews killed by Germans.

      The mass murder of East European Christians in absolute numbers, by the Soviets, exceeded the number of Jews killed in Holocaust.

      The mass murder of the Ukrainians by forced starvation during the collectivization campaigns of the late 20s and early 30s may equal the number of deaths of Jews during the Holocaust. Sadly, Stalin made sure that the security forces were heavily Jewish/albeit non-practicing, while the Army officers were heavily ethnic Christian/albeit non-practicing. He did this to play them off against each other. What the Ukranians saw, however, was that the security forces which took their food was heavily Jewish.

      This inflamed the Ukranians’ already notable anti-Semitism, and in retribution, the Ukrainian survivors hastened to turn Jews over to the Nazis in 1941.

      I have NO doubt that the Turkish Muslim genocidal actions against the Christian Armenians inspired Hitler.

      But the Anti-Defamation of B’nai Brith in the USA, saw otherwise. They denied the Genocide of the Armenians for political reasons.

      I am amused by this. This connection has been known since 1945.

      But some Jewish groups, such as the ADL, like to claim a uniqueness to the Holocaust of the Jews; a uniqueness which does not exist.

      Gypsies were murdered at much the same percentages.

      Ukrainians were murdered at much the same numbers.

      The number of African Blacks who died in the slave trade, during the 17th to 19th centuries may exceed 15 million.

      100 million Chinese may have been killed by Mao Tse Tung.

      Paraguayan males were almost exterminated – almost to the last man – during the War of the Triple Alliance.

      A different estimate places Paraguayan deaths at approximately 300,000 people out of its 500,000 to 525,000 prewar inhabitants. According to Steven Pinker the war killed more than 60% of the population of Paraguay, making it proportionally the most destructive war in modern times.

      Paraguay was not only defeated, but came close to being totally and completely ERADICATED. The men were almost totally wiped out. Because it occurred in South America, it has been ignored except by a few historians. Argentina,Uruguay (which were primarily white); and Brazil (which was lead by a white ruling class) set out to absolutely destroy Mestizo Paraguay.

      Even more ruthless, Argentina took almost all its black males and put them on the front lines. By 1872, between wars and the yellow plague, Argentina reduced its black population from 25% to the 2% it is, today. A double genocide. All of this done on purpose.

      There is a reason Argentina and Uruguay and white nations on a Mestizo continent.

      I could give others.

      I do NOT deny the Holocaust. It was vicious.

      Neither was it unique.

      The Armenian genocide inspired Hitler.

    2. yamit82 says:

      @ CuriousAmerican:

      Even though you use them interchangeably a Holocaust and Genocide are not necessarily the same.

      While mass murder and killings can be called a Holocaust it’s not the same as genocide a term invented especially for the Jews because there was no historical parallel in a nations attempt to eradicate a whole ethnic population because of who they were based on hatred ( Christian ) and racism. While the Germans killed many more people other than Jews they had no design to liquidate any other people in it’s entirety and acted on it. Even the Poles and the slaves were destined to be mostly enslaved and not totally liquidated. No ethic nationality lost to mass murder a third of their total numbers as did the Jews and if the Nazis were not defeated the numbers of Jews murdered would have equaled their accessibility to the Germans and their helpers (most of occupied European countries). They even manged to Murder Jews in North Africa. The Germans diverted resources needed in their own war effort towards the extermination of Jews. Murdering Jews for them was more impotant than winning the war or even saving German lives.

      That’s what made the Jewish Holocaust unique not numbers or compaisons with mass murder of other nationals and ethnicity’s.


      Raphael Lemkin, in his work Axis Rule in Occupied Europe (1944), coined the term “genocide” by combining Greek genos ( race, people) and Latin c?dere (to kill).

      Lemkin defined genocide as follows: “Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves.

      You are pushing your hatred of Jews to it’s outer limit. How many nationalities can you recall that have been accused of deicide?:

      Deicide is the killing (or the killer) of a god. The concept is applied to the crucifixion of Jesus specifically, but may be used to any act of killing a god, including a life-death-rebirth deity who is killed and then resurrected. In Christianity, the concept is notably used in the question of guilt associated with responsibility for the death of Jesus.

    3. Shy Guy says:

      yamit82 Said:

      Even though you use them interchangeably a Holocaust and Genocide are not necessarily the same.

      A distinctive reminder from Professor Bernard Lewis

    4. CuriousAmerican says:

      @ yamit82:
      No ethic nationality lost to mass murder a third of their total numbers as did the Jews and if the Nazis were not defeated the numbers of Jews murdered would have equaled their accessibility to the Germans and their helpers (most of occupied European countries).

      WRONG! The case of the Roma (Gypsies) comes to mind.

      The Nazi genocide of Gypsies was ignored by scholars until the 1980s, opinions continue to differ on its details. Some[vague] say that, proportional to their population, the death toll of Romanies (Roma (Romani subgroup), Sinti, and Manush) in the Holocaust was the largest of any group of victims. Others[who?] say that the genocide of these groups began later than the genocide of the Jews and that a smaller proportion was killed. Hitler’s campaign of genocide against the Romani population of Europe involved a particularly bizarre application of Nazi “racial hygiene” (or a type of selective breeding). Despite discriminatory measures, some Romani groups, including some of the Sinti and Lalleri of Germany, were spared deportation and death, the remaining Romani groups suffered much like the Jews. In Eastern Europe, Romanies were deported to the Jewish ghettos, shot by SS Einsatzgruppen in their villages or deported and gassed in Auschwitz and Treblinka.

      There was indeed, an intent to eradicate the Gypsies. Their losses, proportionally may have been higher than the losses of Jews.

      Since you do not accept goyische sources like Wikipedia, how about a more Jewish oriented source.

      Genocide of European Roma (Gypsies), 1939–1945

      The USHMM gives a lower figure of 25% but this is contested by others who way it is higher.

      Whatever figures you use … HOLOCAUST and GENOCIDE are proper terms for what happened to the Gypsies (ROMA).

      The numbers (by percentage) were at the level of Jews. Some say just slightly below, some say higher.

      It was motivated by racial hatred.

      I stand by my statement.

      The Holocaust/Genocide of the Jews was terrible BUT NOT UNIQUE.

      I do NOT deny the HOLOCAUST. I deny its uniqueness.

      The suffering of these Gentiles was no less awful than the suffering of Jews; and equally worthy of remembrance.

    5. CuriousAmerican says:

      @ yamit82:
      No ethic nationality lost to mass murder a third of their total numbers as did the Jews

      You better read up on Oliver Cromwell’s destruction of Ireland in the 17th century, where 2/3rds of the Irish Catholics may have been killed. If I remember correctly, you can check this out in Robert Kee’s IRELAND.

      Even Churchill, who was NO lover of the Irish, admitted that this embedded in the Irish centuries of resentment. He blamed England’s troubles in Ireland on the sins of Cromwell, even though Churchill admired Cromwell.

      You have better read up on the War of the Triple Alliance against the Paraguayans were the population of males came very close to being totally eradicated.

      You might want to check out the Conquest of the Desert in both Argentina and Chile were mass murder of large Indian populations was effected.

      The Holocaust was terrible but not Unique

    6. CuriousAmerican says:

      @ yamit82:
      That’s what made the Jewish Holocaust unique not numbers or compaisons with mass murder of other nationals and ethnicity’s.

      Here is something most people do not know, but I know because I study Latin American history.

      In 1810, Blacks were 25% of Argentina’s population .

      Today, they are around 2%

      How did this happen?

      During the Wars of Independence, blacks were purposefully used as cannon fodder.

      During the Wars with Paraguay, which was every bit as vicious as the American Civil War, blacks again were purposefully used as cannon fodder.

      During the 1871 Yellow fever epidemic in Buenos Aires, all yellow fever victims were confinded to the Black neighborhoods.

      The last resevoir of “blackness” were with the gauchos. These were drafted to fight the Indians in the Conquest of the Desert. As far as the Argentine whites were concerned, they wanted both to die. It was a double genocide, though the black genocide is far less known. The Argentines are just starting to deal with the genocide of the Indians.

      Today, Argentina is the whitest country in South America. A lot of that was effected by purposeful and bureaucratic murder.

      To reduce blacks in Argentina from 25% to 2% sounds like pretty impressive genocide to me.

      But the Argentines are still trying to deal with their genocide of the Indians. They have yet to begin assimilating that they were murdering blacks at the same time.

      The Argentines may be unique in this. They were running simultaneously effective genocides.

      And it worked.

      OKTOBERFEST IN ARGENTINA 8% or more of Argentina is German.

      While about half of Argentines have a small degree of Indian blood (a small quantum) – almost no one will admit it; and the country officially declare itself around 85%-90% white, which is a higher number than the USA or Canada.

      This is not so readily obvious because a lot of it is Mediterranean white, and opposed to Anglo, German, or Irish in the USA and Canada. (Though Argentina does have Germans, English, and Irish)

      On a genetic level Argentina is the whitest nation in the Americas, with 79% of the genome being European. This is the highest number in the Americas and may surpass some Europeans countries.

      Yet in 1810, Argentine whites were a minority. Double Genocides is how they accomplished this.


      Again check out.

      African-Argentinians, the forgotten genocide

      Argentinian founding father recast as genocidal murderer

      The Argentines have only started to admit this in the last 10 years. The internet exposed this. They kept it hidden for years.

    7. yamit82 says:

      CuriousAmerican Said:

      No ethic nationality lost to mass murder a third of their total numbers as did the Jews and if the Nazis were not defeated the numbers of Jews murdered would have equaled their accessibility to the Germans and their helpers (most of occupied European countries).

      WRONG! The case of the Romi (Gypsies) comes to mind.

      I never said or intended to convey that the Jews were the only victims of mass murder and killings. We were not and we would lose comparative sweepstakes in terms of numbers with other peoples. I never intended my comment to reflect anything to the contrary. When I said that the reason only a third of the Jews were exterminated by the Nazi and their helpers and that it was only a third because the Nazis lost the war,, I assumed it would be obvious as to what makes the Jewish Holocaust unique.

      I do believe if you thought you could get away with holocaust denial in print you would deny; but by your attempt to quantify the Jewish experience and to qualify by comparison with others who suffered you are back door denying what we claim makes our experience different from all others except as you reminded me the Romani (Gypsies)

      What was unique with the Jewish holocaust? The uniqueness of the Holocaust is not connected to anything that the Jews did or did not do; it is rooted with the Nazis and their accomplices.

      First of all, it was founded in law. The procedures undertaken to strip the Jewish people of Germany of their rights were all passed through the German equivalent of parliament, congress, whatever you want to call it. The systematic & bureaucratic process of denying them professional licenses, then the right to hold property, then the right to work at all was all done according to German Law. Even the eventual construction of the camps and their use in genocide occurred in the context of construction contracts, transportation arrangements, etc. The German chemical companies that made zyclon and other gases did so legally, above board, and relatively openly. Since the time of the Mongols no other civilization has committed mass murder so openly, and with such profound respect for order and law. This was not a rogue element of society.

      Secondly, the German people as a whole were complicit in the genocide. This was not a rogue element of society committing mass murder as some would have us believe, but a people systematically attempting to destroy another people. At the very least the German people tolerated this, at worst they assisted.

      By the time the war began there was no longer even an attempt to criminalize the victims of the holocaust. Simply being Jewish was enough. The Germans were much more likely to inform on hidden Jews than they were to shelter them. This was not just barbarism or cruelty, but systematic, even banal, murder by the state. As many as 55 million people died in the Second World War, and 30 or 35 million in Europe, of whom nearly 6 million were Jews. The Nazis oppressed and murdered a very large number of innocent human beings and that included a rather long list of “politicals” (communists, socialists, democrats, liberals, and even monarchists), “social deviants” (homosexuals, prostitutes, vagabonds, the chronically unemployed), “religious opponents” (Jehovah’s Witness, priests and ministers that took their religious beliefs seriously), common criminals, as well as the “racials” (slavs, gypsies or Romi peoples, Jews) and the “defectives” (those with physical or mental handicaps).

      The Jewish people have suffered pogroms and massacres before – but never like this, never on this scale, never applied to all.
      The mass murder planned in Shushan was never implemented but even so, it was localized to Persia . The Pharoah limited his killing to first-born sons and the Spanish Inquisition did not actually target Jews (who were supposed to all be gone from the area) but focused on ostensible Christian converts who retained Jewish beliefs and practises in secret. Like Bogdan Chmielnicki in the mid-17th century and the Legions of the Black One Hundreds (for example Kishinev, 1903) these attacks were geographically limited. To none of them did it matter that there were Jews living in Amsterdam or Thessaloniki.

      But to the Nazis all Jews were the same; all Jews were part of the same deadly enemy and all Jews had to be eliminated, from wherever they would hide. The Turkish massacre of Armenians was centered geographically in Anatoly province. Except for two limited operations in Istanbul in April 1915, Armenians living outside of the area of dispute were left alone. The Turkish authorities controlled Jerusalem until December 1917. While the brutal massacres were proceeding in Turkey, not a one of the residents of the Armenian Quarter – or any other Armenian living in the Land of Israel of any other part of the Turkish Empire were in danger for their lives. In this comparative context it is more similar to a big pogrom than to a Holocaust.

      Biafra, Rwanda, Cambodia are contemporary examples of civil wars, tribal conflicts (partially with religious and regional overtones) and, at least in the case of the last example, self-inflicted “auto-genocides” – a people killing itself as happened as you reminded Cromwell and the Irish. The 30 year war saw much mass killing on both sides.

      “What is unique is NOT the comparative suffering of the victims but the intentions of the perpetrators. The extermination of the Jews had no political or economic justification. It was not a means to any end; it was an end in itself. The killing of Jews was not considered just a part of the war effort, but equal to it; thus, resources that could have been used in the war were diverted instead to the program of extermination.

      “The struggle for world domination will be fought entirely between us, between Germans and Jews. All else is facade and illusion. Behind England stands Israel, and behind France, and behind the United States. Even when we have driven the Jew out of Germany, he remains our world enemy.

      – Rauschning,Hitler Speaks,p. 234

      “. . . the discovery of the Jewish virus is one of the greatest revolutions that has taken place in the world. The battle in which we are engaged today is of the same sort as the battle waged, during the last century, by Pasteur and Koch. How many diseases have their origin in the Jewish virus! … We shall regain our health only be eliminating the Jew.”

      – Adolf Hitler (quoted in Burleigh and Wippermann, Racial State, p. 107)

      With the possible exception of Gypsies, Jews were the only people killed for the “crime” of existing.”( Emil Fackenheim,)

    8. yamit82 says:

      My reply to curious is in the spam dump Pls retrieve and post.

    9. Max says:

      Of course the Holocaust was not unique. How about Cambodia for one?

      And the Poles , then the French were on the list, the plans were already drawn up. They almost went right away with the Poles but then decided it would be to much fuss and decided to wait until the Jews were finished with.

      But don’t give me that anyone here cares about any Holocaust anywhere – people who are full of hate and bigotry or simply political militarists care nothing about the suffering of other people- hate leaves no room for caring. Did any of you ‘experts’ actually read the individual narratives of any of the Armenian Genocide – listen to their sharings?
      How many here read Jeffrey Eugenides’ novel?

      The author here uses the Armenian Holocaust AS A WEAPON, he doesn’t care about the reality of what happened.

      The essence of Holocaust experience is an approach to survival, resilience, and dealing with adversity and evil. It’s abhorrent to see others use the suffering of any Holocaust as excuses to feed another evil.
      If you need someone to die for you , try Jesus. Isn’t that a Christian ideology?

      Strength, ferocity fortitude, resilience, compassion and love… and like that – these are the lessons of the Holocaust – to maximize all our best quality simultaneously. To be our best, not our worst or our one-dimensional.

      So the Jews are not unique either in being oppressed – try to show a little compassion for the oppressed Muslims of the world and you will not need so many missiles.
      Peace in one hand , war in the other – Moshe Ya’alon (an end product of the Holocaust – a kindred spirit) has it right.

    10. steven l says:

      For the Turks, they were infidels/subhumans therefore why talking about genocide!!!!!